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  1. #1
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    Christians: where is your outrage?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=is2x7QTZ8AI

    I just... why do mainstream Christians... sane rational compassionate Christians... why do you suffer fools like this?

    Why isn't the guy in the vid being DROWN in letters, tweets, phone calls and emails to apologize? Where is the outrage? If I were Christian and I loved the Christian god, I'd be MORTIFIED this person said these things. God goes where he's asked? The answer to why these children died is as simple and politically charged as "god no longer in the classroom"? Are you censored KIDDING ME? If I believed in the Christian god, I would be so monumentally insulted that anyone would use this tragedy in this way. Does this guy think we're that stupid? Does he really think that his god is so petty that he'd let CHILDREN DIE for right wing politics?

    Christian America, I know you're grieving. But when the grieving is over, please please please level some outrage at people (I use the term loosely) like this.

    And just so we're clear...

    Topic for debate: Mainstream Christians should be up in arms over the comments made in this video. The person in the video rationalizes the recent shooting of children by suggesting a ban on school prayers is (somehow) "responsible" for god's alleged inaction. While everyone is entitled to free speech, why are people like this buffoon taken seriously? He should be drown out by a tsunami of outraged compassionate Christians who will not tolerate such a ham-handed attempt at politicizing tragedy.

  2. #2
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Why isn't the guy in the vid being DROWN in letters, tweets, phone calls and emails to apologize?
    Probably because this video is virtually unknown to almost everyone in existence. It was published today.

    I wonder if there is any evidence of that being the case (it being virtually unknown, created by an unknown speaker that no one has ever heard of)?...


    Oh yes, there is...here it is right here for you Zhav...


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	gun.JPG 
Views:	32 
Size:	63.3 KB 
ID:	3319

    A mere 304 views!

    Topic for debate: Mainstream Christians should be up in arms over the comments made in this video. The person in the video rationalizes the recent shooting of children by suggesting a ban on school prayers is (somehow) "responsible" for god's alleged inaction. While everyone is entitled to free speech, why are people like this buffoon taken seriously? He should be drown out by a tsunami of outraged compassionate Christians who will not tolerate such a ham-handed attempt at politicizing tragedy.
    I don't see his argument any more well thought out than most of Pat Robertson's arguments. The difference however, is that this guy is a virtual unknown and thus, has very little to if any influence over people.
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  4. #3
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Mainstream Christians should be up in arms over the comments made in this video. The person in the video rationalizes the recent shooting of children by suggesting a ban on school prayers is (somehow) "responsible" for god's alleged inaction. While everyone is entitled to free speech, why are people like this buffoon taken seriously?
    Who says he is being taken seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    He should be drown out by a tsunami of outraged compassionate Christians who will not tolerate such a ham-handed attempt at politicizing tragedy.
    If I were to show the video to my Brother, who's a Christian, he'd probably say something like "That guy is a real ***hole" and that would be about it. I would guess that most Christians would agree to some extent.

    If you are saying that mere disapproval (my brother's assumed response) is inadequate, you will need to support that argument.

  5. #4
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    @Apok: That youtube vid is from Right Wing Watch. The BROADCAST is from Focal Point which is part of AFA radio... which airs in 33 states not counting affiliates. So the idea that this is just some isolated whack job is false.

    @Mican: What I'm debating is, "Why does this guy have an audience at all?" Who is out there who (unlike your completely anecdotal example) this guy thinks he's reaching and why isn't he getting kicked off the air for this sort of lunacy?

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  7. #5
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    What I'm debating is, "Why does this guy have an audience at all?"
    That's a question, not a debate position.

    And I thought the debate issue was "Mainstream Christians should be up in arms over the comments made in this video." That was what was forwarded in the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Who is out there who (unlike your completely anecdotal example) this guy thinks he's reaching and why isn't he getting kicked off the air for this sort of lunacy?
    I don't know enough about this guy to answer those question. I don't know where he broadcast from or who listens to him or if he violated station policy.

    But again, those are all questions.

    I can't debate your position if you won't clarify what it is.

  8. #6
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    @Apok: That youtube vid is from Right Wing Watch. The BROADCAST is from Focal Point which is part of AFA radio... which airs in 33 states not counting affiliates. So the idea that this is just some isolated whack job is false.
    I've never heard of the guy, nor AFA Radio. I can't even FIND the video on their website. Doesn't seem to be very influential there Zhav. You need to support that this guy and that station are readily heard and known for your case to have even the the most minute amount of weight to be considered.

    @Mican: What I'm debating is, "Why does this guy have an audience at all?" Who is out there who (unlike your completely anecdotal example) this guy thinks he's reaching and why isn't he getting kicked off the air for this sort of lunacy?
    Why do radical, leftwing terrorists have an audience at all? Because we are extremely diverse in this country and there are radicals in every corner. For example, most atheists do not intentionally create strawmen, yet the most radical, militant of the sort do. Most atheists do not disagree that Jesus was a historical person, but the extremists and less educated do. That there exists "radicals" in any society should be no surprise to anyone familiar with an introduction to Sociology course. In practically every culture there will exist a fringe. What is important however, when evaluating the culture, is to have a moderate understanding of proper critical thinking to know that there is indeed a difference between the beliefs and actions of the fringe and that of the mainstream. Those who are familiar know better than to commit a hasty generalization or biased sample fallacy in their argument against the mainstream. But then...there will always be the extremists out there...
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  9. #7
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZHAVRIC
    why do you suffer fools like this?
    If you mean "suffer" as in paying no attention to him at all, then that is my standard response to fools.

    If it was held that he spoke for me, or if I were to give him money or lift him up in any way.. then I could understand the OP.
    Same as above, only applied to general Christianity. Neither are true as far as I know.

    Officially, I don't agree with the idea that God didn't stop it because he is a gentleman. I would say it is because He is a Judge of nations.
    To serve man.

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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    I think Zhavric believes that any person who says they are a part of a particular group means that they agree with and defend any position/behavior/statement made by another person of that group. It's like saying "Stalin was an atheist and he killed millions. Where is the outrage from atheists?" It's a silly argument.
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  11. #9
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    This shooting happened because leftist secularists "kicked God out of school" is a common theme among Christian conservatives, and has been echoed many times today. See, e.g., Mike Huckabee: Newtown Shooting No Surprise, We've 'Systematically Removed God' From Schools http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2303792.html

    I find it completely sad that otherwise seemingly intelligent people answer the question of why God would allow 20 children to be massacred with "God was kicked out of school" (particularly when the actual answer is that God doesn't exist). The notion that God protects any person, including children, from danger is nothing more than a delusional fairy tale, believed only by gullible lemmings.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028
    Officially, I don't agree with the idea that God didn't stop it because he is a gentleman. I would say it is because He is a Judge of nations.
    No; it's very simply that God doesn't exist.

  12. #10
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    The whole "The shooting happened because God was kicked out of schools" argument is stupid as hell. It is offensive to me, as a Christian. Idiots like this do harm to the causes they are trying to champion and no one in the Christian community pays them any attention.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  13. #11
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Yeah, doesn't make sense. What about instances of terrorism or evils that take place in churches? Are they going to argue that people worshiping God makes God distance Himself from them? Not a very reasonable or well thought out position.
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  14. #12
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Yeah, doesn't make sense. What about instances of terrorism or evils that take place in churches? Are they going to argue that people worshiping God makes God distance Himself from them? Not a very reasonable or well thought out position.
    Yeah, maybe the church didn't have a sufficient quality of cookies to offer during their cookie sales. I heard that often encourages God's wrath.

    Seems to amount to little more than trolling to me.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Booger View Post
    This shooting happened because leftist secularists "kicked God out of school" is a common theme among Christian conservatives, and has been echoed many times today.
    How does 2-3 vocal Christian conservatives become a "common theme" among the rest of the hundred million + Christian conservatives? Someone not unaware that hasty generalization is a fallacy?

    ---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

    You know, another way to look at Huckabee's statement is that he is saying where we once used to promote morals and living by the examples of Christ...and now we don't. Meaning that as a society we have removed ourselves from teaching values other than "everything is acceptable." If that is what he's trying to say (in the flawed way that he said it), then I can at least understand it (although, I don't know that I can fully accept it). He could be trying to make the argument that we as a society are less focused on morality and more focused on egocentric worldviews and behavior...and as a consequence, we'll have more messed up kids or young adults as a result.

    In other words, his argument could be:

    P1 Objective morality is taught through Christian values.
    P2 Christian values are not being taught or valued in our educational institutions.
    P3 Therefore educational institutions are neglecting values found in objective morality.

    Then of course, an argument for the value of objective morality could be made and why relative morality leads to the encouragement of events such as these.

    But then, that only seemingly holds weight if it is the case that such violence is a fairly recent phenomena, say the last 40-50 years or so, and that I don't know.
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  17. #14
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Outrage belongs with evil people that shoot children, I think the ******* wing of religious movements aren't really worthy of outrage unless they are calling for violence or perpetrating it. Mockery is about the most I think they call for.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  18. #15
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    @Apok: morality IS dynamic and has always been. Always will be. I've yet to see anything remotely resembling a coherent argument to the contrary.

    But getting back to the debate, why aren't more Christians demanding guys like huckabee apologize / step down from positions they hold / etc? They certainly should, but do not. And that's sad.

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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    But getting back to the debate, why aren't more Christians demanding guys like huckabee apologize / step down from positions they hold / etc? They certainly should, but do not. And that's sad.
    Your argument is incredibly vague. You are saying "more" of them should. How many more?

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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    @Apok: morality IS dynamic and has always been. Always will be. I've yet to see anything remotely resembling a coherent argument to the contrary.
    What is "dynamic morality"? That's not a philosophical term. Are you meaning to say that morality is subjective or relative?

    If so, then how can you say it is wrong for Christians to not be outraged by this guy? If it is relative, then it may be wrong to you, but not to them...therefore, you have no leg to stand on in your criticism of them.


    btw...you do realize that morality is prescriptive and not descriptive right?

    ---------- Post added at 07:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 AM ----------

    But getting back to the debate, why aren't more Christians demanding guys like huckabee apologize / step down from positions they hold / etc? They certainly should, but do not. And that's sad.
    See my possible alternative meaning to his argument.
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Probably because this video is virtually unknown to almost everyone in existence. It was published today.

    I wonder if there is any evidence of that being the case (it being virtually unknown, created by an unknown speaker that no one has ever heard of)?...


    Oh yes, there is...here it is right here for you Zhav...


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	gun.JPG 
Views:	32 
Size:	63.3 KB 
ID:	3319

    A mere 304 views!


    I don't see his argument any more well thought out than most of Pat Robertson's arguments. The difference however, is that this guy is a virtual unknown and thus, has very little to if any influence over people.
    The video has 82,000 views now.
    Udabindu yathāpi pokkhare
    Padume vāri yathā na lippati,
    Evaṃ muni no palippati
    Yadidaṃ diṭṭhasutaṃ mutesu vā.

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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    We are getting rather bogged down with the specifics of this guy. One of Pat Roberton's statements about God's judgment being related to some horrific event would work just as well as an example.

    The problem with the premise of this thread is that it forwards that there is an inappropriate amount of outrage amongst Christians over these kinds of comments without specifying what an appropriate, or more to the point reasonable, amount of outrage is.

    I'm sure most mainstream Christians think this guy or Pat Robertson has said some things that are wrong. But who says they have some obligation to raise a huge ruckus over it? Who says a Christian looking at it and saying "That guy is a real jerk" and getting on with their lives isn't the appropriate response especially with all of the other problems in the world?

    Perhaps spending one's energy being concerned about the shooting itself is a better Christian effort than worrying about what some jack-hole says about it.

    So until one can provide a solid supported argument about what a reasonable response overall should be, there is no basis to say that ANYONE's response is lacking.

  23. #20
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    Re: Christians: where is your outrage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soren
    The video has 82,000 views now.
    Are you simply providing an FYI, or trying to make a point. If the latter, please provide the demographic breakdown between Christian and non-Christian viewers and link the relevancy to my post(s) on the topic.
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