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  1. #1
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    Voter ID Laws...

    ID is required to verify who you are many times in one's life. All citizens and legal residents in the U.S. should have an ID of some sort.

    Voter fraud is still a big problem. Many jurisdictions do not require ID to vote. There is nothing wrong with trying to verify one's ID in order to vote. It is just another instance in which you must prove who you are.

    Here is the latest article I have found on this issue:

    Clyburn: Voter ID Laws Just Like Jim Crow:

    U.S. House Assistant Democratic Leader Jim Clyburn said voter ID laws in South Carolina and elsewhere are reminiscent of post-Reconstruction Jim Crow laws.

    Clyburn, D-S.C., and other voting rights advocates warn that laws requiring voters to present photo identification when they go to the polls could disenfranchise millions of Americans in the November elections. He says the laws are similar to the post-Civil War Jim Crow laws enacted in Southern states that imposed poll taxes, literacy tests and other roadblocks to prevent blacks from voting, McClatchy Newspapers reported Thursday.

    "It was effective then, and if we aren't vigilant, it will be effective today," Clyburn, who is African-American, said. "We must make sure that people are aware of the danger to our democracy."

    State Rep. Alan Clemmons, a Republican who helped develop the law, told McClatchy the law was "in no way" discriminatory.

    "Any ID that will get you on an airplane in the United States will get you into a voting booth in South Carolina," Clemmons said.

    A new report by the liberal think tank Center for American Progress criticized voter ID laws in South Carolina, Texas and Tennessee for not allowing young people to use college-issued student IDs.

    The report said about 25 percent of blacks don't have the types of photo IDs required by such laws, compared with 11 percent of all Americans.

    Source

    There is really no reason that someone in this country cannot get an ID. They should be required to vote.

    What are you thoughts?
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  2. #2
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Getting a photo id is easy....and it's cheap. You can use a state ID vs driver's license. IMO, those opposing ID checks want illegals and double votes to be counted for them.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    I think so long as you can establish that getting photo ID is indeed easy in that sate for people who want to get it, then its fine. If it can be shown there are significant barriers that would keep an eligible voter from getting ID, then it is a problem.

    In my state it can be an issue to get photo ID if you don't have your birth records or other sorts of identification and I can tell you from first hand experience having been in that position. Also here the DMV is still something of a Orwellian experience of long waits and somewhat inconvenient service times and payment methods (though its gotten a bit better).

    Generally, I'm fine with photo ID, but then again, I much much prefer voting by mail which we have here in Washington. It get my ballot, I take my time to fill it out thoughtfully, and then I send it in at my leisure. Good stuff. Once registered I keep getting my ballots regularly and every once in a while I have to re-register.

    If you combine an ID system like that, why not? It gives voters plenty of time to get their ID together and there are no obstacles (other than not having a mailing address) to your voting. (we still do have polls here, they just aren't used all that much anymore)
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  4. #4
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Getting a photo id is easy....and it's cheap. You can use a state ID vs driver's license. IMO, those opposing ID checks want illegals and double votes to be counted for them.
    I totally agree. There is no sane reason to be against requiring ID to vote.

    ---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I think so long as you can establish that getting photo ID is indeed easy in that sate for people who want to get it, then its fine. If it can be shown there are significant barriers that would keep an eligible voter from getting ID, then it is a problem.

    In my state it can be an issue to get photo ID if you don't have your birth records or other sorts of identification and I can tell you from first hand experience having been in that position. Also here the DMV is still something of a Orwellian experience of long waits and somewhat inconvenient service times and payment methods (though its gotten a bit better).

    Generally, I'm fine with photo ID, but then again, I much much prefer voting by mail which we have here in Washington. It get my ballot, I take my time to fill it out thoughtfully, and then I send it in at my leisure. Good stuff. Once registered I keep getting my ballots regularly and every once in a while I have to re-register.

    If you combine an ID system like that, why not? It gives voters plenty of time to get their ID together and there are no obstacles (other than not having a mailing address) to your voting. (we still do have polls here, they just aren't used all that much anymore)
    Good points. If one cares enough to vote, then they should care enough to get an ID to do so.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by onalandline View Post
    Good points. If one cares enough to vote, then they should care enough to get an ID to do so.
    Lets say hypothetically, that it is proven that a percentage of people who are indeed eligible are impeded from voting because of the ID requirement. (either they simply find it intimidation or they have difficulty meeting the state standard for photo ID but not for voter registration)

    What would you advocate...
    1. Making it easier to obtain ID such that the problem was mitigated
    2. Removing the requirement for ID
    3. Simply not have those people participate in elections
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  6. #6
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    In my state it can be an issue to get photo ID if you don't have your birth records or other sorts of identification and I can tell you from first hand experience having been in that position. Also here the DMV is still something of a Orwellian experience of long waits and somewhat inconvenient service times and payment methods (though its gotten a bit better).

    Generally, I'm fine with photo ID, but then again, I much much prefer voting by mail which we have here in Washington.
    Your state is a non-photo ID state. Voters must show ID, but that ID doesn't have to have a photo on it. Utility bills, bank statements, car registrations or any other government document (that have the voter's name and address) for example, are acceptable voter ID's.

    ---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 PM ----------

    Proper ID's to vote, are not difficult to get in ANY state of the US, in the year 2012. It's political mumbo-jumbo, nothing more.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Your state is a non-photo ID state. Voters must show ID, but that ID doesn't have to have a photo on it. Utility bills, bank statements, car registrations or any other government document (that have the voter's name and address) for example, are acceptable voter ID's.
    I know, but we still need photo ID to drive. When I first got here for college it was a bit of a hassle as I was poor and not well organized in my life yet or wise in the ways of the DMV office. I easily registered to vote though.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    ...well of course you need photo ID to drive. EVERY state requires that (to my knowledge), and they should. Driving is a privilege, not a right. If someone wants to drive badly enough, they will do what little it actually takes...to get that driver's license. And if they are not capable of going through the simple steps to do so, then they have no business being given the responsibility of driving a 3 ton motor vehicle in public.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    [/COLOR]Proper ID's to vote, are not difficult to get in ANY state of the US, in the year 2012. It's political mumbo-jumbo, nothing more.
    What i want to know is if it were, would you care?
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  10. #10
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    If voter ID's became too hard to get? Possibly...but I'd need to know how difficult. It seems too vague a statement to make.

    It's like saying "If something disappointed another person would you oppose it?" There just isn't enough to go on to make any meaningful judgement.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; April 6th, 2012 at 08:03 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Lets say hypothetically, that it is proven that a percentage of people who are indeed eligible are impeded from voting because of the ID requirement. (either they simply find it intimidation or they have difficulty meeting the state standard for photo ID but not for voter registration)

    What would you advocate...
    1. Making it easier to obtain ID such that the problem was mitigated
    2. Removing the requirement for ID
    3. Simply not have those people participate in elections
    I would have to ask questions first:

    1) Why are they intimidated?

    2) Why are they not meeting the standards?

    If you are a citizen or legal resident, there shouldn't be a problem.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Lets say hypothetically, that it is proven that a percentage of people who are indeed eligible are impeded from voting because of the ID requirement. (either they simply find it intimidation or they have difficulty meeting the state standard for photo ID but not for voter registration)
    There would have to be a substantial burden of proof met to satisfy me that, given our current bureaucratic systems in place to allow people relatively easy and rapid (within one day or less in almost every case) access to state-issued photo ID and the fact that everyone has to go through the same process to get it, there was actually something worthy of being called "intimidation" involved in the process of getting a photo ID. I mean, we'd have to be talking systematic hostility toward certain people or aggressive police outside turning "the wrong sort of people" away from the issuing authority. Just making somoene sit in a room and wait their turn like everyone else doesn't qualify in my book. So... what exactly do you mean when you mention "intimidation?"

    If you are a legal resident here and have the right to vote (i.e. you are a citizen), you have relatively easy access to every document you would need to get a state-issued photo ID. People who are naturalized citizens have already gotten their birth certificates and other papers in order, and people who were born in this country have only to go to the issuing authority and pay a modest fee for a copy of their birth certificate, which is often ready that very same day. If person legally entitled to vote were so inclined, he could probably get every piece of paper he needed from scratch in the same day and still have time to get to the ID issuing authority to get an ID card. I recently went through the process of getting a copy of my birth certificate, and it was trivially easy. The same with my license. It takes some time, sure, but if you're not willing to invest a few hours in getting what you need to vote, then you obviously don't care enough about the process to be allowed a say anyway.

    We have voter ID laws in Louisiana, and there are no problems of which I'm aware. Everyone knows that you go to the polls with your ID, and it's in and out, just like that. I know I feel a whole lot better knowing that it's that much harder for someone to commit voter fraud in my state because of the care taken to ensure that everyone who is legally entitled to vote doesn't have his or her voting power diminished by liars and cheats, who are usually just shills for some crooked politician anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    What would you advocate...
    1. Making it easier to obtain ID such that the problem was mitigated
    2. Removing the requirement for ID
    3. Simply not have those people participate in elections
    If there is a legitimate impediment, such as an unreasonably high fee (in excess of $50, say) to get an ID card, it is unreasonably difficult to procure the necessary confirmatory documents of one's identity, or the like, I would advocate streamlining the process to make it simpler and more affordable to get an ID if you want one and are willing to take the time to go get one.

    I would never be for removing the requirement, as I believe that on some level, anyone who really wants to remove or impede voter ID requirements is really interested in committing some sort of voter fraud or other electioneering shennanigans. There is no legitimate reason I can see to rescind or obstruct a requirement to show photo ID when voting except to make it easier to be dishonest or to allow people who should not be legally entitled to vote to do so. It's too easy for people who are legally entitled to vote to obtain a photo ID, and almost everyone who is here legally and participates lawfully in society has one anyway for the other many activities they engage in every day. Those few who don't should take the time to get one, since it's a fairly easy process and isn't all that expensive.

    And honestly, rather than remove the requirment for voter ID, I would rather exclude people who are unwilling to take even the modicum of effort it takes to get an ID from the voting process. If a person is unwilling to get a photo ID to ensure that everyone's vote is counted fairly and that only people who are legally entitled to vote can do so, then they obviously don't care enough about the laws and general good of the country to be allowed a say in its governance. I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over excluding people like that from the voting process. Rights come with responsibilities, and if you're not willing to do your part to ensure fair and unadulterated elections, then you are not upholding your obligations and don't deserve the rights that come with them. If you're not willing to go get an ID, which is a trivial process and serves many necessary daily functions outside of voting anyway, then you are probably not going to go to the ballot box on your own initiative anyway. People like that are usually being rounded up by some unethical politician's shills and promised favors, money, or other things in return for voting for the candidate who sponsors them... which is a violation of election laws anyway. Oh, they put a face on it and don't actually directly tell you who to vote for... but they will sure tell you who paid for all the stuff they're giving you as they pile you on the bus to go to the polls.. which, incidentally, is going to KFC after everybody votes...

    No ID, no vote. Make sure it's simple to get one for people who should have one, impossible for people who shouldn't have one to get one, and insist that everyone show that ID at the ballot box. That's my take on it.
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  13. #13
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    But there are people who simply would like there to be barriers, not just to deal with potential fraud but to put a kind of barrier that acts as a sort of skills test for voters with the idea that if you are too stupid or too lazy we don't want you voting.
    Personally, I *don't* want people that are stupid or lazy voting because it's going to be me that pays for their lazy, stupid asses to sponge off the next liberal politician they put into office because he promised to extend their benefits longer or give them more stuff. I personally feel that if you don't pay taxes and don't contribute in some way to society, you shouldn't be able to vote... but it's not my right to say whether or not someone who is legally entitled to vote can do so. I just continue to hope that their laziness and stupidity and apathy will keep enough of them away from the polls that those of us who *do* care about the country instead of being focused on what society owes them can outvote them.

    ---------- Post added at 10:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    No ID, no vote. Make sure it's simple to get one for people who should have one, impossible for people who shouldn't have one to get one, and insist that everyone show that ID at the ballot box. That's my take on it.
    Thanks for such a full answer, its what I was looking for to better understand where folks are coming from.

    for me, this is an issue where there seems a perfectly reasonable middle ground but there are two sides with ideological axes to grind and it makes coming to some common action kind of difficult because both sides deeply distrust the motivations of the other.

    On the no-ID side you have folks who's primary interest is to prevent the kinds of disenfranchisement that has been well documented in the past, and on the right you have people deeply concerned about voter fraud. For my part, I am interested in both. I don't sweat small scale fraud much, but organized fraud, which has happened and may still happen is real and a threat. I also am not too concerned about someone too utterly lazy to take a days effort to vote, but I am concerned about real efforts to block certain groups from the polls using red tape which has happened in our country on many occasions.

    Voting should be easy, and it should be honest.

    The problem is each side tends to see the other as being purely politically motivated, seeking to use their motivation as just a justification or shield to hide their real intent which is to wrest political control from the other side by any means available. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I think its not limited to one side or another, nor does it represent the heartfelt interest of the majority who champion for one or the other. I can read that distrust in your post Talhas. Just as much as you think the left wants to commit fraud, they think you really want to exclude poor and minority voters. I think you are both largely wrong in that regard.

    I think if conservatives would take some interest in making sure voting is easy, and liberals would take some interest in preventing fraud, we could get this stuff worked out without all the bickering.

    Personally, I'm just for balance. I'm not kept up at night because some individual manages to vote twice by filling out their grandmothers ballot. Nor am I worried that some lay about doesn't want to go to the DMV on a Saturday morning because they would miss out on the adventures of Cranberry Cow. But I do think we need to guard against organized voter fraud and against tactics designed to prevent people from voting who may simply be ignorant of the means to get the needed paperwork.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    I think if conservatives would take some interest in making sure voting is easy
    Voting is one of the most ridiculously easy things to do. Its so bloody easy I don't know how one could make it any easier? You show up to polling place, you vote. Registering to vote isn't hard either, its easy to find some activist who wants to register you to vote. In 2006 I was overwhelmed by "get out to vote" freaks that I started telling them to F*** off.

    Its easier than 99% of the things we do in life and to not vote is almost always because that person is lazy.

    You have to *try* to be disenfranchised from voting in this country.
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    You have to *try* to be disenfranchised from voting in this country.
    What if in the 2008 election some 3 million people reported not voting due to issues related to voter registration? Would you consider that a problem worth addressing?

    http://www.pewtrusts.org/news_room_detail.aspx?id=50434
    Washington, DC - 03/26/2009 - As many as three million registered voters did not cast a ballot in the 2008 General Election due to voter registration problems, suggests a survey cited today by Doug Chapin, director of Election Initiatives for the Pew Center on the States in testimony before the Subcommittee on Elections of the Committee on House Administration. The problem was most acute for younger voters and registered voters who moved less than a year ago, one in four of whom said that a problem with their registration was a major reason why they did not cast a ballot.

    The survey found that while most Americans who voted on Election Day had a positive experience, problems with election administration–including registration, polling place location, voter identification and long lines–affected millions of voters, and most significantly, were a major factor preventing as many as 38% of voters who registered but did not go to the polls to vote.

    Do we have evidence that some 3 million fraudulent votes were cast in the 2008 election? I've seen issues with dead people in registration rolls, but that is partly just a natural event. There were certainly some cases of registration fraud, but those were detected before going on the rolls and again no evidence they resulted in votes.

    I'm not saying either is no problem, but I'm saying both are concerns.

    Checking photo ID is not slow, but it does take additional time in registration and that can add to the problem of clogging up the lines and stations. You could have a photo ID but misplace your wallet on voting day (but that's not unique to photo ID of course). Again, not saying that means the costs outweigh the benefits of photo id voting, but can we agree they are concerns worthy of addressing rather than just dismissing as if it can't possibly have an impact?

    Again, I find the Wasthington system a good one. And it would be very compatible with photo ID if you could register at the DMV when you get a licence or at some office somewhere at your leisure. Plenty of time to sort that out and still get and fill out your ballot. And no lines etc.. You can have polls for backup or those without mail or just those who like voting that way and mitigate many of the more legit concerns about photo id registration issues. You do still have issues of possible fraud of course. But honestly it just hasn't been much of a problem here.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Being "difficult" to get is not a reason to not require voter ID's.

    The only valid reason is if it can be shown that Voter ID requirements are being used to discriminate or to purposely keep some citizen from voting.
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Being "difficult" to get is not a reason to not require voter ID's.

    The only valid reason is if it can be shown that Voter ID requirements are being used to discriminate or to purposely keep some citizen from voting.
    So we should not make any effort to make voting accessible?
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    So we should not make any effort to make voting accessible?
    "accessible" and "difficult" are two different prospects.

    Accessible means you have access. Which to me means voting booth near you.
    "difficult" means what it takes to be able to vote on the persons part. For example, being a U.S. citizen. It is "difficult" for a person to fulfill that, but with an open migration policy it is very accessible. (as an example).

    Point is.. voting is highly accessible to all and picture ID's will not effect that. If there was a major concern, I would be for giving them out for free.


    My personal choice in the matter would be to have a vote by phone or Internet system connected to your SS#. ..Like colleges do for scheduling classes. This is the modern Era, we don't need to be physically at a polling station, and invalid SS# could be identified, tracked etc. Also, you could report if your SS# was already used without your permission.
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    I still have not seen any valid reasons why someone, assuming they are eligible to vote, would not be able to obtain an ID, and use that ID to vote.
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    Re: Voter ID Laws...

    Quote Originally Posted by onalandline View Post
    I still have not seen any valid reasons why someone, assuming they are eligible to vote, would not be able to obtain an ID, and use that ID to vote.
    Okay, question. If you are to poor to own a car or transportation and to poor to travel anyways, why would you need to go to the trouble and expense (either in terms of actually paying for it or in terms of lost wages from when you could have been working) of getting a drivers licence or passport? That is the problem with requiring ID, people in the inner cities, who don't need to drive and who are often too poor to travel anywhere you need a passport to go do not have this identification and are thus barred from voting.


    This is from Wikipedia


    State-by-state requirements as of March 2012

    The statuses as of March 2012 of the 50 states regarding the required showing of ID at the polling place are as follows:[20]
    Strict photo ID (voter must show photo ID at polling place): Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Wisconsin. In addition, South Carolina and Texas have strict photo ID laws that must receive, but have not received, approval from the federal Justice Department; pending such approval, they require non-photo ID.

    Photo ID or alternative (voters at polling place must either show photo ID or meet another state-specific requirement, such as answering personal questions correctly or being vouched for by another voter who has voter ID): Alabama, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Louisiana, Michigan and South Dakota.

    Non-photo ID (state-specific list of acceptable forms of polling place ID, including a non-photo form): Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Utah, Virginia, Washington.

    No ID required at polling place: all other (19) states.


    Look at the states with the strictest laws

    They are:
    Georgia
    Indiana
    Kansas
    Mississippi
    Pennsylvania
    Tennessee
    Wisconsin
    (also, Texas and S. Carolina have laws pending)

    Look over the states on that list and you will see some similarities

    1. Most are conservative leaning (or at least swing states, and to my knowledge all have Republican governors (I am not totally certain))
    2. All have a significant population of visible minorities (black or hispanic), which usually vote democrat. That is the same group least likely to have IDs (due to higher instances of poverty and concentration in urban areas)
    3. None have any reason to require ID, this article explains that voter fraud, the only reason given for these ID laws, is a non-existent issue
    4. In all of these states, the republican party benefits from the reduced number of people able to vote.

    I think there might be a pattern there

 

 
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