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  1. #1
    jihoon49
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    Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Have you ever heard of the saying, "America sucks because you suck"? It is definitely true thanks to the "very good" service our government has provided us with its "free" education. You should understand that I am being sarcastic here. Our U.S. government may say that they are providing the best education for the students; but in truth, they are providing the worst education possible.

    What is public education? The most commonly held view of public education is, without doubt, the least accurate, in that it tells us very little about the realities of public education. It is based on a collection of myths which most Americans are quite reluctant to give up.

    The first myth is that public education is a great democratic institution fundamental to America's prosperity and well-being. The second myth is that public education is necessary as the great equalizer in our society, bringing together children from different ethnic, social, racial, and religious groups and combining them into homogenized "Americans" which we are all supposed to want to be. The third myth is that it provides the best possible education because we are the best possible country spending the most possible money. The fourth myth is that our society cannot survive without it- that is, public education and all the people who run it.

    These myths are so hard to discard because it requires discarding an even greater myth that props up the whole edifice: that all men are equal and that government, as the great equalizer, is the most benevolent dispenser of human goodness, generosity, and justice on earth. The framers of the Declaration of Independence did not mean "created equal" in the egalitarian sense it is used today. Egalitarianism leads to monotonous sameness, in which individuality, free choice, and the expression of individual values are suppressed for a supposed higher value of collective sameness. What they meant was that everyone should have the maximum freedom and opportunity to lead his or her life according to that individual's values. But the current trend in public education is to eradicate or deny the existence of differences, particularly sexual, racial, and religious differences, to a point that such confusion that individual identity becomes more and more difficult for youngsters to define, let alone achieve. The only way an individual can achieve a sense of identity today in public education is to rebel against it. And perhaps this is one of the reasons for the steadily increasing destruction of school property by American students.

    By brainwashing the students with such ideas, the government uses them for their own advantage. Why the government is doing such thing is because of evil, corrupted government officials who has also been brainwashed by public education, which gains its foundation from communist ideas and propaganda.
    The education in public schools is corrupting the minds of many students, who may become the leaders of the next generation; thus America has no choice but to fall into corruption with its corrupt leaders.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by jihoon49; February 24th, 2013 at 06:08 AM.

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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    This a rambling opinion/ideological piece, do you have an actual argument?

    All I can gather from this is you think that vast inequality's don't exist in our society, and that everything trying to create equal opportunity, i.e. schools, is a communist government conspiracy.

    No haven't heard that before... (right wing talk radio here we go again...lol)

    What is your evidence to support your rather vague argument? I don't mean to insult you but I think you would benefit from actually looking up Marx and communism, because you seen confused about what it actually is. In fact most Americans don't really know what it is, its like a magical fairy monster that is the problem behind everything. It can be argued that schools are actually a tool of the market, externalizing education costs (which companies need to create wealth) on the people instead of it cutting into corporate profits.
    HINT: This is a trick question

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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    I think you set up a bunch of straw man positions that few if anyone actually holds and then proceed to tear them down in rhetoric without a shred of evidence or support for your position. That is an editorial and not a debate position.

    I will give you props for writing well in terms of language. Easy to read and well punctuated. But the content is pretty thin.

    Let me say something about Egalitarianism. There are basic categories. The older one which is a reaction to elitism of nobility and the like, and the newer one that is more what you are after. Classic egalitarianism speaks to intrinsic equality as a moral value. That is to say that just because you have noble blood doesn't make you a better human being than anyone else. Just because you are a boss doesn't mean you can treat anyone below you like crap as a human being. It doesn't say that we all deserve equal luxuries or the like. Those are the results of your deeds and your deeds can and will set you apart. The take you seem to attack is the notion we should all have equal material status no matter our efforts.

    I'm a strong supporter of the former and a critic of the latter.

