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  1. #1
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    Jesus was a magician?

    We all know what strange things Jesus did when he was on earth. He changed water into wine, walked on water and magically let food increase etc etc. There are many such stories in the Bible people still read today.

    Who saw Dynamo? If you never seen him do his magic, then you must please watch it on TV. This guy walked on water, walked off a building, swops cold drink in closed cans, changes pictures of butterflies into live ones and even elivate himself etc etc.

    Here is a link to one of his videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6q1axudGIY&noredirect=1

    So my question is. What if Jesus was a magician just like Dynamo? What if he was just a normal man like Dynamo who had this gift of making people believe in his magic? It is easy for people to not understand how someone is doing these things. That outomatically puts such a person in a higher position. Making them more powerful and even God-like if you want to call it that.

    Maybe people made a normal man to be Jesus because of the magical tricks he could do? Can you convince me otherwise?
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    I can't help but be reminded of this..


    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    Maybe people made a normal man to be Jesus because of the magical tricks he could do? Can you convince me otherwise?
    First of all the magicians today are in fact tricksters. Second we are assuming here that Jesus did in fact do the "tricks" and they appeared as the bible accounts. Now if we ask did Jesus use the same methods or similar methods in order to accomplish his 'tricks' or is it reasonable to think that it could even be done.

    For example, the "walking on water" trick. Now I know some of the modern tricks use glass in the water, or creative camera angles to hide the steps beneath the waters. Generally if you see a guy walking across a pool there is some sort of glass that he is walking on (clear glass is invisible in water). Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus used similar method to walk across a stormy lake? I suggest not. First any modern means of accomplishing such a deception would have been unavailable, second no one has ever replicated what Jesus did in the conditions which he is said to have done them.. further, what magician has ever bid someone to join him?

    -Mindset of followers
    They believed that Jesus was the Messiah, so when he died they all lost faith. One would have to offer a better explanation as to why they lost faith and then suddenly regained it.

    -The greatest Trick of all.
    Jesus is said to have raised himself from the dead. Given that he did appear to do so, it would seem impossible for such a thing to be a parlor trick. Given that it was professionals that killed him, and not some scantly clad assistant.


    So, if you want to be convinced that Jesus was not like one of the modern tricksters I would say this.
    1) Consider what kind of "tricks" Jesus was giving credit for. Blind men receiving sight, the lame walking, and not simply some random guy from the crowd; these people were generally beggars who were known by all in the crowd. Are they really comparable with anything you have seen today?
    2) Many of the "tricks" were done in secret, and those whom it was performed on were told not to share the information. (as opposed to the modern day guys doing it specifically for recognition).
    3) Technology based. Many of the modern tricks rely on modern inventions, such as wire, mirrors, controlled environments, and all of the tricks are for sale. Is it reasonable to think that any of those were available to Jesus?
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    First of all the magicians today are in fact tricksters. Second we are assuming here that Jesus did in fact do the "tricks" and they appeared as the bible accounts. Now if we ask did Jesus use the same methods or similar methods in order to accomplish his 'tricks' or is it reasonable to think that it could even be done.
    Obviously there is no certainty to this...

    For example, the "walking on water" trick. Now I know some of the modern tricks use glass in the water, or creative camera angles to hide the steps beneath the waters. Generally if you see a guy walking across a pool there is some sort of glass that he is walking on (clear glass is invisible in water). Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus used similar method to walk across a stormy lake? I suggest not. First any modern means of accomplishing such a deception would have been unavailable, second no one has ever replicated what Jesus did in the conditions which he is said to have done them.. further, what magician has ever bid someone to join him?
    None that I know of. Still, how do we know for sure that Jesus didn't use some kind of trick which made other people to believe he is actually doing it? How certain can we be that there was no way in that time to actually trick someone. It might not have been glass, but could have been somethinng else.

    -Mindset of followers
    They believed that Jesus was the Messiah, so when he died they all lost faith. One would have to offer a better explanation as to why they lost faith and then suddenly regained it.
    Okay...not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this statement?

    -The greatest Trick of all.
    Jesus is said to have raised himself from the dead. Given that he did appear to do so, it would seem impossible for such a thing to be a parlor trick. Given that it was professionals that killed him, and not some scantly clad assistant.
    How did they test during that time whether someone is in fact dead or not? We saw in medical history quite a number of people who are able to manipulate their own heart beats or magically raise back from the dead. Can we with 100% certainty say Jesus was dead to begin with?


    So, if you want to be convinced that Jesus was not like one of the modern tricksters I would say this.
    1) Consider what kind of "tricks" Jesus was giving credit for. Blind men receiving sight, the lame walking, and not simply some random guy from the crowd; these people were generally beggars who were known by all in the crowd. Are they really comparable with anything you have seen today?
    2) Many of the "tricks" were done in secret, and those whom it was performed on were told not to share the information. (as opposed to the modern day guys doing it specifically for recognition).
    3) Technology based. Many of the modern tricks rely on modern inventions, such as wire, mirrors, controlled environments, and all of the tricks are for sale. Is it reasonable to think that any of those were available to Jesus?
    1. Healing the sick is one trick I didn't see from any magician yet, but that does not make the healing Jesus did to be unexplained. We still witness today how people magically get healed when they had no hope to live.
    2. Turning water into wine in front of many people is hardly someone who is trying to keep what they do secretive, don't you agree?
    3. It is reasonable to think modern gadgets and technology was not available. But it is also reasonable to believe that there might have been something else he used during that time which we are simply unaware of, don't you think?
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Aspoestertjie"[/quote
    None that I know of. Still, how do we know for sure that Jesus didn't use some kind of trick which made other people to believe he is actually doing it? How certain can we be that there was no way in that time to actually trick someone. It might not have been glass, but could have been somethinng else.
    Matthew states that Jesus calmed a storm while He was walking on water. It is highly unlikely that such feats could be done via "magic".

    How did they test during that time whether someone is in fact dead or not? We saw in medical history quite a number of people who are able to manipulate their own heart beats or magically raise back from the dead. Can we with 100% certainty say Jesus was dead to begin with?
    Jesus was most assuredly dead.

    1. He had been beaten to a pulp and forced to carry a heavy wooden stake prior to even being nailed to the cross.

    2. Mark reports that when Joseph of Arimathea went to ask Pilate for the body of Christ, Pilate was stunned that Jesus had died so quickly. Pilate then asked one of the guards to confirm that Jesus was dead:

    And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the Council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate was surprised to hear that he should have already died. And summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead. And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the corpse to Joseph. --Mark 15:42-45

    The guard confirmed that Jesus had died. Remember also that these are Roman guards and have no reason to lie to their superior.

    3. John records that Jesus had also been pierced on His side by the Roman guards:

    Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. --John 19:31-34

    4. Jesus was buried in a tomb according to Jewish custom, and the tomb was fitted with a heavy stone door. He was there for three days. If He was still alive at this point, three days without food or water would have finished the job.

    Turning water into wine in front of many people is hardly someone who is trying to keep what they do secretive, don't you agree?
    This was not done as a stunt nor "performed" in front of many people:

    On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."
    Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water." And they filled them up to the brim. And he said to them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast." So they took it. When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now." This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him. --John 2:1-11

  5. #5
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    Obviously there is no certainty to this...
    What do you mean? You are aware that the magician purchase their tricks. That they commonly expose the mechanics of the "tricks" and get in trouble for it.
    What reason should we think the are "real"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    Still, how do we know for sure that Jesus didn't use some kind of trick which made other people to believe he is actually doing it? How certain can we be that there was no way in that time to actually trick someone. It might not have been glass, but could have been somethinng else.
    First of all, do we know it could have been something else of a natural nature?
    It is not simply the case that we lack the imagination to conceive of how one could be deceived into believing a person was walking on stormy sea water and call someone else out. It is that it is not reasonable to think it can be done through natural means. If you believe that it was, you have greater faith than I.


    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    Okay...not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this statement?
    The point of it was to say that it isn't enough to simply posit that Jesus was a magician. That theory must also
    have explanatory power over his followers actions. My point is that it does not. Because the idea of Jesus as a magician is contradictory to what the disciples believed, and it is not a sufficient reason for them to believ in Jesus after his actual death.

    It is also not reasonable to think that Jesus' crucifixion was a "trick".

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    How did they test during that time whether someone is in fact dead or not? We saw in medical history quite a number of people who are able to manipulate their own heart beats or magically raise back from the dead. Can we with 100% certainty say Jesus was dead to begin with?
    Given the beating, the cross and the stabbing, it is not reasonable to think that Jesus survived.
    It is one thing to happen upon someone laying still and not be able to tell if they are alive or not.
    It is another to beat them with the cat of 9 tails (which killed many) hang them on a cross (which kills) and stab them in the heart (which kills).
    And then observe them not moving/breathing.

    If it was the case that Jesus did somehow naturally survive, he would not have lived long after, and he would not have been in any sort of physical condition from which to "inspire".

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    1. Healing the sick is one trick I didn't see from any magician yet, but that does not make the healing Jesus did to be unexplained. We still witness today how people magically get healed when they had no hope to live.
    Well the thing you are trying to support is that Jesus is a magician and we should see him as we do modern magicians.
    That his "tricks" are fundamentally different from modern magicians is evidence against such a conclusion.
    That others are healed, or even raised from the dead, is not support for the "magician" theory. If Jesus did represent a spiritual power, then we should expect similar acts to occur. The difference is that of reality of the situation. If a person is actually healed of leprosy or actually brought back from the dead, that is specifically NOT what magicians do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    2. Turning water into wine in front of many people is hardly someone who is trying to keep what they do secretive, don't you agree?
    Read the story, he was reluctant, and the people in the party didn't know where it came from.. only the servants.

    Quote Originally Posted by ASPO
    3. It is reasonable to think modern gadgets and technology was not available. But it is also reasonable to believe that there might have been something else he used during that time which we are simply unaware of, don't you think?
    Absolutely, specifically the power of God.

    This is the deal, if Jesus was a "magician" and was "tricking everyone" then we should be very interested in studying him, because he "defeated" death.

    Don't you find that interesting? If a man today came and said he had conquered death, and demonstrated it in a like manner to Christ, and "raised himself" up after 3 days. Wouldn't that be worthy of learning by what power he did it?
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    So my question is. What if Jesus was a magician just like Dynamo? What if he was just a normal man like Dynamo who had this gift of making people believe in his magic? It is easy for people to not understand how someone is doing these things. That outomatically puts such a person in a higher position. Making them more powerful and even God-like if you want to call it that.

    Maybe people made a normal man to be Jesus because of the magical tricks he could do? Can you convince me otherwise?
    It would be odd if Jesus were just a magician given a few things. He routinely told people he was God, which was considered blasphemous (why would a magician risk death to say that?) He never charged money for the feats he performed (this in direct opposition to others like Simon the sorcerer, or Balaam, who actually sought financial gain for their abilities). Then we have the major issue:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindtrap
    Given the beating, the cross and the stabbing, it is not reasonable to think that Jesus survived.
    It is one thing to happen upon someone laying still and not be able to tell if they are alive or not.
    It is another to beat them with the cat of 9 tails (which killed many) hang them on a cross (which kills) and stab them in the heart (which kills).
    And then observe them not moving/breathing.
    Add to that fact that some details about the tomb itself: It was sealed from the outside, and had an armed guard posted whose express purpose was to prevent people from stealing the body away.

    Then you've got the added detail that the guard himself claimed the body had disappeared and was paid to lie about it. Now, we COULD say that "well Houdini used to climb inside a box and escape miraculously, or Criss Angel has been seen getting put in a box only to appear later somewhere else outside the box!" But then we're ultimately having to do a few things: Ignore what Jesus said about himself and place our faith in everything he did being faked.

    The faith aspect in his faking everything becomes all the more complicated and less viable when you consider that the people brought to him were people KNOWN for YEARS to be suffering from paralysis, blindness, etc. Lazarus' own sisters were crying and saying that he'd died, and he'd been dead for a while before Jesus arrived. A boy is brought to him suffering from being mute (his father testifies to that), the list goes on and on. These weren't people planted (a standard feat for magicians) and they weren't faking problems (something occasionally seen from con-artists at revivals). These were established members of the communities he visited; people KNEW the people coming to Jesus for help.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    What if Jesus was a magician just like Dynamo? What if he was just a normal man like Dynamo who had this gift of making people believe in his magic? It is easy for people to not understand how someone is doing these things.
    I would not assume that the manipulation of energy and nature is equal to the control of energy and nature.

    Magicians are masters of the art energy manipulation and shock and awe. An englightened divine mind is a master of the control of energy not for the sole purpose of temporal human shock and awe, but ultimately for the purpose of human transformation.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    I think that the details given in the bible for Jesus's activities certainly minimize the argument for Jesus as a trickster. I think that a good magician could figure out how to reproduce many of these tricks but some of them may require technology not available in Jesus's day. Nor I think do we have a record of magicians (of the modern sort) flourishing around that time. Of course tales of miracle workers of that age could have been tricksters but I don't know what research has been done on that.

    I did want to add that there is a very easy illusion for walking on water (though it does not work for the details used in the bible). You simply need a natural mirage which uses a reflection of the sky to appear to be water. Then you walk across it. The view needs to be at a decent distance and the water would appear to be mostly calm. You could work in a boat without much trouble but it would not work for anyone in the boat.

    My own opinion is that the bible stories of miracles are most likely legends built from accounts of events that are less supernatural or invented as testaments to an early religion to win over converts.
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    I concede.

    I read through all of your replies and to be honest, there is no way for me to really proof he was a magician. Fact remains that we still can't explain the things that happened during that time and it is difficult to wrap your mind around it since there are magicians today that can do some of the things Jesus did. The healing of the ill - I would think if we knew more about these accounts there might be a good explanation of how Jesus did it. I think Sigfried captured it quite well.

    Mr. Hyde's question if a magician will really risk that was quite a good point. However, we all know what crazy things some people can do and say in todays time...
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspoestertjie View Post
    I concede.

    I read through all of your replies and to be honest, there is no way for me to really proof he was a magician. Fact remains that we still can't explain the things that happened during that time and it is difficult to wrap your mind around it since there are magicians today that can do some of the things Jesus did. The healing of the ill - I would think if we knew more about these accounts there might be a good explanation of how Jesus did it. I think Sigfried captured it quite well.

    Mr. Hyde's question if a magician will really risk that was quite a good point. However, we all know what crazy things some people can do and say in todays time...
    Ha ha. What a funny thread. I just joined but I do like to debate religion. Though this seems like a fun thread than a serious one. That said, I'm bored.

    But why did you give up so easily? Let me see if I can pick up where you left off. It is easy to show that Jesus was a magician because magicians are also known to have assistants and shills. So why couldn't all the 'witnesses' to all the miracles just be part of the act? It's not as if there were any photographic or video evidence of walking on water anyway (which seems to be easily faked too).

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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim
    It is easy to show that Jesus was a magician because magicians are also known to have assistants and shills. So why couldn't all the 'witnesses' to all the miracles just be part of the act? It's not as if there were any photographic or video evidence of walking on water anyway (which seems to be easily faked too).
    Could you please demonstrate how this idea can be inferred from the NT manuscripts?

    All of this "creative thinking" is nice and all, but I'd wager that it is based upon ignorance of the NT manuscripts and of Christian theology in general.

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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    But why did you give up so easily? Let me see if I can pick up where you left off. It is easy to show that Jesus was a magician because magicians are also known to have assistants and shills. So why couldn't all the 'witnesses' to all the miracles just be part of the act? It's not as if there were any photographic or video evidence of walking on water anyway (which seems to be easily faked too).
    Shills also tend not to die unpleasant deaths defending the magician's trick, as is the case for virtually all of the Apostles.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Ha ha. What a funny thread. I just joined but I do like to debate religion. Though this seems like a fun thread than a serious one. That said, I'm bored.

    But why did you give up so easily? Let me see if I can pick up where you left off. It is easy to show that Jesus was a magician because magicians are also known to have assistants and shills. So why couldn't all the 'witnesses' to all the miracles just be part of the act? It's not as if there were any photographic or video evidence of walking on water anyway (which seems to be easily faked too).
    Which is it though, would you suggest he was a magician, or that everyone lied about seeing miracles? Because if all the witnesses were in on the act, then there's no point in him doing any tricks to begin with. Which means these guys were the most devoted assistants ever considering the beatings, arrests, and deaths that occurred BECAUSE of their upholding the act. Not to mention the additional problem of suggesting that the witnesses also shared in the same tricks (problematic for Paul since he never met Jesus during his ministry). Also the added problem of Peter's escape from prison, which wasn't a trick Jesus would've/could've taught him (seeing as how he was arrested and never escaped).

    Now, you could suggest that all the people claiming to be party to those events were lying, but in doing so, you're stretching it pretty far and your position starts to look like someone sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "Nannananananah! I can't hear you!"
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    I do find it amusing that some are denying Jesus could have been a "magician" while arguing that he was a literal practitioner of magic.

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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freund View Post
    Could you please demonstrate how this idea can be inferred from the NT manuscripts?

    All of this "creative thinking" is nice and all, but I'd wager that it is based upon ignorance of the NT manuscripts and of Christian theology in general.
    Well, the apostles seem to provide good cover for any and all things made up, especially the ones that wrote or whose testament it is in the bible. But I concede to your point, I don't have a Scriptural evidence, just a huge skepticism on some of the stranger claims to be true.

    ---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Shills also tend not to die unpleasant deaths defending the magician's trick, as is the case for virtually all of the Apostles.
    True, but given how ruthless people were back then, it's not an unusual thing to happen. And if then got caught out or tried to carry on the 'scam' after Jesus was killed then it is even more consistent.

    ---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Which is it though, would you suggest he was a magician, or that everyone lied about seeing miracles? Because if all the witnesses were in on the act, then there's no point in him doing any tricks to begin with. Which means these guys were the most devoted assistants ever considering the beatings, arrests, and deaths that occurred BECAUSE of their upholding the act. Not to mention the additional problem of suggesting that the witnesses also shared in the same tricks (problematic for Paul since he never met Jesus during his ministry). Also the added problem of Peter's escape from prison, which wasn't a trick Jesus would've/could've taught him (seeing as how he was arrested and never escaped).
    I guess it depends on the act. The walking on water was only witnessed by the apostles so that's something that could have been made up. That said, it seems to be the easiest to prove and since it only happened once it could well have not happened.

    Also, I wouldn't call it an 'act' per se; he wasn't a performing magician for claps and giggles. I would liken Jesus to the fakirs, holy men who are able to perform amazing acts. To this day, well, to those without internet access, Indian fakirs still "levitate" much to the respect of the locals. So I imagine Jesus & his crew would do something similar.

    I also wouldn't say they were tricking people for financial game; maybe they truly believed that Jesus was the son of God but since he was actually human then he not no powers to show otherwise. They lied to give Jesus more credibility.

    On Peter's escape who knows. I'm defending the magician claim based on the idea that Jesus used trickery, misdirection and lies to boost the idea he had supernatural powers; not that he was two-bit entertainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Now, you could suggest that all the people claiming to be party to those events were lying, but in doing so, you're stretching it pretty far and your position starts to look like someone sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "Nannananananah! I can't hear you!"
    Which events specifically do you have in mind?

    ---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shrike View Post
    I do find it amusing that some are denying Jesus could have been a "magician" while arguing that he was a literal practitioner of magic.
    LOL! I think it is offensive to call supernatural powers mere magic and trickery. There's a difference though (at least for this thread). One is derived from a deity and the other is fakery.

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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim
    Well, the apostles seem to provide good cover for any and all things made up, especially the ones that wrote or whose testament it is in the bible. But I concede to your point, I don't have a Scriptural evidence, just a huge skepticism on some of the stranger claims to be true.
    I think you would find that reading and studying the New Testament manuscripts to be quite beneficial. It doesn't really make much sense to criticize something if you haven't read or studied it yourself, does it?

  18. #17
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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    True, but given how ruthless people were back then, it's not an unusual thing to happen. And if then got caught out or tried to carry on the 'scam' after Jesus was killed then it is even more consistent.
    What isn't an unusual thing to happen? Painful execution?

    Given that the majority of the Apostles that were executed for preaching that Jesus was the Messiah were also offered a chance to recant and not be executed, but didn't, how does that correspond to your theory?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Given that the majority of the Apostles were executed for preaching that Jesus was the Messiah were also offered a chance to recant and not be executed, but didn't, how does that correspond to your theory?
    Challenge to support a claim.Please show that the apostles were executed for the reason you claim.

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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    Challenge to support a claim.Please show that the apostles were executed for the reason you claim.
    Lets start with the two we know that were not killed in that manner.

    John died naturally of old age.

    Judas Iscariot of course hung himself after Jesus Christ's execution.


    The rest were martyred:

    Matthew was martyred in Ethopia, though it is unclear whether it was an axe or a sword.

    Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, where he was dragged through the streets.

    Luke
    was hanged in Greece by Greek priests.

    Peter
    ,was famously crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross.

    James the Just (or James the Lesser), the brother of Jesus, was thrown from the Temple mount after refusing to deny his faith. His skull was crushed for good measure.

    Jame, son of Zebedee, was killed by King Herod.

    Bartholomew, was flayed and beheaded for preaching by the King of Armedia

    Thomas was stabbed with a spear during preaching in India. (Neill, Stephen (2004). A History of Christianity in India: The Beginnings to AD 1707. Cambridge University Press. pp. 29.)

    Jude, another brother of Jesus, was beheaded with an axe.

    Matthias, was sentenced to death by the Sanhedrin and stoned for blasphemy.

    Barnabas was stoned to death at Salamis. (Barnabas." Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005)

    Paul was executed by Emperor Nero for being a Christian by beheading.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Jesus was a magician?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Lets start with the two we know that were not killed in that manner.

    John died naturally of old age.

    Judas Iscariot of course hung himself after Jesus Christ's execution.


    The rest were martyred:

    Matthew was martyred in Ethopia, though it is unclear whether it was an axe or a sword.

    Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, where he was dragged through the streets.

    Luke
    was hanged in Greece by Greek priests.

    Peter
    ,was famously crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross.

    James the Just (or James the Lesser), the brother of Jesus, was thrown from the Temple mount after refusing to deny his faith. His skull was crushed for good measure.

    Jame, son of Zebedee, was killed by King Herod.

    Bartholomew, was flayed and beheaded for preaching by the King of Armedia

    Thomas was stabbed with a spear during preaching in India. (Neill, Stephen (2004). A History of Christianity in India: The Beginnings to AD 1707. Cambridge University Press. pp. 29.)

    Jude, another brother of Jesus, was beheaded with an axe.

    Matthias, was sentenced to death by the Sanhedrin and stoned for blasphemy.

    Barnabas was stoned to death at Salamis. (Barnabas." Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005)

    Paul was executed by Emperor Nero for being a Christian by beheading.
    If you cannot answer the challenge I think you have to withdraw the claim; although honestly I'm not sure what the procedure is on this board.

 

 
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