Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 34 of 34
  1. #21
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Ghana, West Africa
    Posts
    98
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Mordecai - I always thought of humility as an important part of integrity.
    Quite profound. I agree.

    I've found that great people thinking of themselves as ordinary is a part of their greatness, not a result of being great.

    Someguy - Humility is for the weak.
    I agree, because it is the weak who need strength. Humility is strength. It is for the weak.



    Ethan
    Thinking is NOT an automatic process

  2. Likes Mordecai, Lukecash12 liked this post
  3. #22
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,483
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Perhaps I was a little harsh in saying that humility is for the weak....however, I stand by my opinion that humility is over-rated and not as much of a virtue as people say it is. Apart from the religious aspects of it, what reason is there to be humble?
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  4. #23
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,388
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Perhaps I was a little harsh in saying that humility is for the weak....however, I stand by my opinion that humility is over-rated and not as much of a virtue as people say it is. Apart from the religious aspects of it, what reason is there to be humble?
    Humility engenders cooperation. Bragging engenders rivalry and conflict. While some competition is very good, outright conflict and hostility is generally not. Having a good sense of when to show humility shows social grace and is helpful in creating greater cooperation and harmony.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  5. #24
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,053
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Humility engenders cooperation. Bragging engenders rivalry and conflict. While some competition is very good, outright conflict and hostility is generally not. Having a good sense of when to show humility shows social grace and is helpful in creating greater cooperation and harmony.
    That supports only the idea that sometimes it is advantageous to appear to be humble, but not the proposition that it is a good idea to actually be humble.

    I agree with Someguy. I doubt that many truly great people have been or are sincerely humble. I suspect they know that they are superior to the hoi polloi and express that knowledge in various ways; eg, "I am President of the United States, clothed with immense power!!!" Lincoln is alleged to have said, among other 'unhumble' things.

    However, to have the ability to merely appear to be humble at selected times, especially when dealing with one's enemies, is a definite asset.

  6. #25
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,388
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    That supports only the idea that sometimes it is advantageous to appear to be humble, but not the proposition that it is a good idea to actually be humble.
    I suppose I've always considered humility as an outward behavior rather than an inward feeling. Much how courage is not a lack of fear but acting in spite of fear, humility is acting as if you were not special even though you almost certainly are.

    Personally I think pride is a good thing, but being a braggart is not.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  7. #26
    Registered User

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Manteca, CA
    Posts
    1,443
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I suppose I've always considered humility as an outward behavior rather than an inward feeling. Much how courage is not a lack of fear but acting in spite of fear, humility is acting as if you were not special even though you almost certainly are.

    Personally I think pride is a good thing, but being a braggart is not.
    And in the Christian viewpoint, any specialness we have that is above and beyond the specialness already inherent in being human, is a gift. So, while being special we ought not to act as if we were special by comparison.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
    Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

  8. #27
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,053
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I suppose I've always considered humility as an outward behavior rather than an inward feeling.
    Ah, so you're a behaviorist? IOW, what matters in defining some behavior or other is only the outward, observable appearance of the behavior and not the cognitive state that gave rise to the behavior?


    Much how courage is not a lack of fear but acting in spite of fear . . .
    Hmm. Now I'm confused. This seems to contradict what you just wrote about how you believe that an act of humility is determined. In the one case you seem to say that one's cognitive state does not influence how some act should be characterized but in the other you seem to say that one's cognitive state does influence that determination.

    . . . humility is acting as if you were not special even though you almost certainly are.
    By this, do you mean to say ". . . humility is acting as if you are not special even though you believe you almost certainly you are" or do you mean something else?

    If you do mean the former then I believe that many people would hesitate in characterizing such as an act of true humility . . . just as many would be hesitant to characterize someone's charging a machine gun's nest to save his platoon as truly courageous if that someone felt absolutely no fear or trepidation while doing so.

    To be truly courageous one has to act bravely while experiencing normal feelings of fear and trepidation. To be truly humble one has to act with humility while sincerely believing that one really isn't superior to or in some way "above" other people.

    I saw a Silver Star winner being interviewed on TV just the other day. The guy seemed to me to be truly humble. He was convincingly matter-of-fact in the telling of his extraordinary tale. He described his actions as no more than those that virtually any soldier he knew would take should that other soldier find himself in those same circumstances. He seemed to sincerely believe that his actions were nothing special or extraordinary and seemed to be genuinely surprised to find that so many others thought differently about it.

    Whether this brave soldier really, sincerely believes the words he spoke or whether he was just mouthing those words because he figured that they were the words that people wanted to hear would determine whether or not he truly is humble.

  9. #28
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Seattle, Washington USA
    Posts
    7,388
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    Ah, so you're a behaviorist? IOW, what matters in defining some behavior or other is only the outward, observable appearance of the behavior and not the cognitive state that gave rise to the behavior?
    I am from a moral perspective. Which is to say it is your behavior that matters. You may have the drive to murder everyone you meet but if you are instead kind to them, I would judge you a moral person. Morality (my view of it) is about rules that make social interaction and cooperation work for the good of that social group. It is not about ones internal impulses but what one does or does not do as a result of them. Moral codes were invented to help control impulsive behaviors that damage the social group, and to encourage behaviors that benefit the social group.

    Hmm. Now I'm confused. This seems to contradict what you just wrote about how you believe that an act of humility is determined. In the one case you seem to say that one's cognitive state does not influence how some act should be characterized but in the other you seem to say that one's cognitive state does influence that determination.
    Lets see if I can explain (my prior statement I don't think covers the full range of my thoughts). There is a tension between many moral virtues and what we would call natural human instinct. When you are afraid the instinct is fight or flight (survival). When you are proud the instinct is to advertise that to others (attracting mates). Those behaviors are not always useful for society, in fact they can often cause problems so we create moral virtues to encourage behaviors more fitting for society.

    When someone shows bravery in the face of danger, we mostly assume they have an instinct to run. When someone is humble in the face of great achievement, we assume their instinct is to boast. Not everyone actually has those impulses but they are the common feeling so they are generally assumed. If someone were however humble when to our knowledge they have done nothing boast worthy, we would not say it is an example of virtue because it is simply the expected behavior to be humble when you have nothing to boast of.

    So its about expectations. Whether you truly feel fear or not, if you are in a situation where you would be expected to have fear, then acting as if you didn't have that fear will be considered brave whether you really were afraid or not. But the imagined conflict of impulse vs behavior is where moral virtues come into play.

    To be truly courageous one has to act bravely while experiencing normal feelings of fear and trepidation. To be truly humble one has to act with humility while sincerely believing that one really isn't superior to or in some way "above" other people.
    This pairing doesn't make sense. In the first you have someone acting in contrary to their impulse, and in the second you have someone acting in concert with their impulse. I think the first is more descriptive of what we would typically call a moral virtue. When one is accomplished we expect them to be proud and boastful and when they are instead humble we are thankful for their restraint.

    I saw a Silver Star winner being interviewed on TV just the other day. The guy seemed to me to be truly humble. He was convincingly matter-of-fact in the telling of his extraordinary tale. He described his actions as no more than those that virtually any soldier he knew would take should that other soldier find himself in those same circumstances. He seemed to sincerely believe that his actions were nothing special or extraordinary and seemed to be genuinely surprised to find that so many others thought differently about it.
    But we know he is wrong. His actions were special in that they are contrary to the expectations of what typical human impulses are. Either he is proud of his actions or he is unusual in that he doesn't see them as exceptional even though society has decided they are worth celebrating. Humility requires earnestness whether it is true or not you don't know and can only guess. But again, its not just about his actual internal state, its more about what we expect his internal state to be "normally."

    Whether this brave soldier really, sincerely believes the words he spoke or whether he was just mouthing those words because he figured that they were the words that people wanted to hear would determine whether or not he truly is humble.
    I disagree. I think that the reason humility is a virtue is it is contrary to typical human impulse and yet beneficial for society. While we would still call him humble if he truly believed he was not special, it would be an unusual circumstance and not typical of the virtue of humility.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  10. #29
    Registered User

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Manteca, CA
    Posts
    1,443
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    @Rodriguez:

    By this, do you mean to say ". . . humility is acting as if you are not special even though you believe you almost certainly you are" or do you mean something else?
    Not to butt in on an interesting little exchange, but I think something of interest can be said here. In my mind, there are types of things that make people special. For one, being human makes one special, because that entails culture, thought, novelty, potential, etc. Now, when someone is especially talented at something, that is special as well. But when people are boastful and arrogant because of that, they are failing to register just how novel everyone else is. Their experience becomes the most novel in their minds. Everyone is entitled to regard and concern because of the first type of special I laid out. Individuals are entitled to regard and concern only in the specific context of their other special qualities.
    There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.
    Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

  11. #30
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Ghana, West Africa
    Posts
    98
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Here is a short exchange I came accross a little while ago.

    Thread - Re: The "Right" to Secede from a State?
    Thread started by - KingOfTheEast
    Post #18

    Originally Posted by Ibelsd - I'd say it is a fundamental right. States, Sub-national bodies, etc are just bodies of people wishing to identify under a common set of laws. Should they choose to associate with a large group of nations, they should have that right and if they choose to disassociate from the larger group, they should also have that right. Freedom of association. Freedom of speech.
    To which Kivam replied,

    How about counties? Towns? Neighborhoods? Individual streets? Can I declare my house the Republic of Kivamia?
    Ibelsd seems a little irritated. He could have had great fun with that wonderfully cheeky question by Kivam, but he plays it straight.

    I guess selective reading is your strong point. So let me repeat this since it seems it has been overlooked by all
    Let's not let ourselves get too far removed from reality. In the world of nation-states, might makes right.
    I have the right to declare my home and property my own country. Good luck to me defending it.
    Kivamia. lol Rich. Wonder how one would pronounce that? ki-VA-mia? kiva-ME-ah? KEY-va-mia?

    Ethan
    Thinking is NOT an automatic process

  12. #31
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,339
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    I am getting the feeling I have a secret admirer on ODN. Ethan, just remember, flattery will get you everywhere. J/k. Deserved or not, thanks for the recognition.

    ---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

    Some of my favs.

    SharmaK

    kids up to 26yrs


    Chadn737

    26 year olds are not kids and anyone calling themselves one should be ashamed. Get off the tit already.


    -------------------------------------------------------

    KevinBrowning
    "Homophobia," as in severe, paralyzing fear of homosexuals, similar to acrophobia, arachnophobia, coulrophobia, etc., may exist in extremely rare cases, but I've never seen a case of it.
    Dionysus
    You... you've never seen a case of it?? Ahhh... CURSES! You win THIS round, Browning. But I'll be back, and you will KNEEL before Zod!

    Anyway, I think your case just hasn't been made, bro. You've got to show some of these people you're talking about, I think.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  13. #32
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    193
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Perhaps I was a little harsh in saying that humility is for the weak....however, I stand by my opinion that humility is over-rated and not as much of a virtue as people say it is. Apart from the religious aspects of it, what reason is there to be humble?
    Nobody will like you. Your vary attitude towards humility makes me want to punch you in the nose

    ---------- Post added at 02:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    That supports only the idea that sometimes it is advantageous to appear to be humble, but not the proposition that it is a good idea to actually be humble.

    I agree with Someguy. I doubt that many truly great people have been or are sincerely humble. I suspect they know that they are superior to the hoi polloi and express that knowledge in various ways; eg, "I am President of the United States, clothed with immense power!!!" Lincoln is alleged to have said, among other 'unhumble' things.

    However, to have the ability to merely appear to be humble at selected times, especially when dealing with one's enemies, is a definite asset.
    Only humble people are truly great.

  14. #33
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Perhaps I was a little harsh in saying that humility is for the weak....however, I stand by my opinion that humility is over-rated and not as much of a virtue as people say it is. Apart from the religious aspects of it, what reason is there to be humble?
    To me, it shows great strength. Those who feel the need to brag about their achievements or skills are typically those who don't have them and need to TALK about such skills/qualities so that they can get noticed. Those who are more humble about themselves typically let their actions speak for themselves and are usually noticed because of their skills (not because they had to mention them).

    I used to teach the art of sales to loan officers and real estate agents and I used to tell them (and still do my children): If you have to tell people how great you are, then you probably aren't. In other words, don't tell me, show me. It's the principle of "Telling is not selling."

    "When you say it about yourself it's bragging. When someone else says it about you its proof." -Jeffrey Gitomer (professional sales trainer and author).
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  15. #34
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Ghana, West Africa
    Posts
    98
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: ODN's Greatest Replies

    Your vary attitude towards humility makes me want to punch you in the nose
    LOL!! I would cited that except it's already posted in the thread.
    Thinking is NOT an automatic process

  16. Likes Michael liked this post
 

 
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Similar Threads

  1. ODN's Pub
    By Spartacus in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: September 18th, 2009, 07:49 PM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: October 2nd, 2007, 01:41 PM
  3. College, plus the replies to the thread aboot what i would need
    By Bf55 in forum Shootin' the Breeze / Off-Topic
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: September 29th, 2007, 08:22 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •