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  1. #1
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    Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    It is illegal to discuss this in many countries so I would advise caution to those that participate that do not live in the United States.

    The very fact that something is illegal to discuss makes me extremely suspicious. It also makes me distrust the international court, and the UN. In many countries it is now illegal to deny a international ruling of genocide. Free speech is not a right appreciated by the international community. The United States must always keep its sovereignty, and always support the bill of rights/freedom of speech. Currently the U.S. has signed UN/international treaties which could in theory strip the American people of their rights.

    I'm posting this in the conspiracy section because it is so controversial, and I do not want to post the idea as fact at this time. Although I feel it is a worthy topic of discussion.

    The idea of this conspiracy is that either Jews were not victims of mass murder during world war 2, or that the numbers reported were grossly exaggerated to gain support for the Zionist movement. Many historians and scholars have been demonized, fired, or have lost all credibility for even questioning the idea. To question the holocaust or even the numbers of Jews mass murdered has been labeled anti-Semitic, and even outlawed in more than 15 countries now. The more popular theory has been that while the holocaust did take place the number of Jews murdered was exaggerated to over 6 million when in reality the numbers were closer to 300,000-600,000. This theory also would suggest that the Nazis were part of the Zionist movement, and that Zionist encouraged the persecution of Jews to further their cause. Much propaganda was spread before the first and second world wars demonizing Jews including the protocols of the elders of zion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pro...Elders_of_Zion. Later denounced as a work of fiction and a hoax. Still the protocols resemble closely what has transpired over the last 100-200 years extremely accurately. If we separate Zionist from Jew they can no longer use the anti-Semitic shield and the truth can be revealed whatever it may be.

    Discuss....If you are permitted to by law.

    From Wiki...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

    Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 17 countries: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[185] The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivializing "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[186] Slovakia criminalized denial of fascist crimes in general in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide. The Parliament of Hungary adopted the most recent legislation, which declared denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment, in February 2010.[187]
    Last edited by Michael; December 10th, 2012 at 08:52 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    The fact that denying the Holocaust occurred is illegal in much of Europe, simply highlights the fact that much of Europe does not share the fundamental value of the freedom of speech, which has always been a constitutional right in the U.S. It does not reasonably imply that the Holocaust was a fabricated or exaggerated historical event.

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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Much propaganda was spread before the first and second world wars demonizing Jews including the protocols of the elders of zion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pro...Elders_of_Zion. Later denounced as a work of fiction and a hoax. Still the protocols resemble closely what has transpired over the last 100-200 years extremely accurately. If we separate Zionist from Jew they can no longer use the anti-Semitic shield and the truth can be revealed whatever it may be.

    Discuss....If you are permitted to by law.

    187]
    This has become quite typical of anti-Semitic groups lately. Faced with the overwhelming proof that the Protocols are manufactured and completely discounted, they nevertheless imply that what the Jews have accomplished in business, politics, entertainment and finance mirrors closely the narrative of the Protocols in that there is a shadowy group of Jews bent on world domination and control. It is nothing but the same pig with lipstick on. If you are going to assert that the protocols narrative and history are so similar, than I have no choice but to challenge you to show proof. And keep in mind that the overarching implication of the text of the Protocols is not necessarily just the success of Jews in world affairs, but that such success is guided by a secret cabal of Jews with nefarious intent.
    If all you can prove is that Jews or Israel have been successful or influential, but can't show a concerted conspiracy, then you should retract the statement that "they resemble closely" what has transpired in the last 1 or 2 hundred years.
    As for the "dangers" of discussing holocaust denial or making anti Semitic remarks, I challenge you to show where someone writing in a forum has been prosecuted by their host country under these laws. Examples may very well exist, but I can find none. I think your ending caveat was intended to imply that normal people live under the shadow of some Zionist conspiracy trying to suppress the truth (as you see it).

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  6. #4
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    Re: Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    The denial itself is ******** but I don't think ******** should not be strictly illegal.

    In Germany I can to some extent understand why it is illegal from a practical standpoint but my principles are that it should be legal to be a bigot or a fool.

