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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I dont think that any Conservative would say that it is. Being that a huge percentage of the American population pays no taxes, or negative taxes (refunds) I would say that trying to raise the taxes on those that do while there is still an absurd amount of people that literally pay nothing is absurd.

    I am of the opinion that there should be as little tax for everyone as humanly possible. We didnt even have an income tax until 1913 and we did pretty well without it. Those were the days when balancing the budget was actually something people cared about.
    A refund isn't a negative tax it is an over payment of tax.

    Also, the people who don't pay income taxes fall into two groups the really rich and the really poor. The rich use shelters and the poor don't have money cause their poor.
    So if the Republican argument is the rich shouldn't have to pay taxes cause the poor don't I just have to say if you want money you get it from people who have it not those who don't.

  2. #62
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    A refund isn't a negative tax it is an over payment of tax.
    So, what do you call it when someone pays, for the whole year, 2,000 dollars in tax but get a refund for 3,500 or more? And dont say it doesnt happen....I happened to know someone personally that this is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Also, the people who don't pay income taxes fall into two groups the really rich and the really poor. The rich use shelters and the poor don't have money cause their poor.
    This is just typical wealth envy BS. You can look up some of the tax returns from the most wealthy people in the country and they pay more tax in a year than most people pay in a lifetime several times over.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    So if the Republican argument is the rich shouldn't have to pay taxes cause the poor don't I just have to say if you want money you get it from people who have it not those who don't.
    No, I am saying that we should have a fair tax system that doesnt punish people for making more income. Especially considering that the poor benefit to a horridly disproportional degree from it. What possible argument can you present to justify the position that people that went to school, worked hard, and continue to work hard to generate the lifestyle and financial security that they have should have to pay a much larger percentage of their income in taxes than someone that didnt, sits at home and watches Jerry Springer all day and collects welfare?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    So, what do you call it when someone pays, for the whole year, 2,000 dollars in tax but get a refund for 3,500 or more? And dont say it doesnt happen....I happened to know someone personally that this is the case.



    This is just typical wealth envy BS. You can look up some of the tax returns from the most wealthy people in the country and they pay more tax in a year than most people pay in a lifetime several times over.



    No, I am saying that we should have a fair tax system that doesnt punish people for making more income. Especially considering that the poor benefit to a horridly disproportional degree from it. What possible argument can you present to justify the position that people that went to school, worked hard, and continue to work hard to generate the lifestyle and financial security that they have should have to pay a much larger percentage of their income in taxes than someone that didnt, sits at home and watches Jerry Springer all day and collects welfare?
    Lol the rich pay a very low percent compared to working people. Romney didnt even pay 15% I pay.more than that.

    I love how you complain about class warfare while you employ it.

  4. #64
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Lol the rich pay a very low percent compared to working people. Romney didnt even pay 15% I pay.more than that.

    I love how you complain about class warfare while you employ it.
    Romney paid 3kk in taxes....how much did you pay?

    And feel free to expand on how " I am employing class envy" I will wait.

    Oh, just a FYI. Romey paying 15% and greater than the 0 or negative that you likely paid. Simple math and all that.



    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Constitutional Free Press on November 1, 2011
    Taxes have come to the forefront of debate lately, thanks to Obama’s children — the useful idiots the first thing about taxes if their liberal arts degree’s depended on it. They are only concerned about taxes as they apply to the rich … their knowledge begins and ends with this: The rich need to pay more taxes. You’ll see their signs, “eat the rich” or “make them pay.” So if you are unfortunate enough to engage with one of Obama’s children, be armed with the latest facts on the rich and taxes. From Michael Walsh at National Review:

    * In tax year 2009, the top 1 percent of filers — those “millionaires and billionaires” with adjusted gross annual incomes of more $343,927 whom the Occupy Wall Street rabble is demonizing — paid nearly 37 percent of federal income taxes.

    * The top 10 percent with incomes over $112,124 (say, a New York City cop and a teacher filing jointly) paid more than 70 percent of income taxes.

    * The top 50 percent (starting with princely incomes over $32,396) paid — wait for it — nearly 98 percent of all federal taxes.

    Here are a few more fun stats from the Tax Foundation … well … as fun as taxes can be:

    * In 2009, the top 1 percent of taxpayers—1,379,822 of them—paid more than the bottom 90% combined. Geographically, this is equivalent to a city the size of San Antonio, TX paying more in income taxes than every person living west of the Mississippi.

    * Likewise, the top 0.1 percent—138,000 taxpayers—paid a greater share than the bottom 75%. In other words, a city the size of Dayton, OH would have paid more than a country the size of Germany.

    Obama’s wealth envy campaign is based on fear, not facts.
    Yeah, the bottom 50% really pay THEIR fair share.....less than 2% of all income taxes. Thats fair. *rolls eyes*

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Romney paid 3kk in taxes....how much did you pay?

    And feel free to expand on how " I am employing class envy" I will wait.

    Oh, just a FYI. Romey paying 15% and greater than the 0 or negative that you likely paid. Simple math and all that.





    Yeah, the bottom 50% really pay THEIR fair share.....less than 2% of all income taxes. Thats fair. *rolls eyes*
    Cut spending raise taxes, or continue adding to the debt. It's just that simple. Crying about it won't help.

  6. #66
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Cut spending raise taxes, or continue adding to the debt. It's just that simple. Crying about it won't help.
    Repeating the same thing over and over again without offering a shred of support wont help your position any. I have repeatedly demonstrated how there is historical evidence that suggests cutting taxes increases revenue. You have not offered any rebuttal to that nor have you presented any evidence that supports your position. I am assuming that you are retracting your claims then.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Repeating the same thing over and over again without offering a shred of support wont help your position any. I have repeatedly demonstrated how there is historical evidence that suggests cutting taxes increases revenue. You have not offered any rebuttal to that nor have you presented any evidence that supports your position. I am assuming that you are retracting your claims then.
    You have done no.such thing. For every instance you have shown debt and deficits increased We want them to decrease. If you want to draw correlations that is certainly a big one.

  8. #68
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    You have done no.such thing. For every instance you have shown debt and deficits increased We want them to decrease. If you want to draw correlations that is certainly a big one.
    No. A little bit of actually reading someone elses position, letting it sink in, considering it, and then forming an opinion on it would show you that when Reagan cut taxes, revenue went up. It was his spending that lead to debt and deficits. Let me make it easier:

    Taxes get cut = Revenues to the treasury increasing
    Spending more money = More debt and deficits
    Revenues to the treasury increasing =/= more debt and deficits
    Therefore, Taxes get cut =/= more debt and deficits.

    Honestly, I am starting to think you are just trolling.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  9. #69
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    No. A little bit of actually reading someone elses position, letting it sink in, considering it, and then forming an opinion on it would show you that when Reagan cut taxes, revenue went up. It was his spending that lead to debt and deficits. Let me make it easier:

    Taxes get cut = Revenues to the treasury increasing
    Spending more money = More debt and deficits
    Revenues to the treasury increasing =/= more debt and deficits
    Therefore, Taxes get cut =/= more debt and deficits.

    Honestly, I am starting to think you are just trolling.
    Regan raised taxes too just different taxes than he cut. So you haven't shown that it wasn't the tax increases that caused the reavenue inclrease.

  10. #70
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Regan raised taxes too just different taxes than he cut. So you haven't shown that it wasn't the tax increases that caused the reavenue inclrease.
    What taxes specifically did he raise? Reagan drastically cut taxes, by 23%. After he cut taxes he signed legislature that closed many loopholes in the tax system. The closing of these "loopholes" is what liberals argue were tax increases. However, even with the closing of the loopholes, Reagan made a net tax decrease during his administration. So that even with these "tax increases" which was actually closing loopholes in the system, taxes during Reagan were still lower than taxes before Reagan and tax revenues still went up.

  11. #71
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Well what did they compromise on? Can't prove a negative. So say the compromised well where.
    Yes you absolutely can prove a negative, further the rules of ODN require to you to support all claims regardless of their positive or negative nature. So please support your claim now or retract it.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  12. #72
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Yes you absolutely can prove a negative, further the rules of ODN require to you to support all claims regardless of their positive or negative nature. So please support your claim now or retract it.
    I am not making a claim you are. You make the claim that Republicans wanted to compromise. So you prove it.

    ---------- Post added at 06:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    What taxes specifically did he raise? Reagan drastically cut taxes, by 23%. After he cut taxes he signed legislature that closed many loopholes in the tax system. The closing of these "loopholes" is what liberals argue were tax increases. However, even with the closing of the loopholes, Reagan made a net tax decrease during his administration. So that even with these "tax increases" which was actually closing loopholes in the system, taxes during Reagan were still lower than taxes before Reagan and tax revenues still went up.
    Debt and deficit went up too. Revenues went up because of deficite spending artificially stimulates the economy. defecite is a tax just a future tax.

