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  1. #1
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    The future of American health care?

    If you want to find out what will happen to U. S. healthcare if President Obama's proposals are adopted all you have to do is look at the state of healthcare in Britain.

    http://online.worldmag.com/2012/06/2...der-obamacare/

    Here is just one part of the article.

    Rationing has arrived, with more than 90 percent of English health trusts restricting “non-urgent” surgeries, which include hip and knee replacements and cataract surgery. It took a freedom of information request by the media to pry this fact from the NHS.
    Long waiting periods for routine surgeries are increasingly the norm here. People are amazed when an American tells them we still have fast access to our primary care physicians. In the U.K., one must often wait weeks for an appointment and then additional weeks and sometimes months for treatment, depending on the procedure.

    Cost-cutting, not improving the quality of care, now seems to be the major concern of the NHS. The Daily Telegraph of London last week carried a story about a 71-year-old man who had been removed from treatment for pneumonia and epilepsy because he was deemed to be too old and too sick. Professor Patrick Pullicino, a senior consultant at East Kent Hospitals, told the Royal Society of Medicine of his personal intervention to save the man. He said he encountered “significant resistance” from hospital staff. When Pullicino persuaded them to resume treatment, the man recovered and was discharged.

    The story contained this scary sentence: “NHS hospitals are using end-of-life care to help elderly patients die because they are difficult to look after and take up valuable beds.” First the elderly, and then who? When cost becomes primary, what’s next? Suddenly “death panels” don’t seem so far-fetched.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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  2. #2
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    We have rationing in the U.S.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

  3. #3
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    Re: The future of American health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    We have rationing in the U.S.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
    Could you please elaborate/support this statement?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Could you please elaborate/support this statement?
    Well insurance denies claims all the time. That is rationing

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  5. #5
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    Re: The future of American health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Well insurance denies claims all the time. That is rationing

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    Would you consider the fact that you only get a gallon of milk when you purchase a milk jug rationing then?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Would you consider the fact that you only get a gallon of milk when you purchase a milk jug rationing then?
    Well if I pay for coverage and they deny me because I will die before they can be forced to pay that is rationing.

    That is not uncommon.

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  7. #7
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    Re: The future of American health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Well if I pay for coverage and they deny me because I will die before they can be forced to pay that is rationing.

    That is not uncommon.
    Wow, thats a bold and unsupported claim. Challenge to support a claim. That isn't rationing by the way, its fraud.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Wow, thats a bold and unsupported claim. Challenge to support a claim. That isn't rationing by the way, its fraud.
    What ever it is it us not uncommon.

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  9. #9
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    Re: The future of American health care?

    The real problem with the OP is that Obamas health care legislation is not similar to the English healthcare system.

    They have a single payer state program and we don't. We have mandatory private insurance and privately paid providers (except for medicare)

    Any time you have a system with a fixed cost outlay, there is going to be rationing because you need to decide where the fixed pool of money will be spent. If Americans wanted to pay unlimited amounts of money for health care, then they could have unlimited health care. (barring supply limitations)

    Now in Britain, there is rationing inside the NHS, but Britain allows for private medical practice so if folks want to spend their own money, they are welcome to get any kind of treatment they choose to pay for, just like you can in america. And just like Britain if you are entirely dependent on state money for health care, then you are also subject to the state deciding what health care they will pay for. And what else would you expect really?

    Do you expect if you get public money for your health care that you can just have anything you want any time you want it? Or would you expect them to triage people based on the urgency of the need and the cost to benefit ratio of the treatment?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  10. #10
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    Re: The future of American health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    What ever it is it us not uncommon.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
    You have not supported that claim, which is a rule violation. Please support or retract it Challenge to support a claim.

    ---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Do you expect if you get public money for your health care that you can just have anything you want any time you want it? Or would you expect them to triage people based on the urgency of the need and the cost to benefit ratio of the treatment?
    The objection centers around who does the triage. If I do my own triage, either directly, or indirectly by only buying high deductible insurance, that is fine. What is being objected to by many is that bureaucrats are going to be doing some portion of the triage.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    You have not supported that claim, which is a rule violation. Please support or retract it Challenge to support a claim.

    ---------- Post added at 12:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------



    The objection centers around who does the triage. If I do my own triage, either directly, or indirectly by only buying high deductible insurance, that is fine. What is being objected to by many is that bureaucrats are going to be doing some portion of the triage.
    Then I retract

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  12. #12
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    Re: The future of American health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    The objection centers around who does the triage. If I do my own triage, either directly, or indirectly by only buying high deductible insurance, that is fine. What is being objected to by many is that bureaucrats are going to be doing some portion of the triage.
    How would a bureaucrat not be running a state system? You just don't like public institutions doing health care, I get that, but my point is that if you have a state system there will be prioritization aka rationing. One should not be outraged that it happens once you set up such a system, it is an expected component of it.

    We don't have that system in the US nor are there any current plans to so the OP fails in its contention.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  13. #13
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    Re: The future of American health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    How would a bureaucrat not be running a state system?
    Huh? Do you mean a privatized insurance system? Of course they wouldn't in a market system because the insurance company would be offering a product that I could decide whether or not to buy. They could (in an actual free market) decide to offer plans that cover multiple conditions rather than a lump set as is required now, that would be a decision I, the purchaser, made rather than a bureaucrat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig
    You just don't like public institutions doing health care, I get that, but my point is that if you have a state system there will be prioritization aka rationing. One should not be outraged that it happens once you set up such a system, it is an expected component of it.
    I'm unclear why you think we shouldn't be outraged. This was exactly the complaint that we were arguing about pre-bill that many on the Left (including you if I remember correctly) argued wouldn't happen.
    So I shouldn't be outraged that an expected outcome of the system we were opposing happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig
    We don't have that system in the US nor are there any current plans to so the OP fails in its contention.
    And yet, that isn't true. The state now mandates coverage through a taxation system, it mandates what must be covered by your insurance, it mandates that your employer offer it, it mandates who you are allowed to buy from, it mandates what percentage doctors get paid for certain procedures... How exactly do we not have a State controlled system?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  14. #14
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    Re: The future of American health care?

    Absolutely health care should be an important fact which should be noticed in a best manner.

 

 

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