Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Lightbulb Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    There are many leaps that have arrived in today's medical tech field. Now The question and topic for today is, What do you think of modern Bionics? (E.G. The bionic eye that allows people to see, or the bionic arm that can function almost exactly like a limb)

    Also, Do you think it would cause an uprise of people that do not exactly need bionics but pay for them to "enhance" themselves? And do you think this is also a distant form of "forced" evolution? The whole Bigger, Better, Faster, Stronger argument through technology. Just a broad general subject.

    Let the games begin.
    Last edited by Furfante; September 18th, 2012 at 01:35 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    I think that bionics has a long way to go before it can accurately say to be better in every way - or, indeed, even in most meaningful ways - to the body parts the bionics replace. A bionic eye can at present only present a loosely pixelated image of what is detected by the fairly crude cameras and still can't be contained in a device small enough to be implanted internally without significant mass effect problems. Prosthetic cochlear implants are much the same way and require bulky battery packs and external microphones to function properly. While prosthetic limbs are coming along by leaps and bounds these days, they're still not as responsive, sensitive, coordinated, fast, or strong as the arms or legs that we were born with. Oh, some of them may be almost as good in one or two respects, but they sacrifice utility in all other aspects as the cost of their heavy focus on one or two aspects.

    I think that within our lifetimes, prosthetic technology will become advanced to the point where the scenario you envision might be possible, but it would still be cost-prohibitive for the vast majority of people. What's more, you have an absolute limit on the number of prosthetics that can be fitted based on the number of surgeons qualified to do the surgeries. A simple glance at the medical ethics of the situation would dictate that almost every prosthetic surgeon capable of fitting these things would be pegged out doing the replacements for people who have a legitimate need to replace a lost arm, leg, or other organ before ever even considering elective surgeries to "upgrade" already healthy and whole people.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  3. Thanks Furfante thanked for this post
  4. #3
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Very soon we will be augmenting our abilities with machines and computers. We will have chips implanted that allow us to reference unlimited information instantly just by thought. The future is amazing.

  5. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    For Talthas.
    Touche, I respect that.

    I mean, I am aware that our position now is still in the learning to crawl stages, but you really think that it may be possible to achieve the almost Sci-fi type bionics to improve not only disabled peoples, but people that would choose to sacrifice natrual born ability for man made enhanced ability?
    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
    "We are what we repeatedly do; excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."—Aristotle

  6. #5
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante View Post
    Touche, I respect that.

    I mean, I am aware that our position now is still in the learning to crawl stages, but you really think that it may be possible to achieve the almost Sci-fi type bionics to improve not only disabled peoples, but people that would choose to sacrifice natrual born ability for man made enhanced ability?
    Oh hell yeah. We are almost there. Much work is being one with the idea of a computer implanted in the brain. We have had an artificial heart saving lives for quite some time. We will one day just download our mind into an android body.

  7. #6
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Very soon we will be augmenting our abilities with machines and computers. We will have chips implanted that allow us to reference unlimited information instantly just by thought. The future is amazing.

    Oh hell yeah. We are almost there. Much work is being one with the idea of a computer implanted in the brain. We have had an artificial heart saving lives for quite some time. We will one day just download our mind into an android body.
    Please show your citations of current active research with viable results that suggests that these assertions you have made are reasonable conclusions.

    Currently, we are decades away from even beginning to develop the sort of computing power that could ever hope to achieve the level of complexity that exists in a fully developed human brain. The idea that we are going to have any realistic chance of downloading our entire conscious minds into a computer is not realistic and is not supported by any existing technological models of which I'm aware. We're talking about the realistic capabilities of bionics and prosthetics here, not half-baked science-fiction theories here.

    Do you have any hard scientific evidence to support your claims? If not, please retract them. If so, please post them here with the appropriate links to the relevant journal articles. Consider this a Challenge to support a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante View Post
    Touche, I respect that.

    I mean, I am aware that our position now is still in the learning to crawl stages, but you really think that it may be possible to achieve the almost Sci-fi type bionics to improve not only disabled peoples, but people that would choose to sacrifice natrual born ability for man made enhanced ability?
    I do think that it has been the trend over the past century or two for things that were previously only conceived in the imaginations of the most creative Sci-Fi writers to become more 'science fact' than 'science fiction.' Case in point: video-phones, e-readers, the Internet, tablet computers (how many of us would have *killed* for Penny's computer-book from Inspector Gadget?), and digital storage media.