  13. #73
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    I am not making a claim you are. You make the claim that Republicans wanted to compromise. So you prove it.
    Challenge to support a claim. Please show where I have made such claim. Further, be advised that making any future claims about "both sides being unwilling to compromise" without support will be a rule violation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin
    Revenues went up because of deficite spending artificially stimulates the economy.
    This is Keynesian nonsense, support that deficit spending increase government revenues.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  14. #74
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Debt and deficit went up too. Revenues went up because of deficite spending artificially stimulates the economy. defecite is a tax just a future tax.
    I echoe Squatch's challenge. Show that deficit spending increased gov. revenues.

  15. #75
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    I echoe Squatch's challenge. Show that deficit spending increased gov. revenues.
    Deficite spending puts more money in the economy thus causing both inflation and increasing economic activity. You draw the the conclusion that lower taxes lead to more revenue I draw the conclusion deficite spending increases revenue. We have the exact same circumstances as evidence. Under Regan the economy improved with deficite spending.

    ---------- Post added at 06:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. Please show where I have made such claim. Further, be advised that making any future claims about "both sides being unwilling to compromise" without support will be a rule violation.

    This is Keynesian nonsense, support that deficit spending increase government revenues.
    Well if you aren't making the claim that Republicans offered compromise then we are in agreement that they didn't. So is isn't a rule violation to suggest that Democrats didn't offer compromise or just Republicans? I would suggest your bias shows. The burden of proof lies with those who say compromise was offered whether that be Democrats or Republicans as a compromise was never reached in reality.
    Last edited by kevin; January 26th, 2012 at 06:59 AM.

  16. #76
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Deficite spending puts more money in the economy thus causing both inflation and increasing economic activity. You draw the the conclusion that lower taxes lead to more revenue I draw the conclusion deficite spending increases revenue. We have the exact same circumstances as evidence. Under Regan the economy improved with deficite spending.
    You made the claim above, support it please. Simply stating that it does so is not sufficient support for your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin
    Well if you aren't making the claim that Republicans offered compromise then we are in agreement that they didn't. So is isn't a rule violation to suggest that Democrats didn't offer compromise or just Republicans? I would suggest your bias shows. The burden of proof lies with those who say compromise was offered whether that be Democrats or Republicans as a compromise was never reached in reality.
    You misread the situation. I have made no claims either way. I am not maintaining here that Republicans did or did not offer a compromise. You made the claim that they did not and ODN rules state:

    Therefore the burden to support falls upon you.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  17. #77
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    You made the claim above, support it please. Simply stating that it does so is not sufficient support for your claim.

    You misread the situation. I have made no claims either way. I am not maintaining here that Republicans did or did not offer a compromise. You made the claim that they did not and ODN rules state:

    Therefore the burden to support falls upon you.
    Well I will only point out that no compromise was reached and as such the blame rests with both parties who did not reach compromise. I am not going to attempt to prove a negative.

    If you want to say one side or the other is more to blame show how compromise was offered.

  18. #78
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Spending and Taxes are two sides to the same coin. Also, you have shown no evidence that Tax cuts lead to higher revenue. Revenue went up more under Clinton and he raised taxes, and Revenue went down under The second Bush and he cut Taxes. Also, defecit went up under Regan and up under Bush.
    Reagan also actually raised taxes a couple times. Back then conservatives called him a traitor for it, but he saw what was happening to the deficits and did something to try and stem the tide.

    Kevin is right, the only way to tackle the deficit/debt is to both cut spending and raise taxes and to do it for quite a while. It is possibly detrimental to the economy, but I doubt it would actually have all that much impact. We have been tax cutting and increasing spending for many years and the economy marches to its own beat regardless, going up and down despite our rather consistent deficit spending by tax cutting and spending bumping.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  19. #79
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Hey Sig, can you point to a tax increase that led to higher revenues for the Federal government?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  20. #80
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    Re: Senate Democrats have failed their duty

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Well I will only point out that no compromise was reached and as such the blame rests with both parties who did not reach compromise. I am not going to attempt to prove a negative.
    Kevin: You have an open challenge to show that democrats offered a compromise solution to the budget debates. Please respond if you concede this challenge or not with a Yes/No. And If No, with your evidence that they did. Any other response or refusal to respond and I will give you a Trolling violation as per our board rules. If you do not intend to claim that the democrats offered a compromise, then Conceding the challenge is what you should do.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Sigfried; January 26th, 2012 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Clarification
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 
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