    ---

    The truth of public education is that education is a good thing. Education is what empowers us to be better people. The revolution of public education was that it made that most valuable asset available to rich and poor alike. Prior to public education a good many Americans had no education. They could well have been potential leaders of industry or spiritual guides but without the benefit of the knowledge of civilization, none of that is much likely to happen. By increasing the amount of education in the US, we greatly increased our economic and instinctual power and thus our wealth and security.

    Anyone who thinks we need less education is to my mind a great fool. That said, I can understand critiques of our education system or the means by which we organize it. However the things you think people say about it, I've never actually heard anyone in my 40 years of life claim. It sounds more like ******** you made up to support your own paranoid world view. People thing public education provides everyone with opportunity to grow and develop, not a guarantee they have equal lives after school. They see it not as an equalizer that mixes people together but as an advantage made available to all citizens. I've never seen anyone claim we have the best education, in fact its widely thought our schools are currently second rate compared to those of many other nations. I've never seen anyone claim we can't survive without education. But I think its pretty obvious that if our public were largely ignorant and stupid that this would be a disadvantage against nations with smart well educated populations.
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by jihoon49 View Post
    The education in public schools is corrupting the minds of many students, who may become the leaders of the next generation; thus America has no choice but to fall into corruption with its corrupt leaders.
    Welcome to ODN Jihoon.

    Well, since you believe that America has no choice but to fall into corruption with its corrupt leaders (that's a rather big claim, btw), then it would seem to me that, you too, have become a victim and fallen prey to your OP.

    Bear in mind that America has had many ups and downs (bumps in the road), i.e., falls and rises in its historical trajectory.

    Though your OP on public education makes it sound like America will fall into corruption because of its public education, falling down in not our problem. In fact, falling down has silver linings. When and if that happens, the clear and present danger will be if, as a nation, we choose not to get up again. The clear and present danger is if we ignore the lessons from our falls, if and when we fall. The clear and present danger is the thinking process behind your OP "America has no choice but to fall." If that becomes the accepted premise (thinking) by the majority, it will most likely come to pass (whether it's valid or invalid.)

    As far as public education, personally, I'm not excited about it and neither are those who have become leaders and educators who have given rise to alternatives. There is always a choice Jihoon.
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  5. #5
    jihoon49
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    I'm sorry for such confusion. Then what do you think about public education? IS there anything that you think is wrong about public education; or if you believe that it is a great today, why do you believe so?

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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by jihoon49 View Post
    Then what do you think about public education? IS there anything that you think is wrong about public education; or if you believe that it is a great today, why do you believe so?
    That's more a discussion topic that debate but I'll take a quick stab at it.

    I think public education is a good idea in general principle. I think education is incredibly valuable, and I think making it available to any and all is good for any society.

    There are a raft of problems with our current public education system, and honestly, I'd expect there always would be. Most things in life are a process of continuous efforts to make improvements, and as time changes education needs to change along with it. So the presence of problems does not mean I think it should be abandoned. Now its been 20+ years since I was in a public school, so my perspective is probably out of date to a degree. Also I know that not all public schools are all that much the same. Having attended many the quality varies pretty wildly.

    So what do I think is wrong with them?

    My critiques are kind of subtle ones.

    Mostly, I think there is too much "tradition" and too few people making decisions. I think our education could do with more individuality and more flexibility to allow teachers to be themselves and to let kids better explore new areas of knowledge. There are sacred cows of education that we just can't seem to break free from or take the best elements of and leave the worst behind. The blame for this goes all over. For starters the people making the key decisions haven't actually been in school for many decades, and that often includes parents. You also have the teachers unions, who not only make education decisions based on protecting their financial interests, but also simply hold to certain ideological traditions that in some cases just aren't good for teaching. The public nature of schools exacerbates these problems due to the creation of large bureaucracies and one size fits all solutions.

    Bad apples are another problem. And bad here is not a value judgement, just a question of effect. In a school of kids it doesn't take many trouble makers to bring down the overall level of education for everyone. When I was in grade school one or two bullies terrorized a good number of kids, greatly distracting from learning. In 3rd great going to school was a fear filled experience for me and recess was like a prison yard. In the classrooom it wasn't much better with certain kids disrupting class and demanding teacher attention constantly. And because our schools are public, we can't just eject problem kids that easily. Nor in a way do we want to. We want everyone to get a shot. And often the kids are that way because their parents treat them like **** or simply don't parent enough to teach them to be decent people. So do you just abandon a kid that really could just use extra help? Its a tough challenge. Now it seems from what I read this is better now. There are more separate schools where challenged kids both get extra attention and don't so much get in the way of others. But on the whole, public education makes this a more pressing problem than if it were not public.

    Liberal education. I think the liberal education model that so many of our schools are still based on has limited use. I think in this day and age there are so many topics and so many areas of specialization, that what was once "well rounded" is now just archaic and pedantic. Reading and writing remain a core skill. And notions of logic and reasoning are essential as well. Without those, you can't access much else. And of course math is critical in a number of other ares, but not all. We need more ways for kids to guide their education by their interests and to delve deeper into specific subjects as well as a different kind of grading system that lets them demonstrate the areas they have explored and mastered.

    I've learned much more out of school in life than in school, but there are things that if I never learned in shcool none of the rest would be possible. So school needs to have a strong trunk of knowledge and then many branches, and I think we need those branches to come earlier. And I think that there are schools that do this out there. My sister for instance went to an Arts based highschool. Not that they only taught arts there, but that was a focus where kids could work wtih talented musicians, actors, painters and other artists while they maintained core classes in science and language. She went from getting bad grades in all her classes to good ones because she could find a passion for learning, and the joy of learning arts motivated here in other topics. She was able to fulfill her desire to grow rather than feeling like she was in a random maze of meaningless trials. But the arts school was still a public school, but it was one that worked very closely with parents, raising additional funds and motivating students. It was both public and also locally minded.
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I think you set up a bunch of straw man positions that few if anyone actually holds and then proceed to tear them down in rhetoric without a shred of evidence or support for your position. That is an editorial and not a debate position.
    Why did you intercede? Mithran and jihoon were about to engage in a perfectly wonderful straw man and red herring throwing contest. After jihoon's nearly incomprhesnsible rambling and arguments without support, you have Mithran following up with the perfect counter announcing most Americans don't know what Communism really is. If they were two chicks, this would be the equivalent of a mud wrestling contest.
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by jihoon49 View Post
    I'm sorry for such confusion. Then what do you think about public education? IS there anything that you think is wrong about public education; or if you believe that it is a great today, why do you believe so?
    Well Jihoon, this is your OP and your thread though you haven't really stated any details about public education except with some big brush stroke generalities like 'it's corrupt and will fall' and 'equality doesn't mean sameness' and then somehow you threw Communism in the mix also. This has already been pointed out to you.

    So..... since this is your OP and you chose the subject of public education, what exactly (some details would help your thread ) do you think is wrong with public education and then when you provide some details can you also give examples that support your view?
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  9. #9
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    The op, while not offering strong evidence, does in fact offer evidence. It does contain an argument. So for those of you saying it does not, you are mistaken...you are not identifying the issue being addressed nor the reasons for the conclusion.

    Here's the breakdown:

    The "issue" of the argument:

    Does the US provide the worst education possible?

    Text: "Our U.S. government may say that they are providing the best education for the students; but in truth, they are providing the worst education possible."

    The answer to the issue (the conclusion):

    Yes, the US provides the worst education possible.

    Text: "Our U.S. government may say that they are providing the best education for the students; but in truth, they are providing the worst education possible."


    The reasons (evidence) used to support the conclusion:

    1) Public education is not a democratic institution fundamental to America's prosperity and well-being.

    Text
    : "The first myth is that public education is a great democratic institution fundamental to America's prosperity and well-being."

    2) Public education does not actually promote diversity.

    Text:
    "The second myth is that public education is necessary as the great equalizer in our society, bringing together children from different ethnic, social, racial, and religious groups and combining them into homogenized "Americans" which we are all supposed to want to be."

    3) Public education does not is not funded by the most possible money by the best country in the world.

    Text
    : "The third myth is that it provides the best possible education because we are the best possible country spending the most possible money."

    4) Our society can survive without public education.

    Text
    : "The fourth myth is that our society cannot survive without it- that is, public education and all the people who run it."

    5) Not all men (people of the state) are equal nor is our government the best entity to identify and legitimize what is good, generous and just.

    Text:
    "These myths are so hard to discard because it requires discarding an even greater myth that props up the whole edifice: that all men are equal and that government, as the great equalizer, is the most benevolent dispenser of human goodness, generosity, and justice on earth."

    6) Public education seeks to eradicate the differences in our culture (sexual/racial/religious).

    Text:
    "But the current trend in public education is to eradicate or deny the existence of differences, particularly sexual, racial, and religious differences, to a point that such confusion that individual identity becomes more and more difficult for youngsters to define, let alone achieve."

    7) Government supports and defends public education because it "gains its foundation" from communist ideas and propaganda.

    Text: "Why the government is doing such thing is because of evil, corrupted government officials who has also been brainwashed by public education, which gains its foundation from communist ideas and propaganda."

    8) Public education corrupts the minds of students who may become the leaders of the next generation.

    Text: "The education in public schools is corrupting the minds of many students, who may become the leaders of the next generation;"

    9) From #8, America will become corrupt just like its leaders.

    Text: "thus America has no choice but to fall into corruption with its corrupt leaders."



    Now...2 things here...

    1) The op definitely contains an argument. We can identify the issue, the conclusion, and supporting statements.

    2) But that does not mean it is strong, compelling, or even true. By breaking down the argument above, we can see just how much work the argument actually needs. For example, even if most (or even all) of the reasons (pieces of evidence, or support) were true, it does not mean that the US provides the worst possible education.

    I won't dissect the argument, there's too much there for my interest (as it just isn't put together well, no offense jihoon49). But "best education" has not been defined, nor has it been explained why it is necessary for education to be valuable. For instance, can't we just have a "good" education (instead of the world's best)? Why is it "all or nothing"? Also, even if we have communist leanings...where has it been demonstrated that this leads to the "worst" education?

    There are a lot of statements that are not true, do not legitimately support the conclusion, do not address the issue properly, etc... There are a lot of hidden prescriptive assumptions and undefined terms as well.

    So...yes, it is an argument, and can stay in the debate forum here. It just a weak argument. With the breakdown offered above, most posters in this thread (if not all) should be able to pick 3-5 pieces of evidence and show how they are not legitimate forms of support for the conclusion or at best, they are very weak.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; February 25th, 2013 at 08:48 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Why did you intercede? Mithran and jihoon were about to engage in a perfectly wonderful straw man and red herring throwing contest. After jihoon's nearly incomprhesnsible rambling and arguments without support, you have Mithran following up with the perfect counter announcing most Americans don't know what Communism really is. If they were two chicks, this would be the equivalent of a mud wrestling contest.
    Seriously, do you really think Americans know the slightest about what Communism really is? Most of them can't even find Cuba on a map. Come to think of it, this might be a case where I support the op. Your education system does seem lacking....

    However, clever use of the character assassination/ad hom tactic. You always liked that one.


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    ---------- Post added at 09:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    So...yes, it is an argument, and can stay in the debate forum here. It just a weak argument. With the breakdown offered above, most posters in this thread (if not all) should be able to pick 3-5 pieces of evidence and show how they are not legitimate forms of support for the conclusion or at best, they are very weak.
    Well this technically is an argument, but my remark I used the word 'actual' as my way of saying 'poor'. But heck any premise and conclusion is technically an argument. Perhaps the wrong choice of words on my part.

    His whole argument is based on what he defines as "myths". This isn't really evidence, more just opinion. His conclusion is also based on his opinion of what those opinions mean, and throws some ideological buzz words on it to try make it stick.

    I mean first lets talk about what we think communism actually is before we start making it the center of our conspiracy theories shall we?
    HINT: This is a trick question

  11. #11
    holykhw
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Well, looking at the evidences (like statistics), I don't think we cannot avoid that American Public School System failed abysmally. Look at the level of education of first graders before PSS and that of today. Parents neglected their responsibility to educate their children and sent their children to PSS because it's "free" when they pay all the tax for it.
    Before getting upset or feeling mocked, we gotta think about it. This generation is truly a generation of "deluded narcissism." This generation is really ignorant but think they are the best. Sad story. But we gotta face the truth now and look for solution to encourage "true education" because every individual is responsible of his or her own education not a government, PSS, or teachers.

  12. #12
    jihoon49
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    What has defiled the education in America through public schools began with the teaching of evolution. The teaching of evolution has corrupted the minds of the students in many ways. First, why teach evolution when even the founder of evolution, Charles Darwin, stated himself that evolution is not true? The teaching that man "evolves" to a better being as time passes has made this generation of deluded narcissists, which has been agreed by Fox news recently. It was also, in fact, Darwin's idea of the survival of the fittest and other principles that promoted Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold to shoot their fellow classmates at the famous Columbine High School massacre.

    You can also see that most public schools, especially high schools, are far behind private and home institutions in their course levels. Look at the national math, science, and other academic competitions in the U.S. Most are won by private and home school students. Where are the public school students who supposedly receive the best education? They rarely get on the news except for criminal and other negative issues.

    What has public education really done to the U.S.? Average SAT scores have dropped throughout the decade, unemployment and criminal rate is skyrocketing, and America's debt is increasing every second. Has the "free" public education which costs billions of dollars really paid off to make the nation greater?Or did it just put U.S. in a greater debt?

    What happened to all the schools with Biblical doctrines and principles that the schools taught and stood on? Most of the great colleges and universities we know today such as Harvard, William and Mary, Yale, Princeton, Columbia were all Christian based schools. In fact, most of the Founding Fathers did not ever attend public schools but received education at home. If you say that public education has nothing to do with private and home education, you are completely wrong. Many states have complicated the laws for home schooling and private schools because the government does not want its citizens to receive other education except for its own public education! The government's competition for education against private and home schools continually goes on today.

  13. #13
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithran View Post
    His whole argument is based on what he defines as "myths". This isn't really evidence, more just opinion.
    They are considered evidence. There are many types of evidence, some stronger, some weaker. And when evidence does not directly relate to the conclusion, it exposes an overall weakness (either in truth or in form) of the argument.

    The nature of evidence, its relevancy, the various types, have all been outlined in this thread:

    Evidence or "Why should I believe it?"

    What his pieces of evidence are missing, is a quality known as "dependability."

    dependability - the quality of the evidence; the greater the quality the more we can call the claim a "fact"

    Each of his pieces of evidence, do not pass the litmus test of being dependable.

    There are only 3 instances when we will agree with a claim (about reality, such as the op has made):

    1) When the claim appears to be undisputed common knowledge, such as the claim "weight lifting increases muscular body mass;"
    2) when the claim is the conclusion from a well-reasoned argument, and
    3) when the claim is adequately supported by solid evidence in the same communication or by other evidence that we know.

    The op's argument does not qualify for #1 (it's not common knowledge) nor #2 (the conclusion does not follow from the reasons offered). This leaves us with #3...but the op does not offer solid evidence either. So this results in a very weak, non-compelling argument.

    His conclusion is also based on his opinion of what those opinions mean, and throws some ideological buzz words on it to try make it stick.

    I mean first lets talk about what we think communism actually is before we start making it the center of our conspiracy theories shall we?
    I agree.

    ---------- Post added at 08:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by jihoon49 View Post
    What has defiled the education in America through public schools began with the teaching of evolution. The teaching of evolution has corrupted the minds of the students in many ways. First, why teach evolution when even the founder of evolution, Charles Darwin, stated himself that evolution is not true?
    You'll have to start actually providing solid evidence for your claims jihoon. Can you support that claim?

    It was also, in fact, Darwin's idea of the survival of the fittest and other principles that promoted Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold to shoot their fellow classmates at the famous Columbine High School massacre.
    So the teaching of the theory of evolution is at least partly to blame for the Columbine shooting? Can you support that?
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithran View Post
    Seriously, do you really think Americans know the slightest about what Communism really is? Most of them can't even find Cuba on a map. Come to think of it, this might be a case where I support the op. Your education system does seem lacking....
    I do think most Americans have the slightest inkling about what Communism is. Are they well versed and able to write a 15-20 page term paper on it? Probably not. Most Americans don't use maps. We have smartphones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithran View Post
    However, clever use of the character assassination/ad hom tactic. You always liked that one.
    I do love a good assassination.


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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by holykhw View Post
    Well, looking at the evidences (like statistics), I don't think we cannot avoid that American Public School System failed abysmally. Look at the level of education of first graders before PSS and that of today. Parents neglected their responsibility to educate their children and sent their children to PSS because it's "free" when they pay all the tax for it.
    Before public schools? We had public schools in the original colonies of the united states. Obviously they were not federal since there was no federal government at the time. You should probably do some reading on the history of public education in the US. What statistics are you reviewing exactly?

    Before getting upset or feeling mocked, we gotta think about it. This generation is truly a generation of "deluded narcissism." This generation is really ignorant but think they are the best. Sad story. But we gotta face the truth now and look for solution to encourage "true education" because every individual is responsible of his or her own education not a government, PSS, or teachers.
    Deluded narcissism? How do you support that claim? Every generation of kids has high aspirations for themselves, they hope to do great things. There is nothing wrong with optimism. All kids have a bit of delusion about them because they simply don't have a lot of experience outside the nest yet. That is just the way of life. What do you think constitutes "true education" exactly?

    ---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by jihoon49 View Post
    What has defiled the education in America through public schools began with the teaching of evolution. The teaching of evolution has corrupted the minds of the students in many ways. First, why teach evolution when even the founder of evolution, Charles Darwin, stated himself that evolution is not true? The teaching that man "evolves" to a better being as time passes has made this generation of deluded narcissists, which has been agreed by Fox news recently. It was also, in fact, Darwin's idea of the survival of the fittest and other principles that promoted Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold to shoot their fellow classmates at the famous Columbine High School massacre.
    Ahhh the nonsense starts to come out now. Charles Darwin did not state evolution was not true. you are probably referring to the myth of his death bed recanting of his writings. Its ********.

    http://science.skepticproject.com/ar...rwin/religion/
    There's no evidence that he said either, or anything even close to it. The story originates from a woman named Elizabeth Hope who claimed in 1915 that she had visited Darwin while he was dying, claiming that he had recanted his theory of evolution and accepted Jesus Christ. His family strongly denied that she was even there, as his son Francis wrote in 1918:

    "Lady Hope's account of my father's views on religion is quite untrue. I have publicly accused her of falsehood, but have not seen any reply. My father's agnostic point of view is given in my Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Vol. I., pp. 304 - 317. You are at liberty to publish the above statement. Indeed, I shall be glad if you will do so."

    Then in 1922 his daughter Henrietta stated:

    "I was present at his deathbed, Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A. ... ...The whole story has no foundation what-so-ever."

    As the above shows[12][13][14][15], there's no proof what so ever that Darwin ever renounced his theory of evolution. Even if he had renounced it, it doesn't change the massive amounts of scientific evidence that show evolution is scientific fact.

    As to Darwin having anything to do with columbine, that is pure BS conjecture. Harris was diagnosed after the event as a psychopath by FBI psychologists, not as a darwinist. He and his compatriot had been the target of school bullies for years leaving them with little love for the rest of their classmates or the adults who were tasked with keeping them safe. They also had both been previously arrested for theft. None of that has anything to do with evolution.

    You can also see that most public schools, especially high schools, are far behind private and home institutions in their course levels. Look at the national math, science, and other academic competitions in the U.S. Most are won by private and home school students. Where are the public school students who supposedly receive the best education? They rarely get on the news except for criminal and other negative issues.
    Again, I don't know many people that argue public schools are better than elite private schools. Parents who have stacks of cash send their kids to the very best education money can buy. But most Americans are not that wealthy and cannot afford such luxuries. Some parents are exceptional individuals who have the time and skill to homeschooling their kids effectively. More power to them. they are allowed to do so so long as they can demonstrate the capability. Public education is there so everyone has access to a reasonable course of instruction. It does not preclude people from making other choices for their kids.

    What has public education really done to the U.S.? Average SAT scores have dropped throughout the decade, unemployment and criminal rate is skyrocketing, and America's debt is increasing every second. Has the "free" public education which costs billions of dollars really paid off to make the nation greater?Or did it just put U.S. in a greater debt?
    A. The federal debt has little to do with education since most education funding is at the state, county or city level of government.
    B. SAT scores have not dropped through out the decade. In 2001 they were 506/514 in 2011 they were 497/514 and between its gone up and down. While that is a small drop its within the typical variation for the last 30 years.
    C. As to crime
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
    In the long term, violent crime in the United States has been in decline since colonial times.[9] However, during the early 20th century, crime rates in the United States were higher compared to parts of Western Europe. For example, 198 homicides were recorded in the American city of Chicago in 1916, a city of slightly over 2 million at the time. This level of crime was not exceptional when compared to other American cities such as New York, but was much higher relative to European cities, such as London, which then had three times the population but recorded only 45 homicides in the same year.[10]

    After World War II, crime rates increased in the United States, peaking from the 1970s to the early 1990s. Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since the 1990s, however, crime in the United States has declined steeply. Several theories have been proposed to explain this decline:

    If you want to see a lack of learning, you should look in the mirror in this case. Wherever it is you are getting your information about the state of the world, they are lying to you. They are feeding you propaganda and lies. The truth is rarely one sided and it doesn't always play upon your fears and concerns. Those who want to manipulate you however will do so at every turn.

    What happened to all the schools with Biblical doctrines and principles that the schools taught and stood on?
    Nothing. You can still attend them if you choose to.

    Most of the great colleges and universities we know today such as Harvard, William and Mary, Yale, Princeton, Columbia were all Christian based schools.
    They still largely are. You can find chapels and services and religious teaching at all of them. But they were always institutions of learning about the real world, not isolating themselves to religious dogma. Religion and science and learning need not be opponents of one another. What many fundamentalist types forget is that religion was often on the forefront of discovery and science seeking to learn more about creation rather than burying their head in the sand and pretending they already knew the mind of god without any effort to seek it.

    You don't want education, you want enforced ignorance. You don't want to learn something new, you only want to preserve that which is tradition. That is not how the world moves forward, it is how it slides backwards.

    In fact, most of the Founding Fathers did not ever attend public schools but received education at home.
    Most of them were wealthy and had private tutors or went to private schools ,but they nearly all greatly valued education.
    http://www.constitutionfacts.com/?se...atingFacts.cfm
    Of the Founding Fathers who became president, only George Washington did not go to college. John Adams graduated from Harvard, James Madison graduated from Princeton, and Thomas Jefferson attended the College of William and Mary.

    Upon graduating from Harvard, John Adams became a grammar school teacher. “My little school, like the great world, is made up of Kings, politicians, divines, fops, buffoons, fiddlers, fools, coxcombs, sycophants, chimney sweeps, and every other character I see in the world. I would rather sit in school and consider which of my pupils will turn out be a hero, and which a rake, which a philosopher and which a parasite, than to have an income of a thousand pounds a year.”

    http://www.winningwordsproject.com/f...blic_education
    After outlining a legislative framework, Adams (the president) moves on to specifics. After a well-armed militia, Adams wrote, "Laws for the liberal education of youth, especially of the lower class of people, are so extremely wise and useful, that, to a human and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant."

    John Adams wasn't alone in this belief. Thomas Jefferson was so committed to his belief that self-government was doomed to fail without an educated electorate that in his 1806 State of the Union address, he called for federally funded public education, saying "An amendment to our constitution must here come in the aid of public education. The influence over government must be shared among all people."

    In all the research and reading I have done on this subject, I've been unable to find one Founding Father who devalued public education or argued against education of the general public. There was disagreement around who should control public education. The same conflict we see today between federalists and state's rights advocates hindered the question of whether public education should be a state matter or a federal matter, which ultimately led to the defeat of Jefferson's initiatives. Yes, tension existed as to whether states, municipalities or the federal government should control public education, but no one opposed the idea of providing one at public expense.

    Perhaps you could do research and find such evidence. I suspect you can't.

    If you say that public education has nothing to do with private and home education, you are completely wrong. Many states have complicated the laws for home schooling and private schools because the government does not want its citizens to receive other education except for its own public education! The government's competition for education against private and home schools continually goes on today.
    What they do is require is that you prove you can provide a quality education. If you are smart enough to teach your kids you should be able to understand the "complication" involved in home schooling your kids.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  16. #16
    sharky45
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Ibelsd, why don't you show us your side of argument before judging others that it doesn't make any sense?

  17. #17
    jihoon49
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    [QUOTE=Sigfried;513278]Before public schools? We had public schools in the original colonies of the united states. Obviously they were not federal since there was no federal government at the time. You should probably do some reading on the history of public education in the US. What statistics are you reviewing exactly?

    By what definition of public school are you speaking of? Yes, it was a school for the "public," but the definition has changed throughout history as the government began to take full repsonsibility of it. Even if they were public schools, do you know what they taught? The students' first textbooks in the colonies was the Bible; also the Bible was the foundation of its education, as also it was the foundation for the U.S. Constitution.

  18. #18
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    America is really degrading in education. public education is the problem, i think. I think that public schools are eager to plant the seed of communism/socialism in young brains so when they grow, no one will be able to oppose them.

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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    If it is true that education in the US is declining, it is more likely to do with laziness and a lack of interest in improving it. I don't believe it is down to any deliberate design!

  20. #20
    sharky45
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    Re: Public Education: Communism in America and the reason why America is falling

    Quote Originally Posted by jihoon49 View Post
    Have you ever heard of the saying, "America sucks because you suck"? It is definitely true thanks to the "very good" service our government has provided us with its "free" education. You should understand that I am being sarcastic here. Our U.S. government may say that they are providing the best education for the students; but in truth, they are providing the worst education possible.

    What is public education? The most commonly held view of public education is, without doubt, the least accurate, in that it tells us very little about the realities of public education. It is based on a collection of myths which most Americans are quite reluctant to give up.

    The first myth is that public education is a great democratic institution fundamental to America's prosperity and well-being. The second myth is that public education is necessary as the great equalizer in our society, bringing together children from different ethnic, social, racial, and religious groups and combining them into homogenized "Americans" which we are all supposed to want to be. The third myth is that it provides the best possible education because we are the best possible country spending the most possible money. The fourth myth is that our society cannot survive without it- that is, public education and all the people who run it.

    These myths are so hard to discard because it requires discarding an even greater myth that props up the whole edifice: that all men are equal and that government, as the great equalizer, is the most benevolent dispenser of human goodness, generosity, and justice on earth. The framers of the Declaration of Independence did not mean "created equal" in the egalitarian sense it is used today. Egalitarianism leads to monotