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  1. #21
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    As a former atheist, then agnostic, to now theist, I believe in God because I find it much more rational than not.

    And I must say, the "logic" of many atheists is frightening...they engage in pseudo-reasoning, unable to employ actual principles of reason and logic. Not all atheists of course, but I would wager that most atheists simply lack the intellectual fortitude and capacity to reason appropriately and accurately. The more educated atheists are at least aware of some of the philosophical arguments and reasons offered for the existence of God. For them, their disbelief rests on their capability to actually reason (even though I disagree with the findings of their conclusion, which are usually the result of a contested proposition's truth value than a mistake in form). But for most atheists, they haven't yet "graduated" from elementary reasoning (in fact, I think such atheists are simply unaware that reason has actual rules and principles). They are unable to tell the difference between empiricism and rationalism, inferences and deduction. For them, their "reason" is merely the regurgitation of another's uneducated reasoning "ability"...a herd, or lemming mentality if you will.
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  2. #22
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    I agree.

    Schizophrenia is a valad reason to believe in all powerful invisible men.
    What about non-schizophrenics who hold those beliefs?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But it's not supported, nor very likely, that all of these people are schizophrenic.
    I don't claim that all are. There are many valid reasons. There are many forms of dementia. There are many drugs that can cause hallucination.

  4. #24
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    There are many forms of dementia.
    No there aren't.

    There are many drugs that can cause hallucination.
    Irrelevant to the reason that one believes in God. Obviously, the reason for the hallucination when taking drugs that cause hallucinations...is the drug (thus, not a reason for believing in God).

    What do you suppose, is the reason that so many atheists are uneducated about matters of informal and formal reasoning however?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    No there aren't.


    Irrelevant to the reason that one believes in God. Obviously, the reason for the hallucination when taking drugs that cause hallucinations...is the drug (thus, not a reason for believing in God).

    What do you suppose, is the reason that so many atheists are uneducated about matters of informal and formal reasoning however?
    Many religious experiences involve taking drugs to receive prophecy and talk to God.

    As for why so many atheists are ill informed in informal and formal reasoning same reason theists are. Logic and formal reasoning isn't mandated in primary education.


    Also there are many types of dimentia. Schizophrenia is not the same as alzheimer's for example.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What about non-schizophrenics who hold those beliefs?
    They may or may not have a valid reason to believe.

  7. #27
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by NixBix21 View Post
    Why do people believe in god?
    I think people believe in God for different reasons. One practical reason, however, I think many people believe in God is because God works. God's grace works amazingly effectively in our lives especially when we choose to work with it instead of working against it, i.e. when we "kick against the pricks."
    Last edited by eye4magic; September 2nd, 2012 at 08:34 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Many religious experiences involve taking drugs to receive prophecy and talk to God.
    This is a red herring fallacy. That a particular religion involves ritualistic drugs, is not the same as drugs being the reason that one believes in God. It is also a hasty generalization fallacy since it is the case that the vast majority of believers are not in this subset.

    As for why so many atheists are ill informed in informal and formal reasoning same reason theists are. Logic and formal reasoning isn't mandated in primary education.
    Not comparable. Many theists justify their belief on what is called "basic belief." But this does not exist with those who deny the existence of God, which can only be done through reason. This means that those who deny God must rely on the process of informal reason whereas not all theists need to (re: basic belief). Which means that all those who deny the existence of God ought to have at least an elementary understanding of reason, yet, they do not (and many of the deniers of God's existence in this discussion and in others at ODN are examples of that).

    Also there are many types of dimentia. Schizophrenia is not the same as alzheimer's for example.
    Schizophrenia is not a form of dementia. They are 2 distinct illnesses. The former a mental disease and the latter (dementia) being a group of symptoms caused by various diseases or conditions.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; September 2nd, 2012 at 09:02 PM.
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  9. #29
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    I don't claim that all are. There are many valid reasons. There are many forms of dementia. There are many drugs that can cause hallucination.
    Are you claiming that the "valid reasons" you listed are the only reasons that people have "Godly experiences"?

    If so, support or retract that claim
    If not, then what about people who have Godly experiences that are not demented or on drugs?

    ---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    They may or may not have a valid reason to believe.
    Is it possible that at least some of these people have actually had contact with God and therefore their valid reason is that they happen to be correct and know it?

    And don't ask me for evidence that this has happened. I said is it possible, which means as long as it's not shown to be impossible, it must be considered possible.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Are you claiming that the "valid reasons" you listed are the only reasons that people have "Godly experiences"?

    If so, support or retract that claim
    If not, then what about people who have Godly experiences that are not demented or on drugs?

    ---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------



    Is it possible that at least some of these people have actually had contact with God and therefore their valid reason is that they happen to be correct and know it?

    And don't ask me for evidence that this has happened. I said is it possible, which means as long as it's not shown to be impossible, it must be considered possible.
    All things not impossible are possible. I have always maintained that position.

    Also, I don't claim the list of valid reasons I gave is exhaustive. Brain trauma can cause problems in perception and hallucination as well. Sleep paralysis. There are many valid reasons.

    Whether any specific claim is true must be examined.

    If you wish to present your God for scrutiny it would be easy to see if believing makes sense.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    This is a red herring fallacy. That a particular religion involves ritualistic drugs, is not the same as drugs being the reason that one believes in God. It is also a hasty generalization fallacy since it is the case that the vast majority of believers are not in this subset.



    Not comparable. Many theists justify their belief on what is called "basic belief." But this does not exist with those who deny the existence of God, which can only be done through reason. This means that those who deny God must rely on the process of informal reason whereas not all theists need to (re: basic belief). Which means that all those who deny the existence of God ought to have at least an elementary understanding of reason, yet, they do not (and many of the deniers of God's existence in this discussion and in others at ODN are examples of that).


    Schizophrenia is not a form of dementia. They are 2 distinct illnesses. The former a mental disease and the latter (dementia) being a group of symptoms caused by various diseases or conditions.
    There are many logical reasons for perception to be wrong. Some are on purpose some are disease. Some are brain injury.

    As for formal and informal logic.

    Debate and philosophy are not equal.

    You think debate and philosophy comes to mind.

    I think debate and courtroom and jury come to mind.

    Both are valid.

  12. #32
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    All things not impossible are possible. I have always maintained that position.

    Also, I don't claim the list of valid reasons I gave is exhaustive. Brain trauma can cause problems in perception and hallucination as well. Sleep paralysis. There are many valid reasons.

    Whether any specific claim is true must be examined.
    But we are not talking about "is it true" but "is it possible". And since it's not impossible that at least some people believe in God because there really is a God, it's possible that "Because there really is a God" is one of the valid reasons.

    It's possible, right?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But we are not talking about "is it true" but "is it possible". And since it's not impossible that at least some people believe in God because there really is a God, it's possible that "Because there really is a God" is one of the valid reasons.

    It's possible, right?
    Only if there really is a God.

  14. #34
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Only if there really is a God.
    And it's possible that there really is a God. And again, I said "Possible" (which means not impossible).

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And it's possible that there really is a God. And again, I said "Possible" (which means not impossible).
    And.... All you are doing is stating the possible is possible.

    Until you give some properties to your God there is nothing to believe or not believe.

  16. #36
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    And.... All you are doing is stating the possible is possible.
    What I am doing is showing that it's possible that one of valid reason to believe in God is because there really is a God.

    It's also possible that there is no God and therefore every valid reason is based on something else.

    Since we don't know which it is, the only reasonable answer for why people believe in God is "I don't know why they believe in God".

    If you think "I don't know" is not the correct answer then you need to provide an alternative answer and show how it's the only possibly correct answer.

    As far as God's properties, I've always defined God as "an intelligence that made the universe" but I'll also got with the primary dictionary definition (which I believe we've covered in other threads).

  17. #37
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    There are many logical reasons for perception to be wrong. Some are on purpose some are disease. Some are brain injury.
    I never said there weren't. This seems like yet another error in your reasoning (another red herring).

    As for formal and informal logic.

    Debate and philosophy are not equal.
    Again, another fallacy of relevance. I never said they were equal nor argued anything similar.

    You think debate and philosophy comes to mind.
    No. Again, it would appear to be another fallacy of relevance (strawman).

    I think debate and courtroom and jury come to mind.

    Both are valid.
    Your response makes no sense as a response to mine.

    Remember what I said about some people who deny the existence of God....they require at least an elementary knowledge of informal and formal reasoning...yet possess neither? I think it is applicable here.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    What I am doing is showing that it's possible that one of valid reason to believe in God is because there really is a God.

    It's also possible that there is no God and therefore every valid reason is based on something else.

    Since we don't know which it is, the only reasonable answer for why people believe in God is "I don't know why they believe in God".

    If you think "I don't know" is not the correct answer then you need to provide an alternative answer and show how it's the only possibly correct answer.

    As far as God's properties, I've always defined God as "an intelligence that made the universe" but I'll also got with the primary dictionary definition (which I believe we've covered in other threads).
    I don't know is indeed the answer when presented with no question.

    Some intelligence created the universe and that intelligence communicates with people. Is it possible?

    I guess so, but all claims by people claiming this is the case I have learned about seem to have natural explanations.

    If you know of a true instance please share.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    Remember what I said about some people who deny the existence of God....they require at least an elementary knowledge of informal and formal reasoning...yet possess neither? I think it is applicable here.
    I don't deny all possible Gods don't exist. I just deny all Gods I have heard about exist.

    Examples include Allah and Jesus.

    In the instance of Jesus I dont deny his existing as a human just as God.

  20. #40
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    Re: why do people believe in a god

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    I don't know is indeed the answer when presented with no question.
    The question is "Why do people believe in God". The answer, based on the evidence is, "I don't know".


    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Some intelligence created the universe and that intelligence communicates with people. Is it possible?

    I guess so, but all claims by people claiming this is the case I have learned about seem to have natural explanations.
    What do you mean by "natural explanation"? You mean drugs, psychosis, brain damage, and so on?

    If so, then you are apparently forwarding that every person who sincerely believes that they have had a Godly Experience suffers from something on that list. Is this correct?

 

 
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