    Zionism is real and a conspiracy in the sense that many parties and individuals have worked towards it, but its not a secret conspiracy in the UFO/Illuminati sense.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  8. #5
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    Re: Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    Kevin Browning said...
    The fact that denying the Holocaust occurred is illegal in much of Europe, simply highlights the fact that much of Europe does not share the fundamental value of the freedom of speech, which has always been a constitutional right in the U.S. It does not reasonably imply that the Holocaust was a fabricated or exaggerated historical event.
    I agree. I think its why we should be cautious when signing international treaties that could effect U.S. citizens rights. I think that allied forces are capable of fabricating such things. What if only 2 million jews were killed? does it matter?

    ---------- Post added at 09:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

    This has become quite typical of anti-Semitic groups lately. Faced with the overwhelming proof that the Protocols are manufactured and completely discounted, they nevertheless imply that what the Jews have accomplished in business, politics, entertainment and finance mirrors closely the narrative of the Protocols in that there is a shadowy group of Jews bent on world domination and control. It is nothing but the same pig with lipstick on. If you are going to assert that the protocols narrative and history are so similar, than I have no choice but to challenge you to show proof. And keep in mind that the overarching implication of the text of the Protocols is not necessarily just the success of Jews in world affairs, but that such success is guided by a secret cabal of Jews with nefarious intent.
    If all you can prove is that Jews or Israel have been successful or influential, but can't show a concerted conspiracy, then you should retract the statement that "they resemble closely" what has transpired in the last 1 or 2 hundred years.
    As for the "dangers" of discussing holocaust denial or making anti Semitic remarks, I challenge you to show where someone writing in a forum has been prosecuted by their host country under these laws. Examples may very well exist, but I can find none. I think your ending caveat was intended to imply that normal people live under the shadow of some Zionist conspiracy trying to suppress the truth (as you see it).
    I think your missing the point Tanus. The protocols are shown to be fiction yet the actual implementation of the plan for world domination seems to be taking place. So in this it resembles the last 100-200 years of history. I wouldn't lay blame at a religion or race. Do the masters of Zion have to be Jewish...I dont think so. I think they could be Christian, or even Satanists. What if Zionist actually promoted the persecution of Jews to further there cause?

    There actually are cases of people being prosecuted for questioning the holocaust. I did show how 17 nations outlawed it, and yes they do enforce it.

    Here you go...
    Prosecutions and convictions

    Laws against Holocaust denial have been enforced in most jurisdictions that have them. Notable convictions and sentencings to November 2009 include:
    Date Name Country Sentence
    (various) Jean-Marie Le Pen France, Germany fines[55]
    Feb. 27, 1998 Roger Garaudy France imprisonment (suspended), ₣240,000 fine[56]
    Jul. 21, 1998 Jürgen Graf Switzerland 15 months imprisonment (fled Switzerland to avoid sentence)[57]
    Jul. 21, 1998 Gerhard Förster Switzerland 12 months imprisonment, disgorgement[58]
    April 8, 1999 Fredrick Töben Australia 7 months imprisonment Mannheim, Germany - retrial - 2011 indefinitely stayed by judge Dr Meinerzhagen. October 1 - November 19, 2008, London, extradition to Mannheim, Germany, on European Arrest Warrant issued by Germany, failed. August 15 - November 12, 2009, Adelaide, Australia - for contempt of court because he refused to stop questioning the Holocaust's 3 basics: 6 million, systematic state extermination, gas chambers as murder weapon.
    May 27, 1999 Jean Plantin France 6 months imprisonment (suspended), fine, damages[59]
    Apr. 11, 2000 Gaston-Armand Amaudruz Switzerland 1 year imprisonment, damages[60]
    Feb. 20, 2006 David Irving Austria 1 year imprisonment[61]
    Mar. 15, 2006 Germar Rudolf Germany 2½ years imprisonment[62]
    Oct. 3, 2006 Robert Faurisson France €7,500 fine, 3 months probation[63]
    Feb. 15, 2007 Ernst Zündel Germany 5 years imprisonment[64]
    Jan. 14, 2008 Wolfgang Fröhlich Austria 6 years imprisonment (third offence)[65]
    Jan. 15, 2008 Sylvia Stolz Germany 3½ years imprisonment[66]
    Mar. 11, 2009 Horst Mahler Germany 5 years imprisonment[67]
    Oct. 23, 2009 Dirk Zimmerman Germany 9 months imprisonment[68]
    Oct. 27, 2009 Richard Williamson Germany €12,000 fine[69] [later overturned]

  9. #6
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    Re: Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    When ideas are censored, people do not learn how to cope with these ideas. Without freedom of speech and free flow of ideas, people are held back. I doubt that censorship is effective as suppressing the idea, because the idea becomes forced underground and is not challenged in plain debate. Holocaust deniers are free to call the Holocaust a conspiracy because it actually is a conspiracy when government censorship is involved. Even if censorship is actually effective, it is wrong to punish a thoughtcrime, because they probably really believe what they espouse. How can someone obey a law which ey truly believe is wrong? It's a small step to go from punishing belief in something that society deems unacceptable to punishing belief in something that society deems undesirable.

  10. #7
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    Re: Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I agree. I think its why we should be cautious when signing international treaties that could effect U.S. citizens rights. I think that allied forces are capable of fabricating such things. What if only 2 million jews were killed? does it matter?

    ---------- Post added at 09:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------



    I think your missing the point Tanus. The protocols are shown to be fiction yet the actual implementation of the plan for world domination seems to be taking place. So in this it resembles the last 100-200 years of history. I wouldn't lay blame at a religion or race. Do the masters of Zion have to be Jewish...I dont think so. I think they could be Christian, or even Satanists. What if Zionist actually promoted the persecution of Jews to further there cause?
    Challenge - prove that the actual implementation of the plan for world domination seems to be taking place. - Challange


    There actually are cases of people being prosecuted for questioning the holocaust. I did show how 17 nations outlawed it, and yes they do enforce it.

    Here you go...
    Prosecutions and convictions

    Laws against Holocaust denial have been enforced in most jurisdictions that have them. Notable convictions and sentencings to November 2009 include:
    Date Name Country Sentence
    (various) Jean-Marie Le Pen France, Germany fines[55]
    Feb. 27, 1998 Roger Garaudy France imprisonment (suspended), ₣240,000 fine[56]
    Jul. 21, 1998 Jürgen Graf Switzerland 15 months imprisonment (fled Switzerland to avoid sentence)[57]
    Jul. 21, 1998 Gerhard Förster Switzerland 12 months imprisonment, disgorgement[58]
    April 8, 1999 Fredrick Töben Australia 7 months imprisonment Mannheim, Germany - retrial - 2011 indefinitely stayed by judge Dr Meinerzhagen. October 1 - November 19, 2008, London, extradition to Mannheim, Germany, on European Arrest Warrant issued by Germany, failed. August 15 - November 12, 2009, Adelaide, Australia - for contempt of court because he refused to stop questioning the Holocaust's 3 basics: 6 million, systematic state extermination, gas chambers as murder weapon.
    May 27, 1999 Jean Plantin France 6 months imprisonment (suspended), fine, damages[59]
    Apr. 11, 2000 Gaston-Armand Amaudruz Switzerland 1 year imprisonment, damages[60]
    Feb. 20, 2006 David Irving Austria 1 year imprisonment[61]
    Mar. 15, 2006 Germar Rudolf Germany 2½ years imprisonment[62]
    Oct. 3, 2006 Robert Faurisson France €7,500 fine, 3 months probation[63]
    Feb. 15, 2007 Ernst Zündel Germany 5 years imprisonment[64]
    Jan. 14, 2008 Wolfgang Fröhlich Austria 6 years imprisonment (third offence)[65]
    Jan. 15, 2008 Sylvia Stolz Germany 3½ years imprisonment[66]
    Mar. 11, 2009 Horst Mahler Germany 5 years imprisonment[67]
    Oct. 23, 2009 Dirk Zimmerman Germany 9 months imprisonment[68]
    Oct. 27, 2009 Richard Williamson Germany €12,000 fine[69] [later overturned]
    I said show examples of people on forums such as these being prosecuted for holocaust denial. You don't say what the above people were doing. I was trying to show that your warning to people on this forum about "discuss if it is not illegal for you" was baseless scaremongering meant to poison the well. Prove me wrong. Which of the above people were posting on forums such as these?

  11. #8
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    Re: Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    I can understand why it might be considered illegal in some of those European countries, many of which had Jews taken from them and moved to concentration camps. Obviously we can debate that even though it is controversial, should it still be illegal?
    I want to avoid that and address briefly the main topic, is the holocaust real or was it a conspiracy?
    I think history is utterly clear that it was real and that it happened. It was not so long ago that we do not have journals and documentations of the real horror. Also, I have been to the Dachau concentration camp myself. As part of the tour there, they show you the gas chambers where the killings took place. If this was all a conspiracy and not real events, why would Germany show these sites that only put shame on their own history?
    Also, to those that go so far as to say the holocaust is a zionist conspiracy to gain sympathy for their cause, show some solid evidence of this claim.

  12. #9
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    Re: Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    It is illegal to discuss this in many countries so I would advise caution to those that participate that do not live in the United States.

    The very fact that something is illegal to discuss makes me extremely suspicious. It also makes me distrust the international court, and the UN. In many countries it is now illegal to deny a international ruling of genocide. Free speech is not a right appreciated by the international community. The United States must always keep its sovereignty, and always support the bill of rights/freedom of speech. Currently the U.S. has signed UN/international treaties which could in theory strip the American people of their rights.

    I'm posting this in the conspiracy section because it is so controversial, and I do not want to post the idea as fact at this time. Although I feel it is a worthy topic of discussion.

    The idea of this conspiracy is that either Jews were not victims of mass murder during world war 2, or that the numbers reported were grossly exaggerated to gain support for the Zionist movement. Many historians and scholars have been demonized, fired, or have lost all credibility for even questioning the idea. To question the holocaust or even the numbers of Jews mass murdered has been labeled anti-Semitic, and even outlawed in more than 15 countries now. The more popular theory has been that while the holocaust did take place the number of Jews murdered was exaggerated to over 6 million when in reality the numbers were closer to 300,000-600,000. This theory also would suggest that the Nazis were part of the Zionist movement, and that Zionist encouraged the persecution of Jews to further their cause. Much propaganda was spread before the first and second world wars demonizing Jews including the protocols of the elders of zion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pro...Elders_of_Zion. Later denounced as a work of fiction and a hoax. Still the protocols resemble closely what has transpired over the last 100-200 years extremely accurately. If we separate Zionist from Jew they can no longer use the anti-Semitic shield and the truth can be revealed whatever it may be.

    Discuss....If you are permitted to by law.

    From Wiki...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

    Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 17 countries: Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[185] The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivializing "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[186] Slovakia criminalized denial of fascist crimes in general in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide. The Parliament of Hungary adopted the most recent legislation, which declared denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment, in February 2010.[187]
    It is most definatly NOT illegal to discuss anything here in the United States. I dont live in any of those EU states, so I cant speak as if I am.

    Also, denying that the holocaust happened is like denying that the color of the sky is blue or the fact that earth has a moon. Revising history is a very weak position to take. This sounds like something Howard Zinn would write. He'd probally change the details however.

  13. #10
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    Re: Holocaust deniers, and the great controversial conspiracy

    It is most definatly NOT illegal to discuss anything here in the United States. I dont live in any of those EU states, so I cant speak as if I am.

    Also, denying that the holocaust happened is like denying that the color of the sky is blue or the fact that earth has a moon. Revising history is a very weak position to take. This sounds like something Howard Zinn would write. He'd probally change the details however.
    Hcabret,

    Dont we have to question it though? The very fact that it is illegal in many countries is a reason that we must discuss this. We (as far as I know) live in a free country. There should be no topic that we can not discuss.

    Id also be extremely careful comparing events during WW2 to the sky being blue. Many ugly parts of history have been unclassified, and they are quite different versions than what we were taught in school. After a lot of reading I pretty much think everything I was taught in history class was ********. Especially the versions in grade school. History class in american grade schools is comparable to the belief in santa claus sadly.

    ---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

    International said " If this was all a conspiracy and not real events, why would Germany show these sites that only put shame on their own history? "
    Germany was defeated, and the german government no longer exists. The current government was created, and funded by the united states/western powers. As somebody once said " History is written by the victors".

 

 

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