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  1. #241
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    Mican, you are not making the claim that Darth Vader is the cause of an action that occurs in external reality. You are, however, making that claim for God.
    NO I AM NOT! I looked over my last three posts and in each of them I said I am not making the case that God exists.

    You apparently are not reading my posts very carefully.



    ---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Are you saying that from God's perspective, God is illogical? He is doing an act while not doing an act? If so, God is impossible.
    No. I'm saying from God's perspective, there is no act.

    It's only from our linear-time perspective that something at first did not happen and then later on did happen. From God's non-linear-time perspective, there is no state of something happening that had not happened before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    The only way to allow God is to dismiss logic. And that means God can exist while not existing.
    You are looking at the same thing from two different perspectives and that's why you getting two different, seemingly contradictory, results. If you limit yourself to just one perspective, there is no contradiction.
    Last edited by mican333; November 5th, 2012 at 01:49 PM.

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  3. #242
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    No. I'm saying from God's perspective, there is no act.

    It's only from our linear-time perspective that something at first did not happen and then later on did happen. From God's non-linear-time perspective, there is no state of something happening that had not happened before.
    This is a much better way of explaining this...So God transcends time. Much more eloquent than how I was trying to explain it.

  4. #243
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    No. I'm saying from God's perspective, there is no act.
    What does that mean? From God's perspective God is a deadbeat who doesn't act, while from our perspective God not only acts but intelligently designs a Universe? How is acting a matter of perspective? Isn't it the case that God either acts or doesn't act?

    You are looking at the same thing from two different perspectives and that's why you getting two different, seemingly contradictory, results. If you limit yourself to just one perspective, there is no contradiction.
    Well the problem is I don't think they're seemingly contradictory. If God is limited by logic (and we assume that He is) then God either acts (and exists in different states) or doesn't act. We can have different perspectives but both can't be right at the same time. Thus, either God exists in multiple states of affairs and does act and he's in infinite regress trouble (and his perspective is incorrect) OR God doesn't act and is a deadbeat who fails to create worlds and our perspective is wrong.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  5. #244
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    EDITED: because EVERYTIME I quote someone this dang thing seems to freak the fart out. This is a direct reply back to Michael.


    That to me seems vain. Why must there be something after this? I think that many lives get cut far too short, but that's life. We have no control over anything. Live it while you have it. When it's over it is done. I chose to die with no regrets. When I kick off I can be happy I have had a full life....even if I die right now.

    I don't need Atheism to not believe in things I cannot see. You don't have to be an Atheist to no believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, or Unicorns. I think that people that yearn for something outside of this existence tend to be weak minded and unable to cope with life, thus they find themselves happier filling their heads with imaginary places to help escape the reality of what is. It's the corner stone for almost all religion. The promise of something in the later for servitude now. I can think of nothing as hollow or empty as that.

    In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here.

    Rogue Cardinal, Member of the God-Awful Atheist Syndicate


  6. #245
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    I think that people that yearn for something outside of this existence tend to be weak minded and unable to cope with life, thus they find themselves happier filling their heads with imaginary places to help escape the reality of what is.
    See that is what atheists just don't understand it is not about ones self. Your views are selfish and egotistic. The belief in not believing in anything. How can you understand the world when you restrict it and confine it to materialism, and self ego. What are you so afraid of?

    As for weak minded....Actually the smartest man in the world with a IQ measured between 195-210 is a non religious theist.

    When I kick off I can be happy I have had a full life....even if I die right now.
    Yes its all about you isn't it?

  7. #246
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    See that is what atheists just don't understand it is not about ones self. Your views are selfish and egotistic. The belief in not believing in anything. How can you understand the world when you restrict it and confine it to materialism, and self ego. What are you so afraid of?

    As for weak minded....Actually the smartest man in the world with a IQ measured between 195-210 is a non religious theist.


    Yes its all about you isn't it?
    Atheists don't restrict the world to materialism. If there's some evidence of the existence of a non-material realm, we're more than happy to view it, consider it, and conclude from it.

    At the same time, RC wasn't at all wrong. He (just like me) is routinely exposed to theists (mostly Christians and Muslims) who say "If there's no god, what happens after we die? Don't you want to live forever? What's the point of it all?" And this seems to be the most popular theist "argument" that I've seen. It's very much an indication that religion's popularity has a lot to do with wishful thinking.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  8. #247
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    See that is what atheists just don't understand it is not about ones self. Your views are selfish and egotistic. The belief in not believing in anything. How can you understand the world when you restrict it and confine it to materialism, and self ego. What are you so afraid of?

    As for weak minded....Actually the smartest man in the world with a IQ measured between 195-210 is a non religious theist.


    Yes its all about you isn't it?
    MY life is all about me. That's why it's called MY life. Not OUR life. I have to be happy with how I live it. Now the fact that I am in a huge public service and that my whole career is about the service of others....would lead me to think it's not ALL about me. I give a ton of my life to others. So I'm not nearly the egotist you might think me to be....or any other atheist for that matter.

    I have no idea how you could conclude that I'm afraid of anything. My fear of anything left when I left the church and god behind. I'm free and way better for it.

    The belief in something, in which you have no evidence for, just to placate yourself and find solace outside of this world....is utter ridiculous and requires the type of logic of a madman. You wouldn't apply that logic to any other aspect of your life.

    How vain could you be to yearn for something beyond this world....and for whom? For yourself. Who is the egotist now?

    you will also note that your smartest man in the world is too afraid to apply his logic to the religion itself and despises....as I do....dogmatic thinking. So it's no wonder he has a belief in "god" but no religion. He is weak minded with all that ability to not force himself past the once obstacle left in his way....god.

    In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here.

    Rogue Cardinal, Member of the God-Awful Atheist Syndicate


  9. #248
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Thus, either God exists in multiple states of affairs and does act and he's in infinite regress trouble (and his perspective is incorrect) OR God doesn't act and is a deadbeat who fails to create worlds and our perspective is wrong.
    Well, if God exists than time is ultimately non-linear and our experience of it is ultimately an illusion (we are not experiencing reality as it really is) and therefore our perspective is wrong.

    I believe in this debate we are accepting the existence of God hypothetically and given that perspective (and I'm not saying it is the correct-in-reality perspective but just one we are approaching this issue from), God doesn't act.

    If we want to answer from the other perspective and say that time is linear, then God does act. But I believe we were approaching this issue from the other perspective so I will forward that answer.

    Another way to put it - If time is linear then God acts and if time is not linear then no one acts.
    Last edited by mican333; November 5th, 2012 at 09:07 PM.

  10. #249
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Mican, the fact is the ship is moving. Direction is relative. That's why it makes sense to say the ship is going and to say it's coming. But they agree that, relative to the Earth, the ship is moving. That question is necessarily true or necessarily false; not a matter of perception.

    I can't see how you can apply it to god. We are talking about a sentient God who (if he does act) acts intentionally. How is it possible for god not to act intentionally from his point of view but to act intentionally from ours? It makes completely no sense to me.

    In fact, your analysis of this seems to be a concession to the atheist argument here. If God (from his point of view) doesn't act and is static then intelligence and sentience are out the window and we can comfortably reduce God to an uncaused (and equally static) non-sentient and non-intelligent entity. From the entity's perspective it's perfectly static and has the same (unchangeable) attributes in all states (which is a single state of course, for the entity) and from ours it's acting and we call it God. Taking your outlook of the whole thing, even if there existed direct evidence of God's acting, it would only be our own perspective of something that need not be god at all. You have just destroyed God.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Your both apostates aren't you?

  12. #251
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Your both apostates aren't you?
    LOL what does that have to do with anything?

    (Yes, we are)
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  13. #252
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Your both apostates aren't you?
    Guilty as charged. You say apostate....I say enlightened. hehhehehehehehehe

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  15. #253
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    MY life is all about me. That's why it's called MY life. Not OUR life. I have to be happy with how I live it. Now the fact that I am in a huge public service and that my whole career is about the service of others....would lead me to think it's not ALL about me. I give a ton of my life to others. So I'm not nearly the egotist you might think me to be....or any other atheist for that matter.
    Thats a whole lot of I's. Public service is a job but the need to express that you help others is about you(self, ego, etc). Your last comments were incredibly egotistical. Especially the part claiming all theists are weak minded etc.

    I have no idea how you could conclude that I'm afraid of anything. My fear of anything left when I left the church and god behind. I'm free and way better for it.
    Because I'm psychoanalyzing your comments, you seem afraid of something. Maybe your former religious beliefs. Just because your religion was wacky doesn't mean you should throw god out the window.
    The belief in something, in which you have no evidence for, just to placate yourself and find solace outside of this world....is utter ridiculous and requires the type of logic of a madman. You wouldn't apply that logic to any other aspect of your life.
    I came to the conclusion of God logically. Its the first philosophy actually. I feel God in my heart, and when I do bad things I feel guilty. As a being I realize I exist, and then I ask why I exist, how I exist. God is a natural conclusion.
    How vain could you be to yearn for something beyond this world....and for whom? For yourself. Who is the egotist now?
    Ah turning the question back at me huh? That's fair. Going all pascals wager on me! Well I don't yearn for something. Honestly I'm just curious. When a loved one passes away I can comfort others by saying they are in a better place.
    you will also note that your smartest man in the world is too afraid to apply his logic to the religion itself and despises....as I do....dogmatic thinking. So it's no wonder he has a belief in "god" but no religion. He is weak minded with all that ability to not force himself past the once obstacle left in his way....god.
    To the contrary I find your views to be weak minded. Your thinking of this all wrong. You think I believe in God because of fear to the contrary I believe in God because I believe in righteousness. I know that religious dogma is mans creation not a creation of a God that created a universe of free will. The God I believe in is a perfect God.





    ---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 PM ----------

    Guilty as charged. You say apostate....I say enlightened. hehhehehehehehehe
    LOL what does that have to do with anything?

    (Yes, we are)
    I think many religions are corrupt and they drive more people away from the idea of God. So Im just curious why you fear/hate religion so much. At the same time many religious people are exactly what your saying only claiming to be of faith for reward. Which is not very genuine at best, and definitely not a noble attribute.

  16. #254
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    If God (from his point of view) doesn't act and is static then intelligence and sentience are out the window and we can comfortably reduce God to an uncaused (and equally static) non-sentient and non-intelligent entity.
    If we accept God's point of view, then we accept that linear time doesn't really exist and what we'd normally consider to be actions (and intelligence) don't actually exist. So from that perspective, God is not intelligent but then neither are humans so we can't say that God is less intelligent than human beings.

    If we reject God's point of view, then we cannot use God's point of view to draw any conclusions about God (such as the ones you just listed).


    ------------------------------

    From the perspective "Time is an illusion", there are no acts. From the perspective "Time exists", there can be acts. The answer to the question "Does God take actions" is dependent on which of the two perspectives you choose to answer from.
    Last edited by mican333; November 5th, 2012 at 10:40 PM.

  17. #255
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Thats a whole lot of I's. Public service is a job but the need to express that you help others is about you(self, ego, etc). Your last comments were incredibly egotistical. Especially the part claiming all theists are weak minded etc.
    You are over thinking something that is too simple. If you ask a question about ME personally...it follows that the use of I's comes into play. That's not egotistic....that first person.

    When a person don't know the answer to the question and they fill in the blank so that it has an answer, even if they have no proof to justify or back that answer up.....then yes...they are weak minded.

    Because I'm psychoanalyzing your comments, you seem afraid of something. Maybe your former religious beliefs. Just because your religion was wacky doesn't mean you should throw god out the window.
    Maybe you should get a degree in psychology? I cannot fear that which doesn't exist. I cannot fear an bronze age philosophy that I know is full of bunk. All religion is wacky. The second you suspend reality and evoke special pleading to answer question.....one becomes wacky.

    To sum up why it is so easy to toss god aside I will simply quote LaPlace when he explained to Napoleon why there was no god in his model of the universe , "Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothese."

    Or if you would prefer a Christian slant I'll quote Saint Paul, "when one is a child one speaks and thins as a child. But when one becomes a man, one puts away childish things."


    I came to the conclusion of God logically. Its the first philosophy actually. I feel God in my heart, and when I do bad things I feel guilty. As a being I realize I exist, and then I ask why I exist, how I exist. God is a natural conclusion.
    So because something is a first philosophy it is true? Because man cannot understand things like why it doesn't rain and the crops die off there must be a god controlling things and we must have miffed him off? I can't explain why people die from sickness...so god must be calling them home? Really??? You take the tinkerings of the mind of a primitive man and some how take their ideas with NO basis in reality as something of value because it answered questions just to have answers? Forget all the explanations that came years later that wiped away the need for a god and made sense of there uneducated uninformed ramblings.

    Atheists feel guilt too. That's not god. That's just guilt. The realization that you have wronged someone else, if you have a conscious at all is enough to feel guilt. You have no evidence to even call it god. Again you are leaning on years of things you have been taught at the feet of your elders. IF the conclusion is god then you simply haven't looked at other answers and reality. You've chosen to stick your head in the metaphorical sand and not face the truth.

    Oh crap. I get it this fear thing. You are projecting your own fears onto me. Makes good sense now.

    Ah turning the question back at me huh? That's fair. Going all pascals wager on me! Well I don't yearn for something. Honestly I'm just curious. When a loved one passes away I can comfort others by saying they are in a better place.
    But you don't know that. It's just a phrase you say to comfort someone. It's a fairy tale to placate the soul. It's understandable that anyone would be sad at a lose of a loved one. But to lie to yourself and not deal with reality, I don't understand the unnecessary mental gymnastics. All living things die. It's a fact of life. It's just as good to say, "Sorry for your loss." and reflect on the good times and good memories. But to claim an afterlife?? Some crazy notion that you are in a BETTER place? For what reason is this than vanity?

    To the contrary I find your views to be weak minded. Your thinking of this all wrong. You think I believe in God because of fear to the contrary I believe in God because I believe in righteousness. I know that religious dogma is mans creation not a creation of a God that created a universe of free will. The God I believe in is a perfect God.
    So your a heretic? My thinking is wrong? You have a lot to prove. Making empty statements about my beliefs when your own follow special pleadings and flawed logic. You have no proof. No evidence. You have nothing and claim everything. The only reasons you can give to the existence are 1. Guilt 2. A special place in the hereafter 3. Freewill (which made me laugh out loud) A perfect god? Man's been trying to craft that guy for years. All your work is ahead of you my friend. And it's going to be a ling road to tow.

    [/quote]
    I think many religions are corrupt and they drive more people away from the idea of God. So Im just curious why you fear/hate religion so much. At the same time many religious people are exactly what your saying only claiming to be of faith for reward. Which is not very genuine at best, and definitely not a noble attribute.[/QUOTE]
    I no fear of religion. I do understand that it takes religion to make a good man do bad things. I detest religion because it brings a false hope to people. It shackles their mind and does not allow them to be logical. It stops dead in it's tracks reason. No true good comes of it. Even the things you might classify as "good" that religion does always seems to have a darker side that muddles the whole thing up.

    while Christians are busy do things to make your god happy and win points to Club Heaven, the Atheist does good simply because it is good to do so. It is far more noble for an atheist to do good than a theist. There is no reward for the Atheist other than intrinsic value. No bartering tool for points with god for an atheist.

    Outside of religious utterings and books there is simply no need for a god.

    In Heaven there is no beer. That's why we drink it here.

    Rogue Cardinal, Member of the God-Awful Atheist Syndicate


  18. #256
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    When a person don't know the answer to the question and they fill in the blank so that it has an answer, even if they have no proof to justify or back that answer up.....then yes...they are weak minded.
    But thats precisely what you are doing.

    Atheists feel guilt too. That's not god. That's just guilt. The realization that you have wronged someone else, if you have a conscious at all is enough to feel guilt.
    You appear to feel none by how you speak/write.
    But you don't know that.
    You don't either.
    So your a heretic?
    Only if you follow religious dogma written and twisted by men. you know that thing you dislike so much...

    Outside of religious utterings and books there is simply no need for a god.
    Good luck with that.

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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If we accept God's point of view, then we accept that linear time doesn't really exist and what we'd normally consider to be actions (and intelligence) don't actually exist. So from that perspective, God is not intelligent but then neither are humans so we can't say that God is less intelligent than human beings.

    If we reject God's point of view, then we cannot use God's point of view to draw any conclusions about God (such as the ones you just listed).


    ------------------------------

    From the perspective "Time is an illusion", there are no acts. From the perspective "Time exists", there can be acts. The answer to the question "Does God take actions" is dependent on which of the two perspectives you choose to answer from.
    Right. And in order to do things and make decisions and think God would have to exist in our realm and within time. So, if God ever knowingly designed or created the Universe, did he exist within time? Can't be. That would mean that time exists outside of the Universe. How then did God manage to create the Universe?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Right. And in order to do things and make decisions and think God would have to exist in our realm and within time. So, if God ever knowingly designed or created the Universe, did he exist within time? Can't be. That would mean that time exists outside of the Universe. How then did God manage to create the Universe?
    As I said, the answer to the question "Does God take actions" (which would include creating the universe) is dependent on which of the two perspectives you choose to answer from.

    So which perspective do you want me to answer the question from? Shall I answer it from God's "no-linear-time" perspective or shall I answer it from the human's "linear-time exists" perspective? And keep in mind that whatever perspective I answer it from must be consistently held (as switching perspectives changes the answer).
    Last edited by mican333; November 6th, 2012 at 11:10 AM.

  21. #259
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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    But thats precisely what you are doing.
    No I am not. Answers that mean anything have to have evidence to back them up. There is no evidence for god so therefore I have no need to believe in one. The universe as best as we can explain seems to work perfectly fine without a god.

    extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I simply am not putting an answer in the blank. I don't know how it all started. I wasn't there to witness it. We have a good working hunch but not the very instant moment. A wise man claims nothing where fools are sure when there is no evidence.

    You appear to feel none by how you speak/write.
    I haven't confessed to you. So obviously you wouldn't feel my guilt. I have told you nothing about which I have been guilty. I have only told you that there have times I felt guilty.


    You don't either.
    The evidence on the matter of god is strongly in my favor. You don't even have a thing to bring to the table except for special pleading.

    Only if you follow religious dogma written and twisted by men. you know that thing you dislike so much...
    You have nothing to go on. Which is even less than what Christians and other theists claim. To them you are a heretic.
    Good luck with that.
    I don't need luck.

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    Re: Many atheists are deeply preoccupied with a Being they believe not to exist.

    To them you are a heretic.
    Clearly. I don't need to align my thinking with the majority as you do. I don't let others do my thinking for me, and my opinions can be trusted as non-bias.
    Last edited by Michael; November 6th, 2012 at 10:48 PM.

 

 
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