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  1. #21
    ODN Community Regular

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    Mar 2008
    Seattle, Washington USA
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    Re: The Question of Patriotism as it Relates to Diversity

    Quote Originally Posted by SoylentGreen View Post
    Socialism and communism are related in the same sense that a grandfather is related to a grandchild, one does not directly come from the other but they share an ancestry.
    We agree on that though grandfather and grandchild, by most reconing, is a close kinship.

    And as for nihilism good luck on finding any philosophy on the subject that is not usually written by someone opposing it. The only supporting arguments are not actually philosophy per se. But it does survive in literature. In fact it is interesting that americans do not know much about nihilism as your society underwent a nihilist revolution in the early twentieth century. Some of the best nihilist writers are americans, kerouac, steinbeck hemingway to name a few. And a group of those writers were at the core of your social revolution. You have heard of the beatnik generation? Some great writers came from that generation and much of their writing questions what society values. And in many ways support the idea that value has no real meaning.
    I found the wikipedia entry on the subject to be largely non-judgemental of it. I've never been much for existential dispair or the like. I actually do think life is intrinsicly meaningless and there are no moral absolutes, but It never bothered me any. Mankinds needs for such things can be supplied by mankindds invention of such things and any challenge that is purely a product of our psychology is something we can probably handle.

    As to the beat generation, they became materialistic yuppies by and large.

    I can throw this " your not an american " thing at you. Your not the rest of the world and have no idea just how weird it is to see something that can be so funny as well as being appalling and horrible.
    Oh, its pretty weird to me too, I even made a blog post about it... So America Shits the Bed When people in the US tell me they are frightened by a Trump presidencey I remind them it's really the rest of the world that has a lot more to fear, we after all have the worlds largest militiary and a very healthy stockplie of nuclear weapons.

    That does not quite explain the isolationist tendencies. A lack of passport ownership in america. And america for all its hypocritical talk of peace has been involved in every war around the world since the creation of america. Either by selling arms or armies. So yes, your interests in all those things are very profitable for your country as a whole. No problem selling guns, just don't want to visit the places you sell them to.
    Not sure how many poeple you think should have passports but its arround 35-40%. Americans travel to Canada and Mexico quite often. to go to any other country is really quite expensive and time consuming and a lot of Americans don't get a lot of vacation time. Plus, its a huge country so there are lots of places to go inside the US. That doesn't make us isolationist.

    And yes, sadly we seem quite happy to sell the world lots of guns. Terrible habbit in my opinion. Then again, the world apparently wants to buy those guns from us, bad habbit there as well.

    No, what i said was a free market laissez-faire economy did lead to a dictatorship. As far a i know no country ever succeeded in creating a communist state.
    You are like a broken record, not listening or responding to my statements.

    Apparently, attempts to create communists states have all led to dictatorship just like those trying to make laissez-fair ones. Yet this is a critique of free markets to you but not of communism. you say "well the communists all did it wrong!" But the right can just as easily say no one has done free markets right either. And they do, I have to listen to it all the time. "This isn't capitalism, its crony capitalism, totally different!" etc...

    Every ideological axe grinder things no one who fails is a true follower of their ideological agenda, yet those axe grinders just sit on the side lines and imagine their utopian dream. Its easy to say how great it is if you never try to make it, and when you do, the gritty reality sets in and wham, you find yourself in an authoritarian scheme of some kind when the dust settles.

    I said a capitalist based society which of course was a mercantile economy of england. You can accuse me of not being specific but not of not understanding your history. The base history you are giving me does not change my statement that the government that was created after that revolution lasted not that long before devolving.
    Devolving how exactly? Best I can think of is the civil war, that was pretty devolved but I look at it as purging the government of one of its greatest betraials of the ideals of natural rights. So that's hardly devolving in my book. If you have something specific in mind spit it out. I don't see a devolution of the US government but a long running refinement.

    Correct me if i am wrong but are you saying that as long as any poor american man can look his child in the eye and say, " One day you too can be a despot and control the lives of all you see at a whim." That's a good thing, is it ?????
    You are wrong. It is a better thing than a society whre a child born in a lower class can't become anything but a slave, thats for sure. The fluidity of American social classes was something of the envy of the world for a time. And not everyone who is rich or successful is a despot. What you do with your wealth and power once you achieve it is up to you for the most part.

    So again, the morality here is that if the child manages to sneak a biscuit without the parents knowing or even after the parents saying that they should not, no harm, no foul then?
    I'm a pretty no harm no foul kind of fellow. If there is no harm in taking a biscuit then there shouldn't be a rule agaisnt taking the biscuit. If the parents didn't say anything about it, well then there isn't even an artificial reason not to take it. I don't follow rules just for the sake of following rules, I do things for the good of myself and others.

    Mostly not corrupt. That's like a little bit pregnant.
    How so?

    It is the system not the mechanics that is questionable. The first question being can a two party system FPP voting system really be said to actually represent nearly 320 million people?
    Sure. In agregate. Does it mean everyone gets exactly what they want? Hell no but how could you do anything at a national level and achieve 320 million people all having their own indidual say on any given question? It's impossible.

    Just as a metaphor it doesn't work for you? Can i too ask for more specific information or is it just you who can play the analogy?
    No to the first question (I don't understand your metaphor) and yes to the second qyestion, ask whatever you like. Unlike you, I seem capable of actualy answering questions put to m in a direct manner.

    Where do you think mutual cooperation comes from in a libertarian society.
    It is supposed to come from voluntary agreement.

    The discussion really should be around the facts that actually effect those involved. Not imagining some tree hugging communal asking how you might " feel" about it. Nor should some outside force that has no direct concern in the matter be involved unless asked to. In such a situation no direct law could cover the variables involved. In most western societies such things can be handled through courts and such court systems can still exist in even a libertarian socialist society.
    You are very bad at answering questions. Are you allergic to workds such as "yes" and "no"? They are incredibly effective at conveying information. Explainers are all well and good, but they should come with a nod or shake of the head.

    I'm going to gaze into my crystal ball.... I'm seeing a fuzzy small fruit, or is that a testicle... hard to say, Ah wait there it is.... I think the answer you are thring to give me is "Yes, I have to ask permission to build my Dam and sell the Power."

    OK then. Well if I have to ask permission from people then they are limiting my liberty in some respect.
    Feed me some debate pellets!



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