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  1. #21
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    But how do we know they are not in league with the big O? (joking of course)
    I would say that if he pulled it off himself, he deserves the Presidency!

  2. #22
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    But how do we know they are not in league with the big O? (joking of course)
    It doesn't matter, because we all know Hawaii is not really a state (joking)

  3. #23
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Snope labels these claims as false: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp

    As for the argument that opening the birth certificate's PDF file in Adobe Illustrator reveals the presence of multiple layers, which proves that the image was altered, that claim was debunked by an Adobe-certified expert:

    It didn't take long for some of President Obama’s doubters to claim the long-awaited birth certificate posted online by the White House had been altered or might be a fake.

    But a leading software expert says there's no doubt about its authenticity, and he dismisses claims of fraud as flat-out wrong.

    The doubters have latched onto the idea that Adobe Illustrator — the premier program for computer graphic artists — "reveals" evidence of document manipulation in the Obama birth certificate. They note Illustrator reveals nine separate layers of the document, and claim it's "proof" the file has been altered.

    But that's not so, says Jean-Claude Tremblay, a leading software trainer and Adobe-certified expert, who has years of experience working with and teaching Adobe Illustrator.

    He said the layers cited by doubters are evidence of the use of common, off-the-shelf scanning software — not evidence of a forgery. "I have seen a lot of illustrator documents that come from photos and contain those kind of clippings — and it looks exactly like this," he said.

    Tremblay explained that the scanner optical character recognition (OCR) software attempts to translate characters or words in a photograph into text. He said the layers cited by the doubters shows that software at work — and nothing more.

    "When you open it in Illustrator it looks like layers, but it doesn't look like someone built it from scratch. If someone made a fake it wouldn't look like this," he said. "Some scanning software is trying to separate the background and the text and splitting element into layers and parts of layers."

    Tremblay also said that during the scanning process, instances where the software was unable to separate text fully from background led to the creation of a separate layer within the document. This could be places where a signature runs over the line of background, or typed characters touch the internal border of the document.

    "I know that you can scan a document from a scanner [and] most of the time it will appear as one piece, but that doesn’t mean that there's no software that's doing this kind of stuff," he said, adding that it's really quite common.

    There are also links to videos where he can show this. In addition, the source of these claims have been thoroughly debunked, concluding that

    Mara Zebest is correct; the Obama PDF has been digitally altered.

    But she is not correct that it is a forgery. It is instead an ordinary PDF created by scanning an ordinarydocument and optimizing it for the Internet. This process
    does digitally alter the document, but it does not change it. It does not turn truth into fiction; it does not change the meaning of words or move Honolulu to the coast of Kenya. And most importantly, it does not make the original document from which it was copied and altered suddenly disappear.
    The only genuine expert in digital image analysis that has publicly commented on the Obama PDF had an important and sensible observation as a preface to his discussion. Dr. Neil Krawetz observed that:

    Digital document analysis can detect manipulation, but it cannot determine whether the original subject is authentic. The authenticity can only be determined by the State of Hawaii, and they already said that it is authentic.
    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    There's also a link to a book that covers all the claims in great detail. All the original claims have been debunked and the argument gets smaller and ever more precise, assuming this is still a valid issue (using image processing to prove that something was fake isn't really very consistent) . But the point was that the State of Hawaii has certified it as a genuine copy of a genuine original.
    Could you elaborate on the evidence against the OP here?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #24
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Could you elaborate on the evidence against the OP here?
    Ah, I see this is a new conspiracy. My references were about the PDF. My apologies - please consider the extensive debunking removed from this discussion.

    By way of compensation, I tried to reproduce the results. Here the steps:

    1. Downloaded the file.
    3. Confirmed that it is the original (the meta-data matches http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../2739102/posts - a more exhaustive article with other conspiracies).
    4. Snipped out the top half of the word "Highway" from the article.
    5. Aligned the "a" character as precisely as I could over the word "Hospital", just as the article did.

    This produced the image below:

    http://imgur.com/cIPDy

    Now, you can see that the alignment of the "H" is not as far off as the article claims. Close inspection shows that she is off by at least several pixels, which is why I used my more accurate technique which more properly aligns the characters; even then I would've liked to have done some sub-pixel shifting but I did the best I could under a high zoon.

    As you can see from my own image the H is still off but that is probably due to the image not being straight in the first place. But it certainly isn't as far off as the article is claiming

    It's also a little suspicious that the EXIF meta data did not contain any timestamps, which means that even the photo might have been tampered with.

    Also, in the comments, there's an idea where the name of the Hospital might've been pre-typed to save time.

  5. #25
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Now, you can see that the alignment of the "H" is not as far off as the article claims. Close inspection shows that she is off by at least several pixels, which is why I used my more accurate technique which more properly aligns the characters; even then I would've liked to have done some sub-pixel shifting but I did the best I could under a high zoon.
    Yep, they are certainly much closer, and the As look a lot more similar than I thought they did originally, nice work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharmak
    Also, in the comments, there's an idea where the name of the Hospital might've been pre-typed to save time.
    Yeah, I remember that in my mind as he was making the argument. It would certainly seem reasonable that a few of these forms would have some pre-fill to save time. It wouldn't overcome the objection he makes that three or more typesets are used, but then he doesn't really support that claim in the article either.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  6. #26
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Yep, they are certainly much closer, and the As look a lot more similar than I thought they did originally, nice work.

    Yeah, I remember that in my mind as he was making the argument. It would certainly seem reasonable that a few of these forms would have some pre-fill to save time. It wouldn't overcome the objection he makes that three or more typesets are used, but then he doesn't really support that claim in the article either.
    Someone should compare a birth certificate from the same period to see if the artifacts are similar.

  7. #27
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by SharmaK View Post
    Someone should compare a birth certificate from the same period to see if the artifacts are similar.
    I believe they have, if it did not match the birth certificates from the time period, they would be saying that instead of mostly invalid arguments against font.

  8. #28
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtPeppers View Post
    I believe they have, if it did not match the birth certificates from the time period, they would be saying that instead of mostly invalid arguments against font.
    Invalid because why?

    ---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

    Also, WND (not always the best news source) did a comparison. http://www.wnd.com/2011/09/342937/

    I would take issue with several of their "discrepancies" including the stamp's placement and legibility, which are obviously explainable.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  9. #29
    barbarap
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    After all if the proof of the authenticity of his birth certificate, it is hard to believe there are still people trying to claim it is a forgery.


    Are those same people up in arms over Romney whose father was not born in the united states?

  10. #30
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarap View Post
    After all if the proof of the authenticity of his birth certificate, it is hard to believe there are still people trying to claim it is a forgery.
    What proof, could you provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarap
    Are those same people up in arms over Romney whose father was not born in the united states?
    Considering that your father's place of birth is not a Constitutional requirement for the Presidency, why should they be?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    What proof, could you provide it?

    Considering that your father's place of birth is not a Constitutional requirement for the Presidency, why should they be?
    I'm not going to provide the proof that is readily available to everyone here. The certificate has been authenticated several times over and those who believe it to be false are just sore losers. Google snopes or any other urban legend site for your proof.

    Sure, NOW you say that where ones father is born does not make a difference..but I remember a whole lot of complaining about obama's father who was not born in the united states........

  12. #32
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Invalid because why?
    Because none are demonstrated which do not have a more reasonable explanation that does not involve a massive conspiracy. Until evidence is provided, I defer to Ochams razor.

  13. #33
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarap View Post
    I'm not going to provide the proof that is readily available to everyone here. The certificate has been authenticated several times over and those who believe it to be false are just sore losers. Google snopes or any other urban legend site for your proof.
    Its not my job to do your homework for you, if you want to maintain that claim you need to support it. Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarap
    Sure, NOW you say that where ones father is born does not make a difference..but I remember a whole lot of complaining about obama's father who was not born in the united states........
    By me? Or are you generalizing? And if you are generalizing, what is your point here?

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtPeppers View Post
    Because none are demonstrated which do not have a more reasonable explanation that does not involve a massive conspiracy. Until evidence is provided, I defer to Ochams razor.
    Ocham's Razor is a principle, not a proof. You are free to follow it in forming your own opinions, but that is a not a valid proof as to a claim. I also would hardly call a couple of people creating a PDF document to be disseminated a "massive" conspiracy.

    And what more reasonable explanation can you offer for 3+ typesets being present?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Its not my job to do your homework for you, if you want to maintain that claim you need to support it. Challenge to support a claim.

    By me? Or are you generalizing? And if you are generalizing, what is your point here?

    Ocham's Razor is a principle, not a proof. You are free to follow it in forming your own opinions, but that is a not a valid proof as to a claim. I also would hardly call a couple of people creating a PDF document to be disseminated a "massive" conspiracy.

    And what more reasonable explanation can you offer for 3+ typesets being present?
    I'm not going to 'prove' something that is common knowledge and which has been proven over and over again. If you are that far removed from the news then you need more than anything I can offer to you.
    And my comments were generalizations, didn't mean you personally.

  15. #35
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Ocham's Razor is a principle, not a proof. You are free to follow it in forming your own opinions, but that is a not a valid proof as to a claim. I also would hardly call a couple of people creating a PDF document to be disseminated a "massive" conspiracy.

    And what more reasonable explanation can you offer for 3+ typesets being present?
    As you pointed out, that claim was unsupported. I am only using Ocham's razor as a baseline for which position to take after determining that the administrations position is simpler.

    I think you can say massive conspiracy because the state of Hawaii has confirmed its validity, so either they are lying or not. In one case the conspiracy can be labeled as such, in the other it doesn't exit.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtPeppers View Post
    As you pointed out, that claim was unsupported. I am only using Ocham's razor as a baseline for which position to take after determining that the administrations position is simpler.

    I think you can say massive conspiracy because the state of Hawaii has confirmed its validity, so either they are lying or not. In one case the conspiracy can be labeled as such, in the other it doesn't exit.
    The claim that the cert is valid is not unsupported. There is a mountain of proof out there. That people choose to ignore the facts does not mean the facts are not valid.

  17. #37
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarap View Post
    I'm not going to 'prove' something that is common knowledge and which has been proven over and over again. If you are that far removed from the news then you need more than anything I can offer to you.
    And my comments were generalizations, didn't mean you personally.
    First of all, when you see red text like this, it means moderators are speaking as staff members and not as debaters. Second of all, while some knowledge is so basic that doesn't need evidence to back it up (e.g., grass is typically green, the Earth is round, etc.) Barack Obama's birth certificate does not fall into this category. If you are going to say there is "proof" that puts the controversial topic of Barack Obama's birth certificate to rest, then you do indeed have to provide some support either in the form of a link, book citation, etc. Asking a member to "Google" anything in order to find the support for your argument is completely unacceptable.
    Last edited by czahar; April 18th, 2012 at 02:39 AM.

  18. #38
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarap View Post
    Are those same people up in arms over Romney whose father was not born in the united states?
    There's no legal issue where a presidential canidate's parents are born, as long as it's hopefully somewhere on earth-- otherwise I would imagine the UFO watchers might get serious about forming a voting block

    Andrew Jackson (1829-1837) is the only president born of two immigrants, both Irish.

    Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809), whose mother was born in England,

    James Buchanan (1857-1861) and Chester Arthur (1881-1885), both of whom had Irish fathers,

    Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921) whose mother was born in England.

    Herbert Hoover (1929-1933),mother were born respectively Canada
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  19. #39
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Evan if his birth certificate is fake it dosen't matter now because im pritty shure he is not gunna get re elected for a second time.

  20. #40
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    Re: President Obama's Birth Certificate

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtPeppers View Post
    As you pointed out, that claim was unsupported. I am only using Ocham's razor as a baseline for which position to take after determining that the administrations position is simpler.
    Well to take the extra step and click the link in the article: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/...e_obvious.html

    You will find evidence that at least three type sets are used. What explanation for that is there?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


 

 
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