Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 137

Thread: Guns Kill

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like

    Guns Kill

    I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the debate whether guns kill or people kill. I believe guns kill and here are my reasons:

    - In 2005, 78.9 of all murders involved guns.
    - In Japan, guns are regulated to only policemen, and there is hardly any crime their.
    - Guns were MADE for killing.
    - The Virginia Tech Massacre. Period.

    I could think of more reasons, but that's just off the top of my head.

  2. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,479
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Well, 100% of all murders were committed by people....thats higher than your 78.9 %, so I win.

    And its "there" as in, "That post over there that says inanimate objects kill people intentionally is pretty absurd."
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  3. #3
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Well, 100% of all murders were committed by people....thats higher than your 78.9 %, so I win.

    And its "there" as in, "That post over there that says inanimate objects kill people intentionally is pretty absurd."
    So if "people" kill people, as your thinking goes, then why are "people" legal?

    That seems pretty absurd to me....

    Nukes dont kill people, people kill people. Why can't I buy a Nuke then?

  4. #4
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret View Post
    So if "people" kill people, as your thinking goes, then why are "people" legal?
    People cannot be "legal" or "illegal." They exist as a primary endpoint and purpose for the law... not as an object of it. Guns, on the other hand, are inanimate objects. The comparison is totally invalid. A person is only evaluated in terms of the law by what they do, not what they are. Gun control laws are based purely upon what the gun is and not what action is taken by the person using it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret
    Nukes dont kill people, people kill people. Why can't I buy a Nuke then?
    There are certain precautions that must be taken in order to keep a nuclear weapon, even just sitting somewhere not armed or ready to detonate, from hurting other people just by virtue of the highly unstable and inherently dangerous materials used in its construction. Unless you have the facilities to keep other people safe from that weapon's inherent effects that it does just by virtue of its existence, then your ownership of a nuclear weapon constitutes a real and constant threat to the public's safety, whether or not you detonate it.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  5. #5
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    People cannot be "legal" or "illegal."
    There are plenty of "illegal" people. Like this guy.. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jan-24-mexican-border-crossing.jpg 
Views:	76 
Size:	32.3 KB 
ID:	3291
    They exist as a primary endpoint and purpose for the law... not as an object of it.
    Determining the legalness of certain people has been an argument since the beginning of time. Think for a second. Name:  slavery.jpg
Views: 110
Size:  41.7 KB Click image for larger version. 

Name:	332470082.jpg 
Views:	61 
Size:	58.8 KB 
ID:	3293 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Saudi_Women_driving_cartoon.jpg 
Views:	62 
Size:	20.4 KB 
ID:	3294 Illegal people......just another day.
    Guns, on the other hand, are inanimate objects. The comparison is totally invalid. A person is only evaluated in terms of the law by what they do, not what they are.
    Only 160 years ago a man named Dred Scott was told by these American states that he was an "inanimate object". Now granted that is not a popular opinion any longer, but in the not so recent past it was and it is not tough to think of people, thinking of other people as "inanimate objects" or property.
    Gun control laws are based purely upon what the gun is and not what action is taken by the person using it.
    What other purpose has a gun, but not shoot and inlict bodily harm upon something, or someone? What good can a gun do?
    There are certain precautions that must be taken in order to keep a nuclear weapon, even just sitting somewhere not armed or ready to detonate, from hurting other people just by virtue of the highly unstable and inherently dangerous materials used in its construction.
    But do I not have the right to bear arms? I can own an automatic assault rifle, but not thats as far a we gun-nuts will go. We like picking and choosing.
    Unless you have the facilities to keep other people safe from that weapon's inherent effects that it does just by virtue of its existence, then your ownership of a nuclear weapon constitutes a real and constant threat to the public's safety, whether or not you detonate it.
    Ownership of a gun doesnt constitute a public threat? Could I not claim that my possession of a nuke is to protect my family or my self a threat against me or my family?

  6. #6
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Well, 100% of all murders were committed by people....thats higher than your 78.9 %, so I win.

    And its "there" as in, "That post over there that says inanimate objects kill people intentionally is pretty absurd."
    So let's ban people!!!!!!
    Why the **** does that not make sense? If people kill people, then why arent there anti-people laws?

    ---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    I wasn't aware that guns shoot themselves.
    I wasnt aware that idiots were allowed to exist outside of jail in this country. Why dont we ban people? Anti-people laws, anyone?

  7. #7
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,347
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret View Post
    So let's ban people!!!!!!
    Why the **** does that not make sense? If people kill people, then why arent there anti-people laws?

    ---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

    I wasnt aware that idiots were allowed to exist outside of jail in this country. Why dont we ban people? Anti-people laws, anyone?
    We do "ban" people. It's called "prison." When people show they will not agree to the rules, they are removed from those who do. It makes no sense to punish people who haven't done anything wrong, only those who have done something wrong.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  8. #8
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    We do "ban" people. It's called "prison." When people show they will not agree to the rules, they are removed from those who do. It makes no sense to punish people who haven't done anything wrong, only those who have done something wrong.
    yah, so I propose that we put anyone who has the potential to carry out a mass-murder in jail. Or we could just wait for another mass-murder to happen.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,350
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret View Post
    yah, so I propose that we put anyone who has the potential to carry out a mass-murder in jail. Or we could just wait for another mass-murder to happen.
    How about something more practical and fundamental? How about a new approach since the old one doesn't seem to be working?

    Why not re-examine and change the culture (that means you and me and everyone else) which allows a criminal mentality to foster? We are the sum total of our culture/society. If we don't like what we experience in society, we have to be intellectually honest and look at our society and its culture (though I do realize that this may not be politically correct for some people.) Such is life....

    Why not invest time, resources, American ingenuity and our smarts toward understanding the human psyche better so we can support mental issues or potential mental issues more effectively? Why not go to the core of the problem (cause), i.e. society, community, family, the individual, rather then put a band aid over an effect that will most likely resurface, just like the common cold.

    I realize one political approach is to try to manage the problem and blame it on this or that. But that gets old pretty fast, as we continue to bury the dead, and I think most of us realize that. Instead of managing the problem of public shootings, why not re-think, re-evaluate and re examine the culture we have created that fosters and supports the mentality that would, without any problem, shoot down a bunch of people/ children along with themselves for no rational reason. Personally, I think that will create positive change.

    If we don't like what comes out of our culture, we do have the option to fix it instead of just putting a band aid over it and temporarily managing the problem.
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  10. #10
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    How about something more practical and fundamental? How about a new approach since the old one doesn't seem to be working?
    that is exactly what I want.

    Why not re-examine and change the culture (that means you and me and everyone else) which allows a criminal mentality to foster?
    Lets stop glorifying violence behaivor in this country. Lets stop glorifying the military, and violence in movies and video games and on tv.
    We are the sum total of our culture/society. If we don't like what we experience in society, we have to be intellectually honest and look at our society and its culture (though I do realize that this may not be politically correct for some people.) Such is life....
    That is exactly what I am trying to do. We must change ourselves before we change others. We must be the change, not ask for it.
    Why not invest time, resources, American ingenuity and our smarts toward understanding the human psyche better so we can support mental issues or potential mental issues more effectively?
    I agree, it starts with PTSD. Particularly in the military. End war, end trauma, end PTSD. Easy solution.
    Why not go to the core of the problem (cause), i.e. society, community, family, the individual, rather then put a band aid over an effect that will most likely resurface, just like the common cold.
    Our 'gun culture' should be included in that.

    I realize one political approach is to try to manage the problem and blame it on this or that.
    Guns are not the cause of the problem, guns are tools used by the problem to carry out their actions. Banning guns is a remedy that will cut down on violence significantly, but there is far more to it.
    But that gets old pretty fast, as we continue to bury the dead, and I think most of us realize that.
    Instead of managing the problem of public shootings, why not re-think, re-evaluate and re examine the culture we have created that fosters and supports the mentality that would, without any problem, shoot down a bunch of people/ children along with themselves for no rational reason. Personally, I think that will create positive change.
    Violence is the enemy in this case. We treat violence as an honorable thing. It is honorable to kill in battle and then we reward that behaivor with rewarding medals of honor and such. We have whole days that honor violence. Memorial Day, Veterans Day, Pearl Harbour Day, D-Day, Cinco de Mayo. We praise movies and video games that glorify killers, like Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, Gladiator, Act of Valour, ect. We need to change that, if the problem is to be fixed. Guns are a starting point, not an ending point.
    If we don't like what comes out of our culture, we do have the option to fix it instead of just putting a band aid over it and temporarily managing the problem.
    We you cut yourself, the first thing you do is put a band-aid on it, then later you clean it out and treat it properly. Healing begins with a band-aid, it surely wont end with one though.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    West / East Coast
    Posts
    3,350
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret View Post
    Lets stop glorifying the military
    We enjoy our freedoms today, which include our ability to debate online freely because we can defend ourselves as a nation against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Personally, I do not take our freedom and our ability to defend it for granted.

    Our 'gun culture' should be included in that.
    So do you think the violent video game industry along with the motion picture industry that entertains us with blockbuster high violence movies should be heavily regulated?

    Guns are not the cause of the problem, guns are tools used by the problem to carry out their actions. Banning guns is a remedy that will cut down on violence significantly, but there is far more to it.
    Then why have gun related assault crimes in the UK, as shown on previous posts, (a country with gun control) not decreased significantly?

    Violence is the enemy in this case.
    I would argue that violence is simply an effect; it's a chosen response to a bigger issue. It is not the cause. Remove (address) the cause, the response (violence) will change.

    We treat violence as an honorable thing. It is honorable to kill in battle and then we reward that behaivor with rewarding medals of honor and such. We have whole days that honor violence. Memorial Day, Veterans Day, Pearl Harbour Day, D-Day,
    I think you may have this mixed up. What we honor in those days is our victory over tyranny.
    Last edited by eye4magic; December 19th, 2012 at 03:50 PM.
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
    Rumi

    [Eye4magic]
    Super Moderator
    ODN Rules

  12. #12
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    We enjoy our freedoms today, which include our ability to debate online freely because we can defend ourselves as a nation against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Personally, I do not take our freedom and our ability to defend it for granted.
    I am free despite the military, not because of it. I am free dispite Vietnam, despite the invasion of Grenada, depsite the first Gulf War, despite the Mexican American war, despite the Figi wars in the 1800's. The military is not the cause of my freedom, I would be just as free without the military and the glorification of violence.


    So do you think the violent video game industry along with the motion picture industry that entertains us with blockbuster high violence movies should be heavily regulated?
    No. I just dont buy violent video games and go to violent movies. I cant control everyone else.


    Then why have gun related assault crimes in the UK, as shown on previous posts, (a country with gun control) not decreased significantly?
    No school shootings......


    I would argue that violence is simply an effect; it's a chosen response to a bigger issue. It is not the cause. Remove (address) the cause, the response (violence) will change.
    Violence is the effect of ignorance, stupidty, pride and honor.


    I think you may have this mixed up. What we honor in those days is our victory over tyranny.
    Right? "We" honor. I dont honor, nothin. "Our victory", yeh? My ancestors didnt illegally immigrate the to US until long after the Revolutionary War. What "OUR" victory are you refering to?

  13. #13
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,479
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret View Post
    yah, so I propose that we put anyone who has the potential to carry out a mass-murder in jail. Or we could just wait for another mass-murder to happen.
    Ok, so lets put everyone in jail that breathes air. Since everyone is capable of mass murder. Do you support cutting off every hand on every person since the majority of strangulations, and indeed all murders, occur with the use of hands?
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  14. #14
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,347
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret View Post
    yah, so I propose that we put anyone who has the potential to carry out a mass-murder in jail. Or we could just wait for another mass-murder to happen.
    How do you propose we go about finding out who has the "potential to carry out a mass-murder?" What tests and mechanisms exist for that? Also, define "potential." Do you mean one who can functionally commit mass murder (which includes every human being capable of sight, mobility, and operating a weapon) or do you mean one who may be prone to do so?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Panama City, Florida
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    I'm sorry, I have to troll just a little bit here, "Guns don't kill people, husband who come home early do".

    As a serious rebuttal to your "Guns are made to kill", you are correct guns are designed to kill. They kill people, Bears, Lions, Gators and quite frank anything that gets in their way. I want you to try killing a Bear with a stick, tell me how that works out? People talk about how we should do away with weaponry and it's nonsense, weaponry was developed over thousands of years to protect humans from dangers.

  16. #16
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,347
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Clicky
    In Japan, guns are regulated to only policemen, and there is hardly any crime their.
    This is not true. You can register shotguns or rifles for hunting.

    This is what is hunted in Japan:

    Shika" (Japanese Sika deer, aka: Cervus nippon)
    "Ezo-Jika" (Hokkaido Sika deer, aka: Cervus nippon yesoensis)
    "InoShiShi" (Razor-back wild boar, aka: Sus scrofa)
    "Kiji" (Green Pheasant, aka Phasianus versicolor)
    "Yama-Dori" (Copper Pheasant, aka Syrmaticus soemmeringil, or Soemmering's pheasant)
    "Kiji-Bato" (Rufous Turtle Dove, aka Streptopelia orientalis)
    "Do-Bato" (Rock Dove, aka Columba livia, sometimes called simply "Hato")
    "Kojukei (Chinese Bamboo Partridge, aka Bambusicola thoracica)
    "Uzura" (Japanese Quail, aka Coturnix japonica)
    "Kitsune" (Japanese Red Fox, aka Vulpes vulpes japonica)
    "Tsuki-no-Waguma" (Asiatic (Crested) Black Bear, aka Ursus thibetanus japonica)
    "Hi-Guma" (Hokkaido Brown Bear, aka Ursus arctos yesoenis)
    Crow

    Sources:
    http://yabanjinlifestyle.blogspot.co...-in-japan.html
    http://www.crowbusters.com/begart3.htm
    http://www.mademan.com/mm/how-go-gam...ing-japan.html

    What Japan does well, is have an extensive registration system to determine gun ownership eligibility. It is much more scrutinizing than the US.

    That being said...the culture of the US other countries that disallow handguns to its citizens are quite different. What you are in effect saying is "Since other countries disallow guns and they have lower gun crime rates, the solution to the US gun crime rates is to disallow guns."

    The problem with that is that those countries have always disallowed guns, or were never in a place in which guns were ever popularly held by its citizenry...ever. You can't just go from 100mph to 0mph in an instant. Merely saying that the US ought not to have guns is not the solution for it just begs the question as to how we should go about doing that. If we were to use the ill-thought out plan by anti-gun groups, the result would be catastrophic.

    1) Most of the current law-abiding citizens who own guns would of course, turn them in. But NONE of the criminals who actually do the vast majority of shooting people with guns would. In other words, this would not solve the problem of gun crime because it is focusing on the WRONG group of gun owners. In addition, some of those original law-abiding citizens would keep their guns out of principle. There is no way to get all the guns off the streets from the wrong hands, merely by saying "OK, starting tomorrow everyone turn in your guns." I've not seen a SINGLE anti-gun advocate think past this point, and it is why they have such bad arguments...they simple don't think about what they are saying.

    It's like saying "In order to reduce speeding accidents, let's just make everyone not speed!" It's hardly a "brilliant" idea and IMO, just exposes the lack of effort that went into thinking about the position.

    2) Law-abiding citizens are now at an increased risk of being harmed since they do not have sufficient protection against criminals with guns. While at one time it could have been a deterrent or even a sufficient reaction, now that citizen has become a victim. There's nothing to stop an armed criminal from breaking into a home while armed because odds have significantly decreased that the home owner has a gun.

    3) The economy, which is already screwy, would be adversely affected. It's a $4.1 billion / year industry. Many people would adversely and immediately affected as well as local markets harmed....all for what? For a failed pseudo-solution to solve crime.



    If you (or anyone else of course) are against gun ownership, that's fine. But at least reason out the argument a bit. Simply saying "We should get rid of it because X, Y, Z" is NOT a solution. It is nothing more than saying "We should get rid of murders because people die." Hardly a compelling argument.

    Instead, focus on HOW we could get rid of guns and then that can be tied into your reasons as to WHY we should.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  17. #17
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,068
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Gun control can control guns but it can't control crime. It just hasn't been very effective in the US and internationally the statistics show that both countries with few guns and countries with many guns can have low crime rates, and that countries with few guns and countries with many guns can have high crime rates. In short, the relationship between wide use of guns and crime is not very close.

    What seems to really count is culture. If you have a culture of following the law and being obedient, you have little crime. If you have a culture of outlaws and criminal enterprise, you have plenty of crime.

    I don't think gun control that seeks to remove guns from the culture will work in America, I do think there is a reasonable place for registration and licensing laws that are not aimed at stopping people from having guns but are aimed at reducing the ability of criminals and the mentally ill at getting weapons. I also think some regulations limiting what kinds of arms you can have is appropriate.

    Guns are tools for killing (and in rare cases only for target shooting). Regulations should not be at making it hard to kill with a gun, it should make it so it is hard to kill indiscriminately with a gun. Ultimately we must rely on peoples responsibility not to kill one another.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  18. #18
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,479
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Apok, I sincerely disagree with the idea that most gun owners would turn in their guns if some law started tomorrow that stripped us of our 2nd Amendment rights. Of course this is nothing but an anecdote, but I think such an action would be akin to the "shot heard around the world" and many, many people would adopt the "Come and get it" approach, me being one of them, and it would put into place a series of events that would lead to a civil war. There is no way in hell, I would ever, for any reason, under any threat of punishment, surrender my right to defend myself and my family against "bad guys" and against this government. I have a strong feeling that I am not even close to being alone on that front.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  19. #19
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,347
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Perhaps. I don't know for sure. But I'd be surprised if most would keep their guns despite guns being outlawed. Regardless, I don't think this changes my response to the original argument.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  20. #20
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,450
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Guns Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Perhaps. I don't know for sure. But I'd be surprised if most would keep their guns despite guns being outlawed.
    I don't know man. People have a hard time giving up what they have. It's one thing to be denied access to something that you don't have; it's very different to have to surrender something that you do have. It's not like pot being illegal keeps people from getting their bud, or that prohibition kept booze under control, or that the Pope saying contraception is a "sin" discourages Catholics from using birth control. I think de-legalizing guns in this country would at a minimum be the catalyst for violent civil war.

 

 
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Do you believe guns kill people?
    By wanxtrmBANNED in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: December 21st, 2013, 12:51 PM
  2. Moral Dilemma: To Kill Him or not to Kill him
    By Idunno in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: October 3rd, 2009, 12:57 AM
  3. Guns and Voters
    By Slater in forum Politics
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: February 27th, 2008, 03:21 PM
  4. Zombies With Guns...Can They Or Can't They
    By zombiewithguns in forum General Debate
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: December 4th, 2006, 05:47 AM
  5. How many guns do you own?
    By Atticus in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: August 30th, 2004, 05:34 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •