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  1. #1
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    Eyes of an Atheist

    Imagine the Earth in which the vast majority of people seriously believe in Santa, or some slight variation of him, and live their lives accordingly.

    In this society a person cannot be elected as the leader of a country unless he believes in Santa.

    This society has fought wars over which variation of Santa is the 'correct' one.

    What would you think of this world? Of these people?

    If you have imagined what it would be like to literally live in such a society, then you have just seen the world through the eyes of an Atheist.
    abc

  2. #2
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    If you have imagined what it would be like to literally live in such a society, then you have just seen the world through the eyes of an Atheist.
    Since there is a very significant difference between Santa Claus and God as well as holding a belief in either, the analogy does not hold up.

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  4. #3
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since there is a very significant difference between Santa Claus and God as well as holding a belief in either, the analogy does not hold up.
    There is no such difference from the perspective of an atheist. Whether this is true or not is irrelevant, it is true for atheists and therefore affects their world view.
    abc

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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    There is no such difference from the perspective of an atheist.
    A belief in Santa Claus is significantly less rational than a belief in God so the believers of each are not the same, even from the perspective of those who don't accept the existence of Santa Claus or God.

  6. #5
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    A belief in Santa Claus is significantly less rational than a belief in God
    That is debatable. Atheists would take the side of 'a belief in God is equally as rational as a belief in Santa'. But this is beside the point. Please stick to the debate presented in the OP.
    abc

  7. #6
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    That is debatable. Atheists would take the side of 'a belief in God is equally as rational as a belief in Santa'. But this is beside the point. Please stick to the debate presented in the OP.
    I think if you keep comparing God to the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy people will always be inclined to challenge whether or not the comparison is valid. If you want to make your point better then you need to at least pick another entity like Vishnu or something. You'll get nowhere by starting off with mockery. And why should you, really?

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  9. #7
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I think if you keep comparing God to the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy people will always be inclined to challenge whether or not the comparison is valid. If you want to make your point better then you need to at least pick another entity like Vishnu or something. You'll get nowhere by starting off with mockery. And why should you, really?
    I never said that Atheists are correct in their position that God is equal to Santa. What I am asking people to do in this debate is to imagine the world from an Atheist's perspective (which is that God is equal to Santa) and then state what conclusions they would draw about the world and society.

    So for the purposes of this debate assume that it is true that 'God is equivalent to Santa'. I do not think this is to much to ask. I have seen a lot of debates where people are asked to assume something is true for the sake of debate regardless of it's actual truth.

    Assuming that my intention with this thread, is to mock or insult, is not my fault. You can perceive this thread as an insult or as an interesting exercise in imagination. It is really up to you, not me.
    abc

  10. #8
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    I never said that Atheists are correct in their position that God is equal to Santa.
    I don't care what you didn't say. I'm pointing out what you did say, and what you did say implied that God is just like Santa. As long as you keep doing stupid **** like that, no one will take you seriously. I'm trying to give you useful advice here so that you'll stop looking like an idiot every time you start a thread. Take it or leave it.

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  12. #9
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    I don't care what you didn't say. I'm pointing out what you did say, and what you did say implied that God is just like Santa. As long as you keep doing stupid **** like that, no one will take you seriously. I'm trying to give you useful advice here so that you'll stop looking like an idiot every time you start a thread. Take it or leave it.
    Do you understand what I said in the OP? Or are you just pointing out what everyone will think I said even though I said nothing remotely like it?

    P.S. I generally leave hostile advice.
    abc

  13. #10
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Do you understand what I said in the OP? Or are you just pointing out what everyone will think I said even though I said nothing remotely like it?
    Even though the first person to reply pointed out that it wasn't a valid comparison?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    P.S. I generally leave hostile advice.
    Awesome. Let's see how well it serves you.

  14. #11
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Even though the first person to reply pointed out that it wasn't a valid comparison?
    ...and I pointed out that for the sake of this debate the 'validity of the comparison' is irrelevant. It is assumed to be true for the sake of this debate.

    Awesome. Let's see how well it serves you.
    So far... well.
    abc

  15. #12
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    ...and I pointed out that for the sake of this debate the 'validity of the comparison' is irrelevant. It is assumed to be true for the sake of this debate.
    Well, clearly no one agrees or is willing to accept the condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    So far... well.
    Okie dokie.

  16. #13
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    Well, clearly no one agrees or is willing to accept the condition.
    Well this is the position that Atheists accept. Although they usually call it a flying-spaghetti-monster.
    abc

  17. #14
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Well this is the position that Atheists accept.
    No it isn't. It's the position that atheists who create utterly non-productive threads try to insist on using.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Although they usually call it a flying-spaghetti-monster.
    Nope. That was invented exclusively as an objection to Intelligent Design movement. It was forwarded to show that saying nature shows signs of being designed tells us nothing about the designer itself, so it could be anything.

  18. #15
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    That is debatable. Atheists would take the side of 'a belief in God is equally as rational as a belief in Santa'. But this is beside the point. Please stick to the debate presented in the OP.
    I am sticking to it. You said that a world where the majority believes in Santa Claus is how the atheist views a world where the majority believes in God. But if the belief in Santa Claus is less rational than a belief in God, then it's a crazier world than the one the theist experiences and therefore it is not the same.

    You said I should imagine a world where the majority believes in Santa Claus. Alright I will. Santa, by definition, delivers toys to the children of the world every Christmas Eve. Now, I know that Santa doesn't do that. I've never received a gift from Santa. Neither have my children. And every person that I know has the same experience. So I have incontrovertible evidence that Santa does not exist and so does everyone else. So they have clear, incontrovertible evidence that Santa does not exist. And yet they do believe in Santa! They actually believe something that anyone who observes simple reality will know does not exist. That is crazy!

    So that's what atheists experience? No, it's not what they experience. There is no incontrovertible evidence that God doesn't exist and therefore those who believe in God are not holding a belief that contradicts what can clearly be observed and therefore while they may be incorrect, they are not crazy.

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  20. #16
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    This seems about as useful as "Eyes of a terrorist" or "Eyes of an asshole". Sure, from their own perspective, their own attitudes/beliefs/values/whatever make sense. So what?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  21. #17
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    What I am asking people to do in this debate is to imagine the world from an Atheist's perspective (which is that God is equal to Santa)
    Well, perhaps it would look like something similar to this:


    or this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0cG1...feature=relmfu
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
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  22. #18
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    No it isn't. It's the position that atheists who create utterly non-productive threads try to insist on using.
    Well every Atheist that I have talked to agrees that God is on the same playing field as Santa.

    Nope. That was invented exclusively as an objection to Intelligent Design movement. It was forwarded to show that saying nature shows signs of being designed tells us nothing about the designer itself, so it could be anything.
    It can be used for more than one thing.

    ---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I am sticking to it. You said that a world where the majority believes in Santa Claus is how the atheist views a world where the majority believes in God. But if the belief in Santa Claus is less rational than a belief in God, then it's a crazier world than the one the theist experiences and therefore it is not the same.
    To you it is crazier but to Atheists it is not, it is equally as crazy. I am not interested in your world view, I am interested in an atheists world view.

    You said I should imagine a world where the majority believes in Santa Claus. Alright I will. Santa, by definition, delivers toys to the children of the world every Christmas Eve. Now, I know that Santa doesn't do that. I've never received a gift from Santa. Neither have my children. And every person that I know has the same experience. So I have incontrovertible evidence that Santa does not exist and so does everyone else. So they have clear, incontrovertible evidence that Santa does not exist. And yet they do believe in Santa! They actually believe something that anyone who observes simple reality will know does not exist. That is crazy!
    Some Atheists see theists as crazy. I am surprised that you agree.

    So that's what atheists experience? No, it's not what they experience. There is no incontrovertible evidence that God doesn't exist and therefore those who believe in God are not holding a belief that contradicts what can clearly be observed and therefore while they may be incorrect, they are not crazy.
    Don't take Santa as literal. That is missing the point. Lets call it Zeus...

    ---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    This seems about as useful as "Eyes of a terrorist" or "Eyes of an asshole". Sure, from their own perspective, their own attitudes/beliefs/values/whatever make sense. So what?
    The so what comes from the expansion on your above statement. Try it, you'll see. Just imagine what I have asked you to in the OP.

    ---------- Post added at 01:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Well, perhaps it would look like something similar to this:


    or this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0cG1...feature=relmfu
    That made no sense to me...
    abc

  23. #19
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Imagine the Earth in which the vast majority of people seriously believe in Santa, or some slight variation of him, and live their lives accordingly.

    In this society a person cannot be elected as the leader of a country unless he believes in Santa.

    This society has fought wars over which variation of Santa is the 'correct' one.

    What would you think of this world? Of these people?

    If you have imagined what it would be like to literally live in such a society, then you have just seen the world through the eyes of an Atheist.
    I would imagine these people have a pretty serious history with Santa. That, at the very least, Santa has been active or perceived to've been active in their lives. That they care quite a bit about him. It'd be worth exploring what all the hubbub about Santa is. How is seeing the world that way something special or unique to Atheists?
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  24. #20
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    Re: Eyes of an Atheist

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    To you it is crazier but to Atheists it is not, it is equally as crazy.
    So atheists think theists are crazy? Support or retract. I should point out that I have seldom, if ever, seen atheists forward that theists are crazy on this site.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Don't take Santa as literal. That is missing the point. Lets call it Zeus...
    You said imagine a world where people believe in Santa! And now I'm not suppose to do that? Okay, if you want I will forget the whole Santa thing since it apparently is a poor example to get your point across and Zeus is apparently a better example. But maybe if you would explain the point then I will makes sure to address it.

    So what IS the point?
    Last edited by mican333; July 29th, 2012 at 03:35 PM.

 

 
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