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  1. #1
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    The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    I'm surprised there is no thread about this yet. Basically, in response to ongoing rocket attacks by Palestinians intentionally aimed at and murdering Israeli civilians, Israel has defended itself with air strikes on Gaza, targeting Hamas buildings, although some civilians have also unfortunately but unavoidably been killed and injured.

    I do not see how anyone could deny Israel the right to self-defense, aside from a large dose of anti-Semitism, or simply the bandwagon mentality to support a "cool" cause, i.e. Palestinian "liberation."

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  3. #2
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Of course, the Fatah-controlled West Bank and Palestinian Authority should be taken into account as well when considering this issue, particularly the recent vote that granted Palestine non-member observer status in the U.N.

    I think Israel should work with the PA to create a sense of legitimacy in the Palestinian government, create a stable two-state system, and work together to prevent extremist attacks. Makes a lot more sense than occupation.
    "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something."-Plato

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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    I do not see how anyone could deny Israel the right to self-defense, aside from a large dose of anti-Semitism, or simply the bandwagon mentality to support a "cool" cause, i.e. Palestinian "liberation."
    Israel is not guiltless in all of this. Both sides in this conflict are huge dicks.
    ~Zealous

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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    What specifically did Israel do that you do not approve of?
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Other than those who think Israel should be destroyed, I don't know of anyone thinking they should not defend themselves.

    That doesn't mean many don't have sympathy for Palestinian civilians. Its a pretty suck place to live for a host of reasons, among them Israels strong hand. Now if the place wasn't a hotbed of violence against Israel... well then there would be more room for Israel to relax its choke hold on the place.

    Personally I've about given up on hopes for resolution beyond the constant low level violence, pretty sad that.
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    What specifically did Israel do that you do not approve of?
    In this single instance or in general?
    ~Zealous

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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    This specific instance (that seems to be the focus of the discussion from what I understand in the op).
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  9. #8
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZealousDemon View Post
    Israel is not guiltless in all of this. Both sides in this conflict are huge dicks.
    No individual or nation is completely "guiltless." But the Israelis are defending themselves, and have shown tremendous restraint. There is a gigantic moral difference between targeting innocent people and killing them intentionally, and unintentionally killing them, while targeting aggressors.

    As far as both sides being "dicks," perhaps you could give the thread a tad more seriousness, if you're bothering to participate. We're not talking about a schoolyard tussle.

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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    I'm surprised there is no thread about this yet. Basically, in response to ongoing rocket attacks by Palestinians intentionally aimed at and murdering Israeli civilians, Israel has defended itself with air strikes on Gaza, targeting Hamas buildings, although some civilians have also unfortunately but unavoidably been killed and injured.


    Uh... A little loaded, but all right.



    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    I do not see how anyone could deny Israel the right to self-defense, aside from a large dose of anti-Semitism, or simply the bandwagon mentality to support a "cool" cause, i.e. Palestinian "liberation."


    Well! Now that the well has been thoroughly poisoned...

    I hope the parameters of this discussion aren't limited to those who think Israel should have the right to defend itself and those who think it shouldn't.

    The subject is a wee bit more complicated than the OP suggests.

    First, you're not mentioning that as a result of the Iron Dome missile defense technologies (made with American aid and technology), ~90% of the bombs lobbed into Israel aren't hitting their mark. 'Or anything, for that matter. Case in point, the last time I checked up on this issue last week, only 2 Israelis had been killed and a few more injured. Those aren't made-up statistics, but I suppose my sources could be wrong. I'm not about to go source-hunting (it shouldn't be necessary), but, if you've got a source which says that I'm most certainly wrong, please let me know. That said, the PA has no missile defense technologies of which I'm aware. 'Except maybe mountains.

    You're also not mentioning that the world over seems to believe the PA should be given its own state. Israel has been attempting to settle Palestinian land and as a result, the 1967 borders everyone is talking about (or was last year, anyway), aren't going to work.

    The subject is thoroughly muddled at this point. Israel does seem like a bit of an aggressor at times, especially since the technologies it wields are so vastly superior to much of what the PA has. Of course, just about all of Israel's neighbors either hate Her or only put up with Her for fear of this, that, or the third. Yes, Israel is sometimes unfairly attacked, so I'm not about to start harping on about how evil Israel is.

    I don't think anybody's saying Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself. I haven't heard it on any American news, the international news I generally prefer doesn't take that opinion, and I'm certainly not saying it. Personally, I think the only people saying such things are, as I've mentioned, poisoning the well.

    But I do think Israel has a preference for foregoing the velvet glove and I think that propensity has brought us closer to this point. I also think that Israel, knowing full-well that America will back Her at most turns, is a little more stubborn than it ought to be, with negotiations regarding borders and a few other issues, as well.

    So, with specific regard to the OP, I think Israel does have the right to defend itself. I don't know if the aerial strikes were necessary, but some show of force certainly was. That said, I don't know if the show of force was necessary because Hamas and Hizbollah have lost their minds, or if Hamas and Hizbollah have lost their minds because Israel isn't as diplomatic as She could be.

    (I'm not a zionist or an anti-zionist. I support Israel, both as an American ally and as a vital ally in that particular region, but I don't like the "feeling" I get from Israel, which the world tends to share, that Israel uses America's backing to be more aggressive than She ought.)

  11. #10
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    fyi, here's an article about the Iron Dome defense system: http://www.technologyreview.com/news...ctually-works/
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  13. #11
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    This specific instance (that seems to be the focus of the discussion from what I understand in the op).
    Admittedly, I haven't paid much attention to what catalyst caused this specific flareup of violence, but I don't think you really can separate this specific instance from the wider conflict. These two sides have been fighting for what, at least 60-70 years now right? The conflict has such a history and has been raging for so long and has so many twists and turns that basically all you need to do is light a firecracker and the whole thing starts up again. Regardless of who lights the firecracker or who escalates beyond the firecracker, both sides have contributed the region's explosiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    As far as both sides being "dicks," perhaps you could give the thread a tad more seriousness, if you're bothering to participate. We're not talking about a schoolyard tussle.
    Just because it's not a schoolyard tussle doesn't mean both sides aren't acting like children.
    ~Zealous

  14. #12
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    I'm surprised there is no thread about this yet. Basically, in response to ongoing rocket attacks by Palestinians intentionally aimed at and murdering Israeli civilians, Israel has defended itself with air strikes on Gaza, targeting Hamas buildings, although some civilians have also unfortunately but unavoidably been killed and injured.

    I do not see how anyone could deny Israel the right to self-defense, aside from a large dose of anti-Semitism, or simply the bandwagon mentality to support a "cool" cause, i.e. Palestinian "liberation."

    I regularly stand in awe of the degree of restraint Israel demonstrates with respect to the fake nation of Palestine. Given the history, I would support Israel deciding to annihilate Palestine completely and being done with it.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZealousDemon View Post
    Admittedly, I haven't paid much attention to what catalyst caused this specific flareup of violence, but I don't think you really can separate this specific instance from the wider conflict. These two sides have been fighting for what, at least 60-70 years now right? The conflict has such a history and has been raging for so long and has so many twists and turns that basically all you need to do is light a firecracker and the whole thing starts up again. Regardless of who lights the firecracker or who escalates beyond the firecracker, both sides have contributed the region's explosiveness.
    I agree. But there is a distinction to be made between the various events that transpire. Take the Hatfields and McCoys as an example. A feud that was longstanding and had a particular origin. Many events transpired during this conflict. But let's say that both sides came to an agreement, a cease-fire. This cease-fire lasted for 6 months. Then one of the families sees someone from the other, and kills him.

    Is it the case that:

    1) Both sides are to blame for this man being murdered due to there existing a longstanding feud?

    or

    2) One side is to blame for this man being murdered?

    And does the fact that there was a standing cease-fire play into the equation here?

    I'd answer:

    1) No.
    2) Yes.
    Cease-Fire) While blame can be found through #2, the fact that the murder occurred during a cease-fire speaks volumes about one of the families.

    It is a fact, that it is Israel's opposition that has broken the cease-fire and done so historically, every single time.

    No one said that Israel has not made mistakes. But just because a party makes mistakes in no way means that both parties share equal parts blame.
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLocke View Post
    Of course, the Fatah-controlled West Bank and Palestinian Authority should be taken into account as well when considering this issue, particularly the recent vote that granted Palestine non-member observer status in the U.N.

    I think Israel should work with the PA to create a sense of legitimacy in the Palestinian government, create a stable two-state system, and work together to prevent extremist attacks. Makes a lot more sense than occupation.
    Is that a feasible plan given the state sponsorship of those attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZealousDemon View Post
    Admittedly, I haven't paid much attention to what catalyst caused this specific flareup of violence, but I don't think you really can separate this specific instance from the wider conflict. These two sides have been fighting for what, at least 60-70 years now right? The conflict has such a history and has been raging for so long and has so many twists and turns that basically all you need to do is light a firecracker and the whole thing starts up again. Regardless of who lights the firecracker or who escalates beyond the firecracker, both sides have contributed the region's explosiveness.
    Could you offer then, some specific complaints as to Israel's actions in general then? So far your contribution hasn't risen above platitudes.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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  17. #15
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZealousDemon View Post
    Just because it's not a schoolyard tussle doesn't mean both sides aren't acting like children.
    Ok. It would be nice if everyone could "grow up" and live peacefully, but human nature doesn't tend to permit that. Anyway, do you have any specific contributions to this discussion, other than "both sides are at fault"?

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  19. #16
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Ok. It would be nice if everyone could "grow up" and live peacefully, but human nature doesn't tend to permit that. Anyway, do you have any specific contributions to this discussion, other than "both sides are at fault"?
    Given the history of "Palestine's" unwarranted aggression and unwillingness to both live in peace and seek out, honestly, a means to peace.... Israel should take them out and be done with it in my opinion. I wouldn't be so patient if someone was attacking my women and children and actively speaking about my completely destruction.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  20. #17
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I regularly stand in awe of the degree of restraint Israel demonstrates with respect to the fake nation of Palestine. Given the history, I would support Israel deciding to annihilate Palestine completely and being done with it.
    But what about the people that live there? Should the all be killed because Israel neither wants them as citizens nor is willing to allow them liberty? Is Israel's peace of mind worth the lives of millions? And do you honestly think if Israel killed millions of Palestinians they would have a friend left in the world?

    It just isn't that simple.

    The only way a military campaign could settle the matter is if Israel takes invades the territories and does one of two things.
    1. Establishes a well defined, friendly and stable government and respects its sovereignty
    2. Makes the territories part of Israel and accepts the people as citizens.

    Both have serious challenges
    The challenge with 1 are....
    a. Its not a big enough or rich enough place to afford the true mechanisms of a strong state that can control its borders or the actions of its citizens.
    b. Most of the people feel hostility to Israel so how can you have a legitimate government that reflects its peoples attitudes yet prevents hostility with its neighbor?

    The challenge with 2 is...
    a. Israel is a democracy and the Palestinians are very numerous so if they accept them as citizens it dramatically changes the political scene such that Israel looses the identity it has. That might be fine for all of us but its like Israel choosing to destroy itself, something we will not see happen.
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    But what about the people that live there? Should the all be killed because Israel neither wants them as citizens nor is willing to allow them liberty?
    That is a common but utterly false misconception. Israel does not prevent Palestinians from residing in Israel. Israel has a diverse population including many Arabs, who are given full and equal rights. The same sadly cannot be said for Jews in most Arab nations.

  22. #19
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    That is a common but utterly false misconception. Israel does not prevent Palestinians from residing in Israel. Israel has a diverse population including many Arabs, who are given full and equal rights. The same sadly cannot be said for Jews in most Arab nations.
    I don't think you understand what I am saying. I am not saying that Israel is only composed of Jews, I am saying that Israel is not willing to give citizenship to everyone living in the occupied territories. It would be a bit like us agreeing to accept everyone in Mexico as US citizens. It is not about if you accept diversity but about changing the very identity of your country.

    In a non-democracy, you can conquer such territories. Hold them as subjects until such time they are sufficiently homogenized with the source (this is what is happening in Tibet). In a democracy if you conquer a group and give them a full voice, they will seek to use their power to break off again or take over your government.
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  23. #20
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    Re: The recent escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It would be a bit like us agreeing to accept everyone in Mexico as US citizens. It is not about if you accept diversity but about changing the very identity of your country.
    And why would we do that? Not everyone in Mexico even wants to live here or be a citizen. The same is true of Israel and the Palestinians. It comes down to the fact that most Arabs hate Jews, and they simply don't like having them around. They just need to get rid of their hate and deal with it. Sounds trite, but it's actually that simple. If the Israelis wanted to, they could completely obliterate Hamas. They have the military capacity, and then some. But they have decency, so they don't.

    Hamas and the Palestinians need to learn a little humility, and realize they are on the weak side of the bargaining table. Or eventually they will push just a little too hard, and it will be too late, and Israel will simply occupy the entire former nation back to the 1948 borders. The UN and all the anti-Semites in Europe will be powerless to help them, and the U.S. certainly won't.

 

 
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