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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Race was never part of the definition of marriage, which has almost universally been defined as a social union between a man and a woman. The two spouses being of the same race was simply a cultural characteristic in certain times and places, and irrelevant to the defining factor of sex. To say that two men or two women might be "married," is not simply a cultural variation, but a complete re-definition of the word, and thus nonsensical.
    One man and many women has been a common form of marriage for thousands of years.

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  2. #22
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    I appreciate what you're trying to do, but Zhav's not simply saying someone is a bigot for opposing gay marriage. He's saying someone is an "irrational bigot". I personally think his wording is a tad redundant, as I've never heard of anyone referred to as a "rational bigot", but in order to play devil's advocate in this debate, you would have to argue that your side is rational as well as non-bigoted.
    Yep. You are right. But then this is really just another gay marriage debate thread - nothing more. Going by the title, I thought that it had a special focus.

    He might as well have necro'd an old gay marriage debate thread.

    ---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    One man and many women has been a common form of marriage for thousands of years.
    If you are forwarding that as a reason to oppose gay marriage, you are likewise engaging in the appeal to tradition fallacy.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Yep. You are right. But then this is really just another gay marriage debate thread - nothing more. Going by the title, I thought that it had a special focus.

    He might as well have necro'd an old gay marriage debate thread.

    ---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------



    If you are forwarding that as a reason to oppose gay marriage, you are likewise engaging in the appeal to tradition fallacy.
    No just pointing out that the phrase one man one woman as the only definition is not true, and putting traditionally or majority doesn't make it true. Polygamy is practiced all over the world.

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  4. #24
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    One man and many women has been a common form of marriage for thousands of years.

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    Actually, one husband with one wife and several mistresses would be more accurate, but either way, each individual union in the case of polygamy is one man and one woman. Notice how it is not a union between any two men or any two women.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Actually, one husband with one wife and several mistresses would be more accurate, but either way, each individual union in the case of polygamy is one man and one woman. Notice how it is not a union between any two men or any two women.
    Sometimes there are only two women sometimes more.

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  6. #26
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    He might as well have necro'd an old gay marriage debate thread.
    According to his OP, that seems to be exactly what it is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    We've done this a few times here on ODN, but there are some new members and perhaps some fresh perspectives.
    In other words, he's bringing up an issue that has been argued many times in the past, and seeing if some of the new members can contribute anything new to it. That's the way I interpreted that sentence at least.

  7. #27
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    The topic of the debate: There is no argument against gay marriage that is not soundly rooted in irrational bigotry. If you disagree, you have to show some sort of legitimate reason for being against it that doesn't invoke a special pleading, show unspeakable bigotry, or invoke some other form of fallacious reasoning. If your argument matches one of the arguments on the list... well, all I can say to you is "good luck".


    Have you read The Future of Marriage by David Blankenhorn? Even same-sex marriage proponents describe Blankenhorn as "perhaps the most thoughtful opponent of gay marriage", "a leading intellectual opponent of same-sex marriage", whose "view was never grounded in anti-gay attitudes" (ibid).

    Now, I've never read it. And I don't really have a position on same-sex marriage (though my libertarian leanings make me suspicious of same-sex marriage bans). But if you can't find arguments against SSM that aren't rooted in bigotry, it's not because they don't exist; it's because you aren't seeing them.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post


    Have you read The Future of Marriage by David Blankenhorn? Even same-sex marriage proponents describe Blankenhorn as "perhaps the most thoughtful opponent of gay marriage", "a leading intellectual opponent of same-sex marriage", whose "view was never grounded in anti-gay attitudes" (ibid).

    Now, I've never read it. And I don't really have a position on same-sex marriage (though my libertarian leanings make me suspicious of same-sex marriage bans). But if you can't find arguments against SSM that aren't rooted in bigotry, it's not because they don't exist; it's because you aren't seeing them.
    All arguments against same sex marriage are based in bigotry. Blankenhorns arguments are bigotry as well.

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  9. #29
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post


    Have you read The Future of Marriage by David Blankenhorn? Even same-sex marriage proponents describe Blankenhorn as "perhaps the most thoughtful opponent of gay marriage", "a leading intellectual opponent of same-sex marriage", whose "view was never grounded in anti-gay attitudes" (ibid).

    Now, I've never read it. And I don't really have a position on same-sex marriage (though my libertarian leanings make me suspicious of same-sex marriage bans). But if you can't find arguments against SSM that aren't rooted in bigotry, it's not because they don't exist; it's because you aren't seeing them.
    So you're essentially saying that because one group (a group whose conservative leanings probably make it more sympathetic to gay marriage opponents) thinks one opponent of gay marriage is "thoughtful", that there are, in fact, good arguments against gay marriage?

  10. #30
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    So you're essentially saying that because one group (a group whose conservative leanings probably make it more sympathetic to gay marriage opponents) thinks one opponent of gay marriage is "thoughtful", that there are, in fact, good arguments against gay marriage?
    No. I'm saying that when a person's opponents characterize his argument as not being based on bigotry, then maybe there's good reason to think that his argument isn't based on bigotry. How in the world you go from, "Hey, look, a bunch of people think this guy gives a good, non-bigoted argument against SSM" to "THE FACT THAT THEY THINK HE'S THOUGHTFUL MEANS HIS ARGUMENT IS GOOD WITH 100% CERTAINTY"? Are you that incapable of understanding arguments?

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    All arguments against same sex marriage are based in bigotry. Blankenhorns arguments are bigotry as well.

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    Do you know Blankenhorn's arguments? Have you read them?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  11. #31
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    No. I'm saying that when a person's opponents characterize his argument as not being based on bigotry, then maybe there's good reason to think that his argument isn't based on bigotry. How in the world you go from, "Hey, look, a bunch of people think this guy gives a good, non-bigoted argument against SSM" to "THE FACT THAT THEY THINK HE'S THOUGHTFUL MEANS HIS ARGUMENT IS GOOD WITH 100% CERTAINTY"? Are you that incapable of understanding arguments?
    Yes, I'm THAT incapable of understanding arguments.

    Seriously, though, what I'm asking is how one conservative group's belief in the "thoughfulness" of Blankenhorn's argument suggests that there are non-bigoted arguments (not necessarily his) opposed to gay marriage.

  12. #32
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    Seriously, though, what I'm asking is how one conservative group's belief in the "thoughfulness" of Blankenhorn's argument suggests that there are non-bigoted arguments (not necessarily his) opposed to gay marriage.
    What does conservative/liberal matter? Isn't this about pro-SSM versus anti-SSM? Or are you suggesting that conservative homosexuals are so biased by their conservatism that they will overlook an anti-SSM argument's bigotry?

    ...in fact, you're suggesting that they're so biased that they would actively lie and declare that the bigoted argument is free of bigotry.


    I'm saying that if multiple pro-SSM advocates say that a particular anti-SSM proponent gives thoughtful, non-bigoted arguments against SSM, maybe you should check that advocate's arguments out before flatly declaring that all anti-SSM arguments are bigoted. I mean, if you reject pro-SSM advocates' characterizations of the bigotry of an anti-SSM argument, won't you a fortiori reject anti-SSM advocates' characterizations of the bigotry of an anti-SSM argument? So what's the point of asking them to contribute to this thread???
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  13. #33
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    If humanity is a product of evolution, that is, self-generated, I see no reason whatsoever why marriage should not be exactly what humanity wants it to be at any given time. Humanity is its own god, its own arbiter of good and evil, and can decide for itself either by employing consensus, majority, vociferous minority, or whichever has the greatest clout at the time.

    Marriage could be a relationship between one man and one woman, any variety of man/woman multiples, man and man, man and dog, man and rabbit, man and carrot, man and baby, man and keyhole, anything man wants to imagine. No holds barred. Whatever takes one's fancy and is made acceptable by consensus, majority, or vociferous minority - or even blackmail, persecution or other threat. In an Alice-in-Wonderland world where words are defined by what I want them to mean, the more people I can get on board to back my definition of any given term, the greater chance it has of general acceptance. Let marriage be whatever anyone fancies at any given time, and can get enough backing for to allow/impose general acceptance. What's wrong with that?

    On the other hand, if God created mankind, then it is God's definition of marriage that stands. One man and one woman for life. Unarguable.

    Genesis 2:24

    For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


    I am with those who belong to the latter camp.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  14. #34
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    No. I'm saying that when a person's opponents characterize his argument as not being based on bigotry, then maybe there's good reason to think that his argument isn't based on bigotry. How in the world you go from, "Hey, look, a bunch of people think this guy gives a good, non-bigoted argument against SSM" to "THE FACT THAT THEY THINK HE'S THOUGHTFUL MEANS HIS ARGUMENT IS GOOD WITH 100% CERTAINTY"? Are you that incapable of understanding arguments?

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------



    Do you know Blankenhorn's arguments? Have you read them?
    Why haven't you given these not bigoted arguements of his and we can all decide. As it stands I have not heard an arguement for why some citizens don't deserve equal treatment under the law that isn't based on bigotry.

  15. #35
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    None of which has anything to do with the reasons that some gays oppose gay marriage.
    Wow. You write THIS and accuse ME of not wanting to take the discussion seriously? Since you've made a claim without any evidence behind it, then all I need to refute it is a counter claim without any evidence. So what I said is based on the sentiment behind gays opposing marriage and their stance really does fall on the side of bigotry.

    Please.

    The op is serious. The image simply takes the claims and adds a refutation of them into the claim. It's like you saying "I embrace atheism because ignoring the teachings of Christ and going to hell is what I'm all about." OF COURSE it's not what you LITERALLY believe. But it's also expresses your stance against atheism. No one here is going to say "Wait... Apok's not an atheist... and if he were, why would he believe in hell??? I'm so confused..." I It's not a "farce" and nor does it mean you're not interested in a serious discussion. And nor do I believe for a moment that I'm telling you something you don't already know. So I don't know why writing something sarcastically has earned the wrath of Apok, but you're certainly wrong about me not wanting to discuss it seriously.

    ---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Marriage could be a relationship between one man and one woman, any variety of man/woman multiples, man and man, man and dog, man and rabbit,
    Comparing gay marriage to beastiality is the definition of BIGOTRY. Also, look up the slippery slope fallacy, please.

    ---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    I'm saying that if multiple pro-SSM advocates say that a particular anti-SSM proponent gives thoughtful, non-bigoted arguments against SSM,
    It is possible to word bigoted arguments in a highly respectful manner. For example, there were southerners who didn't hate blacks... who legitimately wanted to help them to not starve to death and to have jobs... but who also wanted to make sure they weren't equal to whites. I;m not saying your author is so overtly bigoted. I'm saying that his reasons are still firmly rooted in bigotry. No matter how respectfully they're presented doesn't change things.

  16. #36
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric;497472 quote

    Comparing gay marriage to beastiality is the definition of BIGOTRY. Also, look up the slippery slope fallacy, please.
    Please tell me exactly, and in which words, I made a comparison between gay marriage and bestiality. As far as I am concerned I said that a humanistic concept of marriage can be whatever humanity requires INCLUDING examples a,b,c, etc. - whatever floats humanity's boat at any given time. Offering examples may invite comparison, but any actual comparison is made by the reader, not by my list of examples. Any comparison is yours and yours alone and therefore any bigotry is likewise yours. Please brush up on your comprehension and general literacy.

    As for your advice to look up the slippery slope fallacy, would you please be more specific. I have no idea how it could apply to my post.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  17. #37
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Please tell me exactly, and in which words, I made a comparison between gay marriage and bestiality. As far as I am concerned I said that a humanistic concept of marriage can be whatever humanity requires INCLUDING examples a,b,c, etc. - whatever floats humanity's boat at any given time. Offering examples may invite comparison, but any actual comparison is made by the reader, not by my list of examples. Any comparison is yours and yours alone and therefore any bigotry is likewise yours. Please brush up on your comprehension and general literacy.

    As for your advice to look up the slippery slope fallacy, would you please be more specific. I have no idea how it could apply to my post.
    One of the common bigoted arguements against providing equal protection to homosexuals under the law is that it will force the state to recognize legal contracts between humans and animals and adults and children. These things are not true, and meant to turn citizens against homosexuals for being pedophiles. It is an old tactic, and it works well.

    I do think that people are getting wise to the trick. I mean which is the more dangerous place for your kid? A gay wedding, a Penn State football camp or Catholic Alter boy training?

    The true face of hate and evil is becoming more and more clear.

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  19. #38
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    One of the common bigoted arguements against providing equal protection to homosexuals under the law is that it will force the state to recognize legal contracts between humans and animals and adults and children. These things are not true, and meant to turn citizens against homosexuals for being pedophiles. It is an old tactic, and it works well.

    I do think that people are getting wise to the trick. I mean which is the more dangerous place for your kid? A gay wedding, a Penn State football camp or Catholic Alter boy training?

    The true face of hate and evil is becoming more and more clear.
    What humanity without God decides concerning marriage is theirs and theirs alone to arbitrate. There may well be bigotry and inequality in how humanity arbitrates.

    But that is not my argument.

    My argument concerns whether or not God is our Creator. If He is, then it is His right alone to define what constitutes marriage. If He is not, and we are self-generated, then humanity has every right fight it out between themselves. And good luck to you! I am not going to involve myself in lesser-of-evils arguments.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  20. #39
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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    What humanity without God decides concerning marriage is theirs and theirs alone to arbitrate. There may well be bigotry and inequality in how humanity arbitrates.

    But that is not my argument.

    My argument concerns whether or not God is our Creator. If He is, then it is His right alone to define what constitutes marriage. If He is not, and we are self-generated, then humanity has every right fight it out between themselves. And good luck to you! I am not going to involve myself in lesser-of-evils arguments.
    God?

    The arguement for generic God barely holds water and relies on logical tricks. The argument for any specific God such as Jesus or Allah or Shiva all fall apart as primitive stories with no more validity than a modern Thor commic book. Is Thor a real God or a commic book character?

    So please people lets not own slaves or rape to get our spuses because Thor or Zeus or Jesus told us it is ok.

    At a certain point these arguementative tricks only become a tool of true evil that is used to harm real people.

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    Re: The argument against gay marriage is bigotry

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    God?

    The arguement for generic God barely holds water and relies on logical tricks. The argument for any specific God such as Jesus or Allah or Shiva all fall apart as primitive stories with no more validity than a modern Thor commic book. Is Thor a real God or a commic book character?

    So please people lets not own slaves or rape to get our spuses because Thor or Zeus or Jesus told us it is ok.

    At a certain point these arguementative tricks only become a tool of true evil that is used to harm real people.
    Fine by me. Please help yourself and see where your godlessness gets you and society at large.

    As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord - the Creator of heaven and earth and all that is in it.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

 

 
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