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Thread: Dear Apok...

  1. #1
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    Dear Apok...

    Dear Apok, my brother in Christ,

    I much admire your grasp of the rules of logic and your reasoning abilities, and am most grateful for this site which, I believe, you subsidise. It is a wholly commendable endeavour, as are many other charitable endeavours and social enterprises.

    But, as a fellow Christian, I do wonder whether logic and reasoning may have displaced a passion for truth - for Jesus, actually, since He is THE TRUTH.

    Dare I say it, but I do think you may have become somewhat legalistic and dry in your responses. From my perspective, as an occasional visitor/contributor, it seems to me that your contributions are more about "winning" an argument and/or flattening others with superior knowledge, than ministering truth in love.


    Yours in Jesus

    Ruth
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  2. #2
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    Re: Dear Apok...

    Moved to site feedback forum as this was not a debate post/topic....

    I would agree with you that over the past 6-9 months my responses may have been 'drier' than usual. I believe the reason for that is that debate doesn't mean to me what it once was. I do not enjoy debating as I once did. And I do not get out of it, what I once did. I've mentioned this in the Christian private forum months ago and explained that I may be starting a new, all-Christian community (details withheld at this time as it is not pertinent to this thread - but you can read about it in the private forum if you have access - if you don't, then simply request access to the forum from your usercp). I've admitted in that thread that I believe debating the tired old arguments have "aged" me into a disgruntled interlocutor and it leaves me with more frustration than joy (which never used to be the case).

    But do not confuse the cause of that lack of enthusiasm with particular positions (such as not being a Creationist, of which, I've not been one for years, and of which, you have recently expressed "concern"). Nor confuse it with replacing faith with reason (or vice versa). I believe in "reasonable faith." A faith that can be justified through reason. I believe that God called on us to use our minds (not just our hearts; in fact in the OT and NT times, the reference to the heart was also associated with the mind, thinking, reasoning, etc...).

    Lastly, I've never used ODN to "minister" to others...that has never been its purpose. I've held to the challenge of defending the faith as well as having my own ideas challenged and strengthened, as well as presenting an arena where ideas of any sort can be pitted against another, and done in a civil, rational manner. My challenges lately have had much to do with what I believe to be the lack of proper reasoning and initial investigation of an issue by my fellow interlocutors. When that occurs, it feels as if the discussion is fruitless (as I've been doing this long enough to recognize the production value of a particular discussion through both its topic and tone).

    In short, you are right...but perhaps not for the reasons you think.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; January 9th, 2013 at 10:00 AM.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  3. #3
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    Re: Dear Apok...

    I think it is quite normal to get tired of the same debates over and over again.
    >>]Aspoestertjie[<<

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  4. #4
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    Re: Dear Apok...

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Dear Apok, my brother in Christ,

    I much admire your grasp of the rules of logic and your reasoning abilities, and am most grateful for this site which, I believe, you subsidise. It is a wholly commendable endeavour, as are many other charitable endeavours and social enterprises.

    But, as a fellow Christian, I do wonder whether logic and reasoning may have displaced a passion for truth - for Jesus, actually, since He is THE TRUTH.

    Dare I say it, but I do think you may have become somewhat legalistic and dry in your responses. From my perspective, as an occasional visitor/contributor, it seems to me that your contributions are more about "winning" an argument and/or flattening others with superior knowledge, than ministering truth in love.


    Yours in Jesus

    Ruth
    It's a debate website. Not a christian missionary site. Jesus is THE TRUTH, as much any other THE TRUTHs that Ive ever come across. the truth is a matter of taste and opinion. Facts are much more useful for debating with.

  5. #5
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    Re: Dear Apok...

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested View Post
    Dear Apok, my brother in Christ,

    I much admire your grasp of the rules of logic and your reasoning abilities, and am most grateful for this site which, I believe, you subsidise. It is a wholly commendable endeavour, as are many other charitable endeavours and social enterprises.

    But, as a fellow Christian, I do wonder whether logic and reasoning may have displaced a passion for truth - for Jesus, actually, since He is THE TRUTH.

    Dare I say it, but I do think you may have become somewhat legalistic and dry in your responses. From my perspective, as an occasional visitor/contributor, it seems to me that your contributions are more about "winning" an argument and/or flattening others with superior knowledge, than ministering truth in love.


    Yours in Jesus

    Ruth
    Normally, I wouldn't respond to this since it was aimed solely at another member, but you originally published this on a debating subforum, so I can hardly imagine that you expected this to be left uncommented on by other people.


    Disinterested, I would like you to stop for a moment and think about what you just said. I mean really, really think about what you just said. You have, since you began on here (I apologize if this is considered "calling out" a member, but given the thread title I don't think it's precisely out of line), seemed to have a profound problem with "logic" and rational argumentation. To be honest, I really find it completely baffling that someone could sign themselves up for a forum that was clearly marked as a "debating forum" --whose slogan is, no less, "The Forge of Reason" and before that "The Battleground of Truth"-- and then have the audacity to both publicly and privately bemoan why there's so much emphasis on "logical thinking" and "rational discourse". Seriously, why is this so bewildering to you that these characteristics are emphasized on a debating forum? It's not exactly a secret that Apok and I have, publicly, had a less than congenial past, but if there's one thing that I could never deny Apok --indeed, I would say it's something that I quite respect about him-- it is that he has always been very clear that there ought to be a rational and intellectual discourse between believers and non-believers.

    Because if there's one thing that the Atheist and Christian dialogue needs less of, it's less dogmatic sophistry and one-sided pandering. And if there's one thing that humanity needs less of, it's people complaining about logical thinking and instead replacing it with emotive, sentimental, tradition-based assertions. Moreover, this is a debate site. This is the place --by definition-- where rational discourse, logical thinking, and evidence-based assertions are the entire point of coming and participating. This isn't a place where we sit around and try to convince each other that we are correct on a given issue because we have superior qualities as human beings, or because it makes us better people, or because we think our beliefs are good for society. The purpose of a debating website is, and always has been, something very simple: A place where people argue over what the truth is in the most objective (Not necessarily dispassionate), logical, analytical, and evidence based way. The people who were on the top ten with highest rep didn't get there because they simply persuaded other people of their beliefs, but because they were capable of arguing with other forum members in an intellectual, objective, evidence-based, and rational way.


    Now, I understand that you're also stating that he should focus his efforts as a Christian at trying to get people to convert and shouldn't be focused on "winning", but frankly if more theists focused on intellectual debates and "winning" --where "winning" means providing an evidence-based, cogent arguments-- I think the statistics on ODN's conversion rate wouldn't be so ridiculously skewed towards theist-to-atheist (Which is, by the way, some where in the range of 10 or so, and the number of atheists to Christians is either 0 or 1, depending on how charitable you're feeling because the conversation had nothing to do with this forum).


    But more to the point, I think this is something that should be handled in a PM. Cheers.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

 

 

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