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  1. #1
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    Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    So why dont we ban people? It seems obvious to me now that anyone with an IQ low enough should be put in jail. Since it is obvious that people kill people, then it is equally obvious that we should then outlaw "people" as a means of preventing people from killing people. Guns have nothing to do with it, they are just the tool of these illegally existed people that kill people use to kill people.

    I also say that we arm every person with the minimum automatic weapon and require people to use it even if they feel the slightest bit in danger.
    This is how americans sound.......... Guns primary purpose is to KILL, a gun has no other purpose. Get a clue america, repeal the 2nd amendment. NOW!

    RIP
    Last edited by Sigfried; March 13th, 2013 at 08:13 PM. Reason: removing insulting language

  2. #2
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    So, do you say that people should not have a right to keep implements with which to defend themselves from violent people who would hurt them?
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret View Post
    This is how moronic americans sound.......... Guns primary purpose is to KILL, a gun has no other purpose. Get a clue america, repeal the 2nd amendment. NOW!

    RIP
    I would also point out that this is how moronic non-americans sound when attempting to discuss the second amendment. Killing is not an evil, attempts to see the world in such a black and white perspective are equally ill informed. Killing someone about to murder 18 children for example is not an evil, it is a laudatory act.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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  5. #4
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCabret View Post
    This is how moronic americans sound.......... Guns primary purpose is to KILL, a gun has no other purpose. Get a clue america, repeal the 2nd amendment. NOW!

    RIP
    What does "primary purpose" have to do with anything exactly? It is a weapon, no doubt, but all weapons serve the purpose to incapacitate the enemy. Weapons can be evaluated by their strength. A knife is more "powerful" than a rock. A sword is more powerful than a knife. A gun is more powerful than a sword.

    Now, if someone is attacking you, and they have a knife, the possible scenarios, assuming it is just you and the attacker are:

    1) allow yourself to be harmed
    2) spend the time and resources to develop your skill in hand to hand combat against an attacker with a knife
    3) arm yourself with a knife, and spend the time and resources to develop your skill in knife fighting to defend against the attacker with a knife.
    4) have a more powerful weapon than the attacker with a knife to ensure you have the advantage

    Let's say there's an attacker + your and a loved one. Which of those 4 seems most reasonable...giving you the most advantage in a scenario like that? Here's my personal evaluation...

    1 - irrational, not an actual option as it allows criminals/murderers to do as they please at the expense of your life or a loved one's.
    2 and 3 - unrealistic, most people do not have the physical and mental ability to go toe to toe, unarmed against an attacker with a knife and it is unrealistic to expect everyone to pay (and spend the time) for this type of specialized training
    4 - the most realistic scenario as it puts the defender in the advantage, significantly increasing the odds of their survival and/or those being protected, either through necessary force or through mere deterrent.

    Outlawing all guns does not solve the problem of violence. It does at least 2 things...

    1) creates situations in which the defender has no reasonable means of defense (see above)
    2) gets rid of weapons from law abiding citizens but does absolutely nothing to criminals who do not user weapons registered to themselves


    I'm all for getting rid of violence. But it's naive to believe that the only reason (or even primary reason) we have gun violence in this country is because of the 2nd Amendment.

    ---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I would also point out that this is how moronic non-americans sound when attempting to discuss the second amendment. Killing is not an evil, attempts to see the world in such a black and white perspective are equally ill informed. Killing someone about to murder 18 children for example is not an evil, it is a laudatory act.
    It's up to 20 children now (18 at the scene, 2 at the hospital).

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ticut/1769367/

    ---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

    It is PEOPLE who are the problem. In China, there have been rampages of knife attacks in elementary schools. The latest attack left 22 injured. In another attack 8 children were killed. What did guns have to do with those attacks? Nothing. What does mental health have to do with those attacks? Everything.
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  6. #5
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    So Apok, by your logic, you advocate everyone to outgun potential attackers which of late, attack with no less then an arsenal. Perhaps you'd feel safer knowing every one was allowed to carry bazookas for protection (until such time where the mentally ill get bazookas for themselves of course)
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  7. #6
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Furthermore, data shows in states and many countries where stricter gun laws are imposed, gun crimes increase (not decrease).

    Take this video for example, a real life situation in which a legally registered gun owner (a senior citizen...someone who would NOT be able to defend himself or otherwise through combat training) prevents harm by 2 would be robbers:



    ---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    So Apok, by your logic, you advocate everyone to outgun potential attackers which of late, attack with no less then an arsenal. Perhaps you'd feel safer knowing every one was allowed to carry bazookas for protection (until such time where the mentally ill get bazookas for themselves of course)
    1) It isn't an issue of me "feeling" one way or another.
    2) I don't have a strong opinion on the 2nd Amendment either way.
    3) I object to unsound arguments, which was given in the op. My objection offers a possible counter-argument.

    That being said, there's quite a bit of a difference between a handgun and a bazooka. For one, the latter are not used any more. Secondly, it is a military grade weapon (which is not necessary for self-defense). Third, I do not necessarily support civilians carrying automatic weapons (and that would be more powerful than an automatic). There is indeed a line to be drawn.

    That line, seems reasonable at automatic weapons. You don't need to have an automatic weapon to be a serious threat to a would be assailant.

    My argument is NOT "you need to always have the more powerful weapon." My argument is "You need to have the ability to defend yourself or others in a reasonable manner." A handgun is one such reasonable manner. Hand to hand combat vs a knife wielder or someone with a handgun, is not a reasonable manner of defense. A "bazooka" vs a handgun is not a reasonable manner is it is not necessary and does much more harm than good due to it's obvious explosive power.
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  8. #7
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Agreed that the OP is poor.

    I think you need to support your data statement.

    I submit this suggesting more control means less gun related deaths, contrary to your unsupported claim.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...united-states/

    See #9
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  9. #8
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    So Apok, by your logic, you advocate everyone to outgun potential attackers which of late, attack with no less then an arsenal. Perhaps you'd feel safer knowing every one was allowed to carry bazookas for protection (until such time where the mentally ill get bazookas for themselves of course)
    This conclusion does not follow the premise Apok stated. I can stop a mass shooting with a weapon of equal or lesser firepower than the one of the attacker. Winning a gunfight is not about whether you have a better gun, it is about being able to incapacitate your opponent. That condition does not require a "bazooka."

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    I submit this suggesting more control means less gun related deaths, contrary to your unsupported claim.
    I would counter your claim with fact number three from your link. Little regulation of gun ownership occurs in both Israel and Switzerland and they have few mass shootings.

    I would also question the statistics used for number 9 since they are clearly inaccurate for the Texas/Illinois claim as can be seen here: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...es/10tbl04.xls

    I would also point out that there is only one statistically valid determining factor for the severity of a mass shooting. The time it takes for another firearm to arrive on the scene. http://www.utc.edu/Administration/De...ors/BlakeP.pdf

    Additionally, you are ignoring the number of potential murders that guns prevent or stop, which far exceeds the numbers they commit as I have shown here: http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post503851
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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  11. #9
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Agreed that the OP is poor.

    I think you need to support your data statement.

    I submit this suggesting more control means less gun related deaths, contrary to your unsupported claim.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...united-states/

    See #9
    It admitted that there is no causation, only correlation. Also, and more importantly, that stat isn't about gun related crimes, but rather gun deaths (as a result of a gun crime + accidents + self-defense + suicide). That's a different issue than the one I brought up. From the article it is citing:

    Note that these figures include accidental shootings, suicides, even acts of self-defense, as well as crimes.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-deaths/69354/
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  13. #10
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    The united states has, by far, the worst gun law's in all of the developed countries, in my opinion.
    Why isn't Obama not taking any action? what is he waiting for? I understand that there are a million other issue's to focus on, but
    this is just not acceptable, people are loosing their lives for no apparent purpose. That is not fair.

  14. #11
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara12 View Post
    The united states has, by far, the worst gun law's in all of the developed countries, in my opinion.
    Like what? This type of statement makes for great bumper stickers, but not much in the way of argumentation.
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  15. #12
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara12 View Post
    The united states has, by far, the worst gun law's in all of the developed countries, in my opinion.
    Why isn't Obama not taking any action? what is he waiting for? I understand that there are a million other issue's to focus on, but
    this is just not acceptable, people are loosing their lives for no apparent purpose. That is not fair.
    America has one of the best gun laws, in my opinion, in all of the developed countries. We need to keep moving towards Israel-type gun policies and encourage the education, training, and use of firearms for protection by good people. If every teacher was armed and properly trained in firearm usage, this incident wouldnt have happened, or at least, the gunman would have been taken out long before he killed 20 some odd people.

    Your argument amounts to little more than wishing for Gundrop Houses on Lollipop Lane
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  16. #13
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by APOK
    Also, and more importantly, that stat isn't about gun related crimes, but rather gun deaths (as a result of a gun crime + accidents + self-defense + suicide). That's a different issue than the one I brought up. From the article it is citing:

    Note that these figures include accidental shootings, suicides, even acts of self-defense, as well as crimes.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-deaths/69354/
    So important it makes the link irrelevant to the topic at hand I think. They will judge the U.S. as the most violent, yet the Middle east has bombings every day.
    Nice logic, lets just isolate the term "violent" to mean "killed with a gun". I bet if it was defined as "killed with a knife" china would be the worst. "killed by drug warlords" Africa or south America. Killed by genocide.... pick one.

    It isn't really a measure of "most violent" it is a measure of most popular implement of violence by nation. Yay. you have shown the u.s likes to use a gun. That does not equate to a valid argument for the U.S. being the most violent.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  17. #14
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    America has one of the best gun laws, in my opinion, in all of the developed countries. We need to keep moving towards Israel-type gun policies and encourage the education, training, and use of firearms for protection by good people. If every teacher was armed and properly trained in firearm usage, this incident wouldnt have happened, or at least, the gunman would have been taken out long before he killed 20 some odd people.

    Your argument amounts to little more than wishing for Gundrop Houses on Lollipop Lane
    The answer to reducing gun violence is not more but fewer guns. That's just common sense. Arming and training people will not protect against lunatics, it will just lead those intent on causing death and destruction to use more radical and violent means (grenades, suicide bombings etc), resulting in more casualties.

  18. #15
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALEX
    The answer to reducing gun violence is not more but fewer guns. That's just common sense. Arming and training people will not protect against lunatics, it will just lead those intent on causing death and destruction to use more radical and violent means (grenades, suicide bombings etc), resulting in more casualties.
    Not really. because Guns are easy to operate and obtain. Not every bum or lunatic knows how to make or get a bomb.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not really. because Guns are easy to operate and obtain. Not every bum or lunatic knows how to make or get a bomb.
    So you agree then that making guns harder to obtain is the way to go?
    A bomb is perhaps harder to get your hands on, but grenades and assault weapons apparently aren't (see Aurora).

  20. #17
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by alex62303 View Post
    So you agree then that making guns harder to obtain is the way to go?
    A bomb is perhaps harder to get your hands on, but grenades and assault weapons apparently aren't (see Aurora).
    How specifically does making guns harder to get, curb guns used in crimes when guns used in the vast majority of crimes are not registered to the person committing the crime?
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  21. #18
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by alex62303 View Post
    The answer to reducing gun violence is not more but fewer guns. That's just common sense. Arming and training people will not protect against lunatics, it will just lead those intent on causing death and destruction to use more radical and violent means (grenades, suicide bombings etc), resulting in more casualties.
    This is just ridiculous. Please justify your absurd claim that arming and properly training good, peaceful individuals in how to use firearms would somehow hurt more than help. It's just common sense that if the only people that are armed are lunatics, then the world is markedly more dangerous. Your argument reminds me of the abstinence only argument the religious right tries to use.

    I am a former Marine, expert shot. Me being armed at all times decreases the chance that any action like this would happen. There is no chance that someone would come into a building and shoot it up without having to deal with me. If there are 50 of me in a building, that place is far more protected and safe than you fairy-tale world.

    ---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    How specifically does making guns harder to get, curb guns used in crimes when guns used in the vast majority of crimes are not registered to the person committing the crime?
    Nah, we know how well making stuff illegal works. Come to think of it, we have a major meth, heroine, and crack problem in America....why not make those things illegal?
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  22. #19
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara12 View Post
    Why isn't Obama not taking any action? what is he waiting for?
    Because it's not Obama's job to take any action whatsoever. He's the President, not the king or the dictator, as much as he acts like he is and would like to behave as though he were. It is the job of Congress, *not* the President, to lay down new legislation if there is any action to be taken.

    It's this kind of ignorance about the way our government is structured and the separation of powers that has allowed the erosion of our liberties and the rise of tyranny in this country. I hope you're not American. If you are, you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself, because you would most likely fail the test of even the most basic knowledge of US Civics that every single immigrant has to pass in order to become a naturalized US Citizen. Think about that really hard... because if you wouldn't pass the test to become a US Citizen, I'm not sure you should still have the right to vote and participate in the shaping of our nation's policies and the choosing of its leaders.

    Here's a link to the US Constitution. Read it... understand it. It's basically being used as toilet paper by the Federal leviathan right now, because ill-informed opinions like the one stated above have become all too common in a society that's supposed to enshrine personal freedom - and the personal responsibility that goes with it - as one of its highest virtues. Nonetheless, it's still important because the shreds of it that have managed to remain intact are all that's standing between you and a totalitarian state. Disarmament of the people is one of the fastest ways to ensure that when the revolution comes, nobody has the power to prevent anyone from going up against the wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara12
    I understand that there are a million other issue's to focus on, but
    this is just not acceptable, people are loosing their lives for no apparent purpose. That is not fair.
    It's this kind of thinking with pathos only and not with an eye toward either the law or toward reason that contributes toward the rest of our problem as a nation. What's not acceptable is people taking this situation and looking to big Daddy Obama to step in, part the seas, and fix everything with a wave of his almighty hand.... or maybe his magic wand. Maybe he'll just descend from on high and magically vaporize all of our guns... or order the National Guard to come around and confiscate them all at gunpoint. That would fix the problem, I guess... right? Just make sure that all the guns are gone, so the evil people of the world have to pick up a knife or a stick or a brick or some nasty household chemicals to kill people when they decide to go bonkers and kill people... and nobody can stop them, because they don't have the effective means of stopping a determined attacker and the average police response time is 6 minutes from the time someone actually has the chance to activate the Emergency Response System. Six minutes is a long, long time to stalk through hallways with a machete or chainsaw or pipe-bombs or (gasp!!) an illegally obtained firearm... and kill everyone who stands in your way.

    The way we fix this senseless loss of lives is to stop making our schools a place where amoral lessons are taught and where God continues to be systematically and aggressively excluded even from passing mention. We start by teaching our kids right from wrong and stop peddling off this relativistic morality crap as having any semblance of truth. It's the "I'm OK, you're OK" mentality and the chronic and morally bankrupt need to turn every evil act into a "mental illness" instead of confronting it head-on as the reprehensible and utterly evil thing it was that's the root of the problem. Some people aren't "victims." Some people are just plain evil or choose to do evil things because they've been systematically desensitized to what "evil" actually is by years and years of hearing that people who do these sorts of things are just sick, not "bad people."

    Then, we make the decision as a nation that we will no longer tolerate this kind of crap from people who want to hurt others, and we all take steps on a personal and individual level to become more responsible for ensuring that this kind of thing can't happen again. We do away with so-called "gun free zones," which are basically nothing but death-traps for people who follow the law. We liberalize gun laws in every state and make CCW "shall-issue" in all states. We make firearms training readily available from every municipal police department and offer gun safety and marksmanship courses every weekend at reasonable or no cost to anyone who wants to come. In our neighborhoods, we get to know our neighbors and set up neighborhood watches. We ensure that teachers in tough schools have adequate numbers of fully armed and well-trained security guards and/or have a sidearm at their disposal. We teach our kids how to handle "active shooter" situations just like fire drills. We become proactive in our approach to this kind of stuff instead of sitting around like sheep waiting for the next evil butcher to show up for the slaughter.

    Government has already shown that it is utterly incapable of preventing this kind of thing from a centralized level. It's the abdication of personal responsibility that's allowed it to happen, and it's only the decision to take back that responsibility on an individual and personal basis that will help it to stop.
    Last edited by Talthas; December 14th, 2012 at 10:11 PM.
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    Re: Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    How specifically does making guns harder to get, curb guns used in crimes when guns used in the vast majority of crimes are not registered to the person committing the crime?
    Well, looking at recent mass shootings, several were committed using legally purchased and registered weapons, so that suggests that more gun control should have a positive impact. Of course, those who are determined enough and those with criminal ties will still be able to get their hands on whatever weapons they desire, but the goal should be to make this as hard as possible.
    Last edited by Talthas; December 14th, 2012 at 10:07 PM. Reason: cleaning up formatting. :)

 

 
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