Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4
Results 61 to 70 of 70
  1. #61
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    770
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    yep, working on it!
    It is less important what you believe, than why you believe it.

  2. #62
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glasgow UK
    Posts
    346
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SamanthaCobalt View Post
    Ok so most of us can agree that abortion is WRONG
    but...not always?

    The arguement that i'm trying to put forth here is as follows:

    Is Abortion considered the Right Choice if you are a drug taking,16-year old who will have to give up your whole future to nurture the child?

    Everyone has the right to live, but if giving this baby the chance to do so will not only mess up the teenager's life who will then in response be unable to take care of the baby's needs but also result in making the child's life miserable (poor,violent,neglected,abused in some cases, or left for adoption) would it make abortion the right choice in that case?
    And that doesn't just apply to the scenario mentioned above, but also let's say if a girl got pregnant and her health is poor, should she risk her life and have the baby anyway? And what if it was a woman who already has kids and giving birth will probably be at the toll of her own life. Should she give the baby her life and leave her kids motherless?
    I don't agree that abortion is anything but immoral, regardless of the circumstances. However, that has to be qualified by stating that when confronted by two wrongs perhaps the least wrong would be the appropriate course of action. The first scenario you present does not fall into that category as no person would be in the situation where they 'have to give up your whole future to nurture the child'. The child can be put up for fostering or adoption, thus 'freeing' the person from the responsibility of nurturing the child. The second scenario would fall into that category where the woman and her partner would need to make the choice of her life over that of the child. The same would be case in the event of a parent and their child drowning where the parent could save the life of the child but only at expense of their own life.

    Thanks
    Matt

    ---------- Post added at 03:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    No. Capital punishment as it is practiced in the United States ought to be stopped IMO because of that margin of error.
    Why ought it to be stopped immediately because of the margin of error and not just restricted to cases where there is no or only negligible doubt about the guilt of the perpetrator?

    Thanks
    Matt
    Do what you can, where you are, with what you have

  3. #63
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsmanmatt View Post
    Why ought it to be stopped immediately because of the margin of error and not just restricted to cases where there is no or only negligible doubt about the guilt of the perpetrator?

    Thanks
    Matt
    Which cases are those? ALL cases are said to be with no or negligible doubt, that is the problem.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  4. #64
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glasgow UK
    Posts
    346
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Which cases are those? ALL cases are said to be with no or negligible doubt, that is the problem.
    An example would be where the murder was caught on video and attested to by multiple independent credible witnesses and not only was the perpetrator found to be sane but he himself refused to take an insanity plea and confessed to the murder.

    Thanks
    Matt
    Do what you can, where you are, with what you have

  5. #65
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Scotsmanmatt View Post
    An example would be where the murder was caught on video and attested to by multiple independent credible witnesses and not only was the perpetrator found to be sane but he himself refused to take an insanity plea and confessed to the murder.

    Thanks
    Matt
    How many cases involve such circumstances?


    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 : via Tapatalk
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  6. #66
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glasgow UK
    Posts
    346
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    How many cases involve such circumstances?


    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 : via Tapatalk
    I don't know, nor see the relevance of the question. It is but an example demonstrating that where there is incontrovertible evidence of murder that the death penalty would be justice and that regardless of the margin of error with the death penalty in general which would have no application in those cases.

    Thanks
    Matt
    Do what you can, where you are, with what you have

  7. #67
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    Well, the objection has to do with not being able to be 100% certain. If we are, there is no objection. If we aren't, then there is an objection.

    I asked you how many cases were involving circumstances like yours to illustrate the point that we can come up with all sorts of ideas on what we believe would incontrovertible evidence but that is irrelevant if the cases in question don't have such evidence. For example...we could say "If only we had a magic machine that told us beyond a shadow of a doubt who the criminal was..." But if it is the case that there are no cases in which we can apply this magic machine, then it really does not do us any good to use it as an example as to how it could lead us to this position.

    Likewise, if there are no actual cases in which there is incontrovertible evidence that give us 100% certainty about the guilt of the charged, then it really isn't a legitimate objection.

    Regardless...since the objection has to do with the lack of 100% certainty, this implies that if we did have 100% certainty, the objection is removed. That is, the objection lies with the practical application in determining guilt, not any moral or economical argument.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  8. #68
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glasgow UK
    Posts
    346
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Well, the objection has to do with not being able to be 100% certain. If we are, there is no objection. If we aren't, then there is an objection.

    I asked you how many cases were involving circumstances like yours to illustrate the point that we can come up with all sorts of ideas on what we believe would incontrovertible evidence but that is irrelevant if the cases in question don't have such evidence. For example...we could say "If only we had a magic machine that told us beyond a shadow of a doubt who the criminal was..." But if it is the case that there are no cases in which we can apply this magic machine, then it really does not do us any good to use it as an example as to how it could lead us to this position.

    Likewise, if there are no actual cases in which there is incontrovertible evidence that give us 100% certainty about the guilt of the charged, then it really isn't a legitimate objection.

    Regardless...since the objection has to do with the lack of 100% certainty, this implies that if we did have 100% certainty, the objection is removed. That is, the objection lies with the practical application in determining guilt, not any moral or economical argument.
    I don't regard absolute certainty as a reasonable standard to set before enacting the death penalty. Certain to a negligible degree would suffice and better reflect the real world where very few things are held or actions done on the basis of 100% certainty. Even in the scenario I presented there is not absolute certainty because although the defendant didn't invoke an insanity or diminished responsibility plea and he was found to be of sane mind he might in fact be insane or have acted with diminished responsibility. However, penal systems have to administer justice on this less than absolute certainty basis and with murder the only justice if the death penalty, not allowing them to enjoy breathing air and moments of happiness which they have deprived another human being of having. You can have the last word on the subject as it is but a hypothetical in my country which does not have the death penalty.

    Thanks
    Matt
    Do what you can, where you are, with what you have

  9. #69
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    "Reasonable doubt" is insufficient because it still allows for a system to execute the wrong person. What you are advocating, is that it is better for the occasional innocent person to be killed so that others who we firmly believe committed the act, can be executed (as opposed to being put behind bars for life with no parole...or even serving out their entire sentence in solitary, etc...).

    I do not believe it is ever right to sacrifice an innocent human life so that we can kill guilty life, when it is unnecessary.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  10. #70
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    northern ill noise
    Posts
    250
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Can Abortion be Justified by Circumstance?

    Quote Originally Posted by SamanthaCobalt View Post
    Ok so most of us can agree that abortion is WRONG ...
    Well, I don't know about that.

    I don't think it is wrong. You have an unviable collection of cells vs a living breathing human with all kinds of memories and experience and thoughts and etc.

    If you were to give me a king solomon type scenario where I had to choose which one would live and which would die, I would choose the viable woman every time, she knows what death is, her life is much more of an investment after upteen years, not speculative potential, actual living.

    So if the "punishments" are equal, it is reasonable to favor the woman.

    The "punishment" though is not equal and that is where things get a little fuzzier, but not much for me. The fetus still does not have any concept of death, or at least not like the adult, all of its life is measured in potential, not real years accumulated, and that potential requires a serious effort on the part of the parent just to reach the delivery phase. The woman might not be able to "give up" the baby after bringing it to term (and the huge infux of oxytocin birthing creates), she is probably thinking most clearly well before delivery about these things.

    A woman needs the freedom to make a choice SHE can live with IMHO. I'm willing to draw the line at infantcide, but apparently humans used to do that with some regularity too if resources were scarce, though no one was terribly happy about it I'm sure.

    ---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

    Babies are cute and etc, but women are not forced labor life support machines. Governmnet should get the hell out of regulating that.

 

 
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4

Similar Threads

  1. Abortion CANNOT be morally justified.
    By PumpedUpKicks in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: March 24th, 2012, 09:33 AM
  2. Isreal attacking Iran would be justified
    By WhoamI in forum International Affairs
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: June 28th, 2010, 09:10 AM
  3. Crusades justified?
    By chadn737 in forum History
    Replies: 120
    Last Post: July 17th, 2009, 08:11 AM
  4. 1v1 Abortion, I am anti-abortion
    By Twitchard in forum General Debate
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: July 14th, 2008, 06:22 PM
  5. Morality Cannot be Justified
    By Castle in forum Philosophical Debates
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: December 21st, 2006, 01:24 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •