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  1. #341
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I did not say he mistakes it for reality, that is not a necessary component to "fantasy world".
    Question to opponent.

    1. If this was not a necessary component, why did you include it in your definition for "fantasy world"?
    2. Do you distinguish between the definitions of "fantasy world" and "subjective"? If so, what are the differences?
    ~Zealous

  2. #342
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    This is where the attempt to understand the other persons position needs to go in both directions. I have spent the last several posts trying to understand your position, and have tried to use the terminology you choose (as long as it wasn't a re-definition of terms) in order to understand it. The debate is now shifting from me trying to understand what you are saying, to now I am engaging your stated position. Now it is your turn to offer ME(bob) the same courtesy that I afforded you. If there is a problem with understanding a term I use, or you feel that my term(as I am using it) is not correct or does not accurately encapsulate an aspect of your position then I welcome your challenge (I certainly challenged some of your usages).
    And conversely, you have to allow me to ask you questions about your position until I fully understand it, just like I let you ask me questions until you got it right. And of course, we cannot debate further until this is cleared up.

    So as I understand your usage of "Lives in a Fantasy World"

    A "Fantasy World" is "something existing solely in the imagination" which I figure is the same thing as "something existing soley in the mind and having no physical presence in the material world".

    And person who "Lives in a Fantasy World" is someone who creates the "Fantasy World" or "Someone who creates something that exists soley within his mind".

    Is that correct?

  3. #343
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    1. If this was not a necessary component, why did you include it in your definition for "fantasy world"?
    Excuse me.. didn’t Mican(joe) do something similar? Will you deny me the same courtesy I extended to him? Or maybe we should just debate by a double standard. … No thanks. Deal with the concept, and if you don’t like the word, defend that another fits better.

    Further, it was in parenthesis so I took it as a common application not a necessary one.
    Even further... there are plenty of moral subjectivist that DO mistake it for reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    2. Do you distinguish between the definitions of "fantasy world" and "subjective"? If so, what are the differences?
    Yes.. and it depends on what definition of “subjective” you use.

    I think that Mican(joe) was using it in it’s first sense.
    existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective ).
    If that is correct, then the distinction is that “subjective” deals with where it resides, while “fantasy world” deals more with the act of thinking it.

    So the thought of a square circle exists in the mind as is thus “subjective”. That you are thinking of a square circle means you are fantasizing about a square circle. If you were to insist that everyone also think of a square circle, then you are demanding that people share your fantasy or “fantasy world”.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And conversely, you have to allow me to ask you questions about your position until I fully understand it, just like I let you ask me questions until you got it right. And of course, we cannot debate further until this is cleared up.
    I think that should have gone without saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So as I understand your usage of "Lives in a Fantasy World"

    A "Fantasy World" is "something existing solely in the imagination" which I figure is the same thing as "something existing soley in the mind and having no physical presence in the material world".
    I’m not sure I agree with the last part. I mean “Star wars” can be said to have a physical presence even though it is a fantasy world. But the world itself doesn’t exist in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And person who "Lives in a Fantasy World" is someone who creates the "Fantasy World" or "Someone who creates something that exists soley within his mind".
    MT post 338
    When I say that you are "living in a fantasy world" I mean that you are choosing to live out the fantasy world that you have created. in your mind (or that exists in your mind).

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Is that correct?
    No, see above and reference my post 338.
    To serve man.

  4. #344
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Excuse me.. didn’t Mican(joe) do something similar? Will you deny me the same courtesy I extended to him? Or maybe we should just debate by a double standard. … No thanks. Deal with the concept, and if you don’t like the word, defend that another fits better.

    Further, it was in parenthesis so I took it as a common application not a necessary one.
    You can call it "splorgenborgen" for all I care. But be specific. If you felt that including the parenthesis was irrelevant then you shouldn't have included it.

    Even further... there are plenty of moral subjectivist that DO mistake it for reality.
    That's contradictory, so I don't see how you could support such a claim without using a completely different definition of "subjective morality" or "reality" then we are currently using in this thread. One cannot claim that morality exists solely within minds while simultaneously claiming that their morality exists as an external reality. Well, I suppose you technically could but the position would be incoherent and not really supportive of subjective morality.

    That you are thinking of a square circle means you are fantasizing about a square circle.
    So are you asserting that "thought" and "fantasy" are the same concept?
    ~Zealous

  5. #345
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    You can call it "splorgenborgen" for all I care. But be specific. If you felt that including the parenthesis was irrelevant then you shouldn't have included it.
    It's called "communication" it is a two way street. If you are more interested in playing a game of "gotcha" instead of trying to understand my position.
    If you are going to try and fuss me for not being clear, or refuse to allow me the same considerations I offered Joe.

    Then take a hike.
    If you want to continue this line, then I don't want to continue this conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    That's contradictory, so I don't see how you could support such a claim without using a completely different definition of "subjective morality" or "reality" then we are currently using in this thread. One cannot claim that morality exists solely within minds while simultaneously claiming that their morality exists as an external reality. Well, I suppose you technically could but the position would be incoherent and not really supportive of subjective morality.
    Yes, there are some subjective moralists who could be described that way.
    My point was only that the word, even with that sense, is not so far fetched.
    But that is not how I am using it, so it is a moot point.


    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    So are you asserting that "thought" and "fantasy" are the same concept?
    No. thet are related though.
    Do you have a problem seeing that "fantasy" is a "thought"?
    To serve man.

  6. #346
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I’m not sure I agree with the last part. I mean “Star wars” can be said to have a physical presence even though it is a fantasy world. But the world itself doesn’t exist in reality.
    What I meant was "Does not exist in material reality." You, I, the chair you are sitting on all exist in material reality. A duty and a fictional story are created in the mind and therefore do not exist in material reality (even though they can be recorded, as in written down or made into a movie but regardless, they were originally created in the mind).

    So a "Fantasy World" is "something that exists soley in the mind does not exist in material reality". Correct?


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    When I say that you are "living in a fantasy world" I mean that you are choosing to live out the fantasy world that you have created. in your mind (or that exists in your mind).
    So you are saying that I "Live out" what I have created in my mind?

    As an example, I have created the "Fantasy World" of "Murder is immoral" (a thought I created in my head) and when I refrain from murdering due to "Fantasy World" of "Murder is immoral", I am taking action based on my "Fantasy World" and therefore am "Living out a Fantasy World"?

    If I have it wrong, then tell me how the scenario of me refraining from murder due to creating "Murder is immoral" in my mind is "Living in a Fantasy World".

  7. #347
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So a "Fantasy World" is "something that exists soley in the mind does not exist in material reality". Correct?
    I was not making the distinction of "material form" like a chair. The Star wars "force" or the Start Trek "prime directive" would not exist in "material form" even if they were written down.
    So if "material reality" is simply a reference to reality, then I agree.
    If it is targeting "material" aspect of reality, then I do not agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So you are saying that I "Live out" what I have created in my mind?
    That you are choosing to live it out, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    As an example, I have created the "Fantasy World" of "Murder is immoral" (a thought I created in my head) and when I refrain from murdering due to "Fantasy World" of "Murder is immoral", I am taking action based on my "Fantasy World" and therefore am "Living out a Fantasy World"?
    Yes. This would be akin to throwing Dice in D&D and refraining from or doing the actions as dictated by D&D rules.

    But that is not where my objections are directed.
    My objection is directed at your "insisting" on it for others.
    To serve man.

  8. #348
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yes. This would be akin to throwing Dice in D&D and refraining from or doing the actions as dictated by D&D rules.

    But that is not where my objections are directed.
    My objection is directed at your "insisting" on it for others.
    I will address that but first I'd like to nail this down.

    There is nothing wrong with me generating the thought that one should not murder in my own mind and then acting on it, correct?

    And therefore there is nothing inherently wrong with "Living in a Fantasy World", correct?

    And if that's not correct, then you need to tell me what is wrong with not murdering someone based on the moral I have created in my mind.

  9. #349
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    There is nothing wrong with me generating the thought that one should not murder in my own mind and then acting on it, correct?
    Not at all. First because that would imply some objective moral code. Second, all actions are the result of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And therefore there is nothing inherently wrong with "Living in a Fantasy World", correct?
    I have not argued that it is "wrong". I have argued that it is unreasonable to insist that others obey YOUR fantasy world.. Which is what you are "insisting" ... (I'll just quote the objections again)...

    MT (Bob) post 338 =
    I object to this because it is unreasonable to insist(as you use it) that anyone obey another persons fantasy
    I object because self delusion is something one should avoid. Delusional people should not be obeyed specifically and especially in relation to their delusion. This because TRUTH is what should be sought.

    To serve man.

  10. #350
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    [I]I object to this because it is unreasonable to insist(as you use it) that anyone obey another persons fantasy
    Support, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I object because self delusion is something one should avoid.
    How am I self delusional?

    Since I admit that what is created in my mind is indeed created in my mind I hold no delusions concerning what I believe.

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  12. #351
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Support, please.


    I feel you did not read my post 338.

    I asked some questions in that posts that would guide my answer to that question.

    MT post 338
    My question to you is. Do you see a flaw in delusions? Do you find actions based on fantasy worlds flawed? Do you find those thing "reasonable" motivations or is your case a "special" one that exempts it from being otherwise unreasonable?


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    How am I self delusional?

    Since I admit that what is created in my mind is indeed created in my mind I hold no delusions concerning what I believe.
    ... again... post 338. MT(Joe)

    That you know your fantasy world is not true, means that you are "self deluded".
    Now that is a tricky one. Here I mean that the Delusion is caused by yourself. Delusion here is used to mean. "1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions:" Emphasis here being the "unrealistic" portion. Finally "Unrealistic" is used "1. interested in, concerned with, or based on what is real" Admittedly there is more to "unrealistic", but that is the sense in which I intend the word delusional".

    I could just say that you are "delusional" instead of "self deluded".
    To serve man.

  13. #352
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I feel you did not read my post 338.

    I asked some questions in that posts that would guide my answer to that question.
    And I asked you to support your objection.

    Asking me questions does not count as support. I'm sure your questions can be fashioned into arguments that may count as support so if you need to put those points out there, then turn them into arguments. Although I'm pretty sure you just did support the gist of your questions in the following argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That you know your fantasy world is not true, means that you are "self deluded".
    Wrong. The definition of "Delusion" is:

    "something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated"

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusion

    Since I CORRECTLY believe that my fantasy is fantasy I am not delusional.

    If I believed my fantasy was reality, then I would be delusional.
    Last edited by mican333; January 29th, 2013 at 02:48 PM.

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  15. #353
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And I asked you to support your objection.

    Asking me questions does not count as support.
    Please re-read what I said.
    "I asked some questions in that posts that would guide my answer to that question."



    What I mean is, the reason I asked the questions is that I can target my support to you.
    I do not intend my questions as support, nor did I say it was. I simply am pointing out that I asked a relevant question that you did not answer. That I would like an answer so that I can offer an effective defense.

    If you are not interested in answering the questions.. let me know.



    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Wrong. The definition of "Delusion" is:

    "something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated"
    I quoted the sense that I was using the word, and sourced it. I also used the word ‘delusional” not “delusion”.


    So you are mistaken on two counts.
    First, in attacking a word I did not use.
    Second, by denying me the ability to tell you specifically how I intend a word from among it’s valid uses. Something which I afforded you.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN

    Since I CORRECTLY believe that my fantasy is fantasy I am not delusional.

    If I believed my fantasy was reality, then I would be delusional.
    Please reference the correct word here, and it’s meaning as I used it.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusional/

    Your objection is based on a Straw-man and so I reject it.
    To serve man.

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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No. thet are related though.
    Do you have a problem seeing that "fantasy" is a "thought"?
    No, but I have a problem seeing a "thought" as a "fantasy". I am not sure how the subjectivist position can be considered to be "fantasizing" about morality. My understanding of the term "fantasy" essentially means imagined external realities. We "fantasize" about things we desire but yet cannot exist in our current reality. We imagine sight, sounds, touch, taste, and smell. Unicorns. Spaceships. Fast cars. Being rich. Etc.

    In my position, morality does not correspond to an external reality, whether real or imagined.

    Perhaps you should better define fantasy and explain why you use "fantasize" rather than "think" when referring to the subjectivist position?
    ~Zealous

  17. #355
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Ah well, time to pause once again to clarify terminology.

    Give me the definition of "deluded" that you want to use. I will probably accept it but I may ask a few questions to clarify what you mean but I'll likely not provide any challenges.

  18. #356
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Ah well, time to pause once again to clarify terminology.

    Give me the definition of "deluded" that you want to use. I will probably accept it but I may ask a few questions to clarify what you mean but I'll likely not provide any challenges.
    Here is my explination taken from post 338
    That you know your fantasy world is not true, means that you are "self deluded".
    Now that is a tricky one. Here I mean that the Delusion is caused by yourself. Delusion here is used to mean. "1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions:" Emphasis here being the "unrealistic" portion. Finally "Unrealistic" is used "1. interested in, concerned with, or based on what is real" Admittedly there is more to "unrealistic", but that is the sense in which I intend the word delusional".

    I could just say that you are "delusional" instead of "self deluded".

    I object because self delusion is something one should avoid. Delusional people should not be obeyed specifically and especially in relation to their delusion. This because TRUTH is what should be sought.

    Is there something here that is not clear? I thought I defined all the terms involved…



    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    No, but I have a problem seeing a "thought" as a "fantasy".
    Not all thought is. Thoughts that are not a reflection of reality are.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    I am not sure how the subjectivist position can be considered to be "fantasizing" about morality.
    As it is used, morality is not a thing about reality, it is a fantasy world of the mind which is then insisted on being obeyed. Saying it is "subjective" is non descriptive and vague. I am being specific, and I think accurate (given the objections so far).

    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    My understanding of the term "fantasy" essentially means imagined external realities. We "fantasize" about things we desire but yet cannot exist in our current reality. We imagine sight, sounds, touch, taste, and smell. Unicorns. Spaceships. Fast cars. Being rich. Etc.
    I don’t think I recognize any of those as necessarily “imagined external realities”. They are simply Imagined and exist only in the mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    In my position, morality does not correspond to an external reality, whether real or imagined.
    I have no intention of re-hashing.
    Mican (joe) offered a statement expressing morality. I’m not changing terms or going over it again from scratch. Do you disagree with his statement in some way? It is that statement that I am directly addressing. If you don't think it reflects your position that is another issue, and I can't take it on ATM.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZD
    Perhaps you should better define fantasy and explain why you use "fantasize" rather than "think" when referring to the subjectivist position?
    That you are thinking something goes without saying. When it becomes a relevant to understanding what is being said, then it becomes relevant to call it “imagined” or point out that one is "fantasizing" about it.

    That seems a very appropriate term (though I only used it to try and explain my official term in my objection) regarding a thought regarding what people OUGHT to do or have a "duty" to do, where it only exists in the mind. Thinking about such a thing is exactly that "fantasizing" about it. There is even an equivalence to "Living in a dream world"... interesting.
    To serve man.

  19. #357
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Here I mean that the Delusion is caused by yourself. Delusion here is used to mean. "1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions:" Emphasis here being the "unrealistic" portion.
    Support or retract that I (Joe) have unrealistic beliefs or opinions.

    And when I ask for support, I am not asking you to ask me questions. I am asking you to provide some kind of statement or argument that supports for your assertion.

  20. #358
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Support or retract that I (Joe) have unrealistic beliefs or opinions.
    Because you have already admitted that what exists in your mind doesn't exist in reality, AKA "illusion" (your word) and is not a reflection of an external reality.

    Realistic was used in this sense.
    interested in, concerned with, or based on what is real

    So the UN of that is NOT based on what is real. As you have called your own position an "illusion" and "not true" (not to be confused with false), it fits the idea of unrealistic. Further, that it exists only in your mind adds to this concept. If it were forwarded as a reflection of an actual duty then it would be a "realistic".

    Notice the idea of "unreal".
    . Not real or substantial; illusory.

    You will notice that a relative of your term "illusion" is there. Hence my calling it "unrealistic". From illusion to unreal, to unrealistic. Or From existing only in the mind, to being untrue (so as to not reflect an external condition) to being unreal, to unrealistic.
    There are more lines than that I'm sure. But the terms and meanings are accurate reflections I think you should agree that much is supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And when I ask for support, I am not asking you to ask me questions. I am asking you to provide some kind of statement or argument that supports for your assertion.
    I know what you are asking. I'm not certain why you refuse to answer my questions. OR why when I ask a question regarding a topic, you are willing to ignore it and skip to the "support" demand, even when I have expressed that I think your answer to my question will effect the kind of support I offer.
    No matter.. onward.
    To serve man.

  21. #359
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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Because you have already admitted that what exists in your mind doesn't exist in reality, AKA "illusion" (your word) and is not a reflection of an external reality.
    And by "external reality" I meant "Physical Reality". Thought are immaterial and therefore do not exist in physical reality so yes, my thoughts do not exist in physical reality.

    So to clarify (and if at some point I incorrectly state your definition, re-state it correctly):

    1. "Unrealistic" means "immaterial" (in the context of the debate)
    2. Since thoughts are "immaterial", they are "unrealistic"
    3. Since I create thoughts (and thoughts are unrealistic), I am "Deluded".
    Last edited by mican333; January 29th, 2013 at 08:42 PM.

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    Re: Was it truly immoral to commit mass murder at a school? Moral relativists challen

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Not all thought is. Thoughts that are not a reflection of reality are.
    So any thoughts that are not representative of something that exists in an objective external reality is ultimately a fantasy?

    Preference towards particular aesthetics (i.e. 'taste')? Fantasy.
    Language? Fantasy.
    Love? Fantasy.
    Rules/laws? Fantasy.

    As it is used, morality is not a thing about reality, it is a fantasy world of the mind which is then insisted on being obeyed. Saying it is "subjective" is non descriptive and vague. I am being specific, and I think accurate (given the objections so far).
    How is it vague? How is "fantasy world" more accurate?

    I don’t think I recognize any of those as necessarily “imagined external realities”. They are simply Imagined and exist only in the mind.
    Yes, they are imagined and exist only within the mind. But they represent thoughts of 'what if' such imaginations could apply to reality. Again, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch.

    That seems a very appropriate term (though I only used it to try and explain my official term in my objection) regarding a thought regarding what people OUGHT to do or have a "duty" to do, where it only exists in the mind. Thinking about such a thing is exactly that "fantasizing" about it. There is even an equivalence to "Living in a dream world"... interesting.
    Both definitions speak of "images". Morality does not concern itself of images. The definitions also use adjectives like "extravagent", "whimsical", "pleasant", and "satisfying", none of which are necessary for a definition of morality. I do not find these definitions of "fantasize" to be particularly accurate of the subjectivist position.
    ~Zealous

 

 
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