    There doesn't seem to be any reason to assume that, given the current advances in and direction of technology in the field of prosthetics, we won't eventually develop technology that will either equal or surpass the parts the new devices would replace. Current advances in 3d printing using exotic or novel materials are just one of the most superficial advances in the technological infrastructure that will support a new generation of prosthetic research. One woman had half of her mandible printed out of carbon fiber impregnated with metal. They've got a gun that can spray skin stem cells grown in culture over a weekend onto a 3rd degree burn and allow it to heal like it was never damaged. We have 3d printers that can print off skin and simple organs. All of these things will make it much easier to replicate the parts we need, once we figure out how to appropriately interface them with the human brain.

    To that end, we have chimpanzees and gravely disabled human test subjects fitted with limbs that are controlled with thoughts via electrodes placed into the cerebral motor cortex. We have motion-tracking devices fitted to eye movements to allow certain people to talk or execute commands on a computer with their eye movements. We are even working on technology that will read a person's electromagnetic signature to detect certain types of thoughts (which is being developed for fairly scary ends at present, IMO, but could be used for much more noble ends if we were inclined). It's just a matter of time before we figure out the best ways to interface these devices with the human brain. The limiting factor then will be the successful and standardized installation of these things and their appropriate interfaces. That will prove much more challenging, as there is a very finite and limited amount of resources available in the surgical department of things.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  8. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Well I am not implying something so science fictional as "Surrogates" but More of just enhancements here and there. Like applications to military, such as enhancements to creat "super soldiers" or Internal organs that do not decay. so on and so forth.

    ---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 PM ----------

    You say that we are limited? How so?
    I mean the human body and brain is very adaptable, if one human can function normally with literally half a brain, then one human can have some sort of bionic limb or appendage attached and be able to (through much learning and therapy) theoretically operate the same way as would anyone human. correct? or am I astray here?
    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
    "We are what we repeatedly do; excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."—Aristotle

  9. #8
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Please show your citations of current active research with viable results that suggests that these assertions you have made are reasonable conclusions.

    .
    http://gizmodo.com/5813821/scientist...sion-for-brain

    "Flip the switch on, and the rats remember. Flip it off, and the rats forget [...] These integrated experimental modeling studies show for the first time that with sufficient information about the neural coding of memories, a neural prosthesis capable of real-time identification and manipulation of the encoding process can restore and even enhance cognitive mnemonic processes.

  10. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    It's just a matter of time before we figure out the best ways to interface these devices with the human brain. The limiting factor then will be the successful and standardized installation of these things and their appropriate interfaces. That will prove much more challenging, as there is a very finite and limited amount of resources available in the surgical department of things.
    Also, I would like to discuss your opinion on a probable time table.
    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
    "We are what we repeatedly do; excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."—Aristotle

  11. #10
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante View Post
    Well I am not implying something so science fictional as "Surrogates" but More of just enhancements here and there. Like applications to military, such as enhancements to creat "super soldiers" or Internal organs that do not decay. so on and so forth.
    I'm not sure we have the mastery over the genetic aging processes to be able to develop organs that don't decay, but I certainly think it's reasonable to assert that in the event that our organs *do* wear down, we will probably be able to replace them with a much greater degree of ease than we can do now. We're only a few years away from being able to grow a new liver or new kidneys for someone, and we can already do hair. It's not that big a leap to doing lungs and hearts, especially given that there are several independent and equally viable modalities that are being explored for just such purposes.

    As far as military applications, I think that the most likely initial forays into such things will be ocular implants that allow vision enhancements to beyond the normal 20/20 or 20/15 range we normally see in even the most eagle-eyed among us. We are only a few years away from developing a lens material that will accommodate in a manner identical to the crystalline lens we were born with, and it's in its final stages of development. Once it goes through the FDA process of approval and the initial hiccups of the first few batches, I think that it will eventually become the standard of care for the treatment of presbyopia (age-related sight problems). We already have hearing aids/earplugs that amplify sounds in certain frequency ranges but still protect admirably against the loud report of a shotgun or rifle, thus allowing hunters to overcome the age-old question of whether to compromise their hunting ability to save their hearing. It's just another step to make them more sophisticated and better suited to military applications. I'll bet there are a few prototypes out there that already have tied-in subvocal microphones and could be used as tactical communications devices, though I don't have anything to support that theory. It's certainly within the range of our current technology to develop.

    But as far as "stronger, faster, better," I think that the wave of the future is going to be more external than internal modifications... things like exosuits that use hydraulic pumps to augment a wearer's strength and carrying capacity but are not much more encumbering than a bulky sweatsuit. We already have technology like that which is in its infancy, so it's only one or two logical leaps forward before the technology is refined, miniaturized, and individualized for specific applications.

    ---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------

    Fair enough... cool stuff, there.. thanks for sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante View Post
    Also, I would like to discuss your opinion on a probable time table.
    Well... I think that we'll have an appropriate substitute for the human crystalline lens available on the general market within the next 20 years, based on the estimates my brother the optometrist gives me. I think that we may have the ability to duplicate functional human organs to a limited degree within the next 10 years or so, but I think that it will be more like 20 or 30 before we have a sufficiently good handle on it to be able to reliably duplicate any organ we want, and for those technologies to get past the approval process for general use by the public. We *already* have carbon-fiber bone prosthetics being used in human subjects.

    As far as the neurological aspects of it, I honestly have no idea. I'm not a neuroscientist, and I'm not up on the current literature. Sorry... no help there.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  12. Likes Furfante liked this post
  13. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    As far as military applications, I think that the most likely initial forays into such things will be ocular implants that allow vision enhancements to beyond the normal 20/20 or 20/15 range we normally see in even the most eagle-eyed among us. We are only a few years away from developing a lens material that will accommodate in a manner identical to the crystalline lens we were born with, and it's in its final stages of development. Once it goes through the FDA process of approval and the initial hiccups of the first few batches, I think that it will eventually become the standard of care for the treatment of presbyopia (age-related sight problems). We already have hearing aids/earplugs that amplify sounds in certain frequency ranges but still protect admirably against the loud report of a shotgun or rifle, thus allowing hunters to overcome the age-old question of whether to compromise their hunting ability to save their hearing. It's just another step to make them more sophisticated and better suited to military applications. I'll bet there are a few prototypes out there that already have tied-in subvocal microphones and could be used as tactical communications devices, though I don't have anything to support that theory. It's certainly within the range of our current technology to develop.

    But as far as "stronger, faster, better," I think that the wave of the future is going to be more external than internal modifications... things like exosuits that use hydraulic pumps to augment a wearer's strength and carrying capacity but are not much more encumbering than a bulky sweatsuit. We already have technology like that which is in its infancy, so it's only one or two logical leaps forward before the technology is refined, miniaturized, and individualized for specific applications.
    ---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------

    Ah true, I can see the direction you are aiming at. I like this topic and your stimulating responses.
    As far as the exo skeletons, What about integrated neural armor or extentions of the body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Fair enough... cool stuff, there.. thanks for sharing.

    Well... I think that we'll have an appropriate substitute for the human crystalline lens available on the general market within the next 20 years, based on the estimates my brother the optometrist gives me. I think that we may have the ability to duplicate functional human organs to a limited degree within the next 10 years or so, but I think that it will be more like 20 or 30 before we have a sufficiently good handle on it to be able to reliably duplicate any organ we want, and for those technologies to get past the approval process for general use by the public. We *already* have carbon-fiber bone prosthetics being used in human subjects.

    As far as the neurological aspects of it, I honestly have no idea. I'm not a neuroscientist, and I'm not up on the current literature. Sorry... no help there.

    ok so carbon fiber Bone implants or just a strengthening compound?
    Last edited by Talthas; September 18th, 2012 at 02:19 PM. Reason: cleaning up formatting
    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
    "We are what we repeatedly do; excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."—Aristotle

  14. #12
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    For military purposes I don't see people inside suits.

    I see people inside bunkers with virtual reality machines remote controlling robots.

  15. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    For military purposes I don't see people inside suits.

    I see people inside bunkers with virtual reality machines remote controlling robots.
    I disagree, if you take out almost all human element then you surrender the battle to cyber hacking, in theory I think one person could control an entire field if they hacked right. So no, I think soon body armor and neuro-technology will come into play as practically everything does in todays military... right? haha

    ---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

    Off topic, but sorry for my strange forum manners, im sort of new to all this stuff.
    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
    "We are what we repeatedly do; excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."—Aristotle

  16. #14
    Senior Mod

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante View Post
    Ah true, I can see the direction you are aiming at. I like this topic and your stimulating responses.
    I'm enjoying talking about something I actually have a little bit of knowledge about, even if my knowledge is somewhat superficial and spotty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante
    As far as the exo skeletons, What about integrated neural armor or extentions of the body?
    Hm... well, most of the exoskeletons now work on a principle of movement augmentation... they are sort of motion or tension activated and simply provide additional "oomph" to the wearer's existing movements. These movement augmentations are controlled by microprocessors in the suit and aren't actually linked to the neural structure of the wearer at all. I think that in many ways, this is a superior modality because it doesn't rely upon modifying a person as much as it does on refining interface and reactive technology to be applicable to anyone who puts on the suit instead of just someone who's retrofitted with some sort of a fancy neural interface we have yet to develop. Development as it stands now consists mostly of software/firmware refinement and miniaturization, not forging ahead into new territories of neuroscientific breakthroughs. Once that's done, it would be a matter of using more tightly refined augmentation systems... micro pistons using hydraulics of some sort... maybe novel materials that have variable elasticity depending upon electrical current. But that would be easier to develop and experiment with than human-machine neural interfaces.

    As far as armor... they've got a nifty colloid that hardens on impact with a high-velocity object to an equal or greater degree than kevlar and weighs much less. Estimates put a body suit about 1/2 to 1/3 as encumbering as current bulletproof technology with equal or superior protection to our best ceramic plates, with the right implementation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante
    ok so carbon fiber Bone implants or just a strengthening compound?
    Well... I don't know about a strengthening compound... that would actually have to bond with the bone tissue itself and carries with it all the complications of trying to infuse a substance into an already existing and fairly compplex biological matrix and surrounding systems (i.e. our calcium regulation, phosphate binding, and blood cell production). The carbon fiber implants (or, for that matter, carbon-titanium or whatnot) are actually pinned in place like any bone or joint graft and use existing surgical techniques to accomplish the goal of bone replacement. The weak point is, of course, at the interface between the implant and the existing bone. I don't really see a way around that.
    -=[Talthas]=-
    ODN Senior Moderator

    ODN Rules

  17. #15
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante View Post
    I disagree, if you take out almost all human element then you surrender the battle to cyber hacking, in theory I think one person could control an entire field if they hacked right. So no, I think soon body armor and neuro-technology will come into play as practically everything does in todays military... right? haha

    ---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

    Off topic, but sorry for my strange forum manners, im sort of new to all this stuff.

    Hacking will play a part in all future wars. Whether the hacker takes out the firmware of the suit rendering it useless or hacks the remote control of the robot like was done to a U.S. drone.

    I think we will go to remote control becuase that is what we are currently doing with drones and next gen fighter jets. Tanks can be remote controlled as well.

    This brings down causualty rates for the U.S. forces on forign soil. It makes for a better political war. Thais is why I think this trend of remote controlled robots will continue.

  18. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Fascinating! Thank you So much for sharing with me Talthas

    The fact is I have been curious though about the whole generalized exo suits, I feel like they would be needed for enhanced athletic ability and almost super human traits. Those are far fetched ideas but hey, a guy can dream.

    ---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    This brings down causualty rates for the U.S. forces on forign soil. It makes for a better political war. Thais is why I think this trend of remote controlled robots will continue.
    But it increases costs and debt.
    As the Marines say "the deadliest weapon is a marine and his gun." You cannot beat Human actions and our pure instinct to survive.
    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
    "We are what we repeatedly do; excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."—Aristotle

  19. #17
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furfante View Post
    Fascinating! Thank you So much for sharing with me Talthas

    The fact is I have been curious though about the whole generalized exo suits, I feel like they would be needed for enhanced athletic ability and almost super human traits. Those are far fetched ideas but hey, a guy can dream.

    ---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------



    But it increases costs and debt.
    As the Marines say "the deadliest weapon is a marine and his gun." You cannot beat Human actions and our pure instinct to survive.
    I agree.

    Ever play Halo?

    Will we be in the suit or will we stay playing a virtual suit which controls a robot?

    I think it will feel real enough to spark my survival instinct just being virtual reality. heck I get pretty worked up during team capture the flag.

    I don't think making the suit remote controlled will make it too much more expensive and might even make it cheaper since the suit can be disposible where as a suit that holds a human must be made around holding and protecting a human.

  20. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    As a Matter of fact, I love halo, but Having an exo suit of that calibur may just bo too sci-fi for the human race.
    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
    "We are what we repeatedly do; excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."—Aristotle

  21. #19
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    869
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    I'd be nervous about getting any significant permanent enhancements to my senses like taste and touch...it seems that that would give the sense a disproportionately large influence on my psyche and I would end up becoming a glutton or sex addict or something. Our brains have physically evolved to receive a certain strength of sensation, so I think that excess would probably have a negative effect on us and our society.

  22. #20
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Bionics. Progress for the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by AuspiciousFist View Post
    I'd be nervous about getting any significant permanent enhancements to my senses like taste and touch...it seems that that would give the sense a disproportionately large influence on my psyche and I would end up becoming a glutton or sex addict or something. Our brains have physically evolved to receive a certain strength of sensation, so I think that excess would probably have a negative effect on us and our society.
    What if we say added tiny machines to bond together in our skin to make it say 100 times more resistant to burns. We wouldn't need to feel pain the same way if we aren't being injured.

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. An Open Letter To The Human Race
    By Scarlett44 in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: September 22nd, 2009, 03:27 PM
  2. What if the human race disappeared?
    By Snoop in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: November 29th, 2006, 05:00 PM
  3. what if you were the sole remainder of the human race?
    By DED in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: December 31st, 2005, 03:10 PM
  4. the human race....how and when?...:O)
    By CC in forum Hypothetical Debates
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: June 1st, 2004, 09:42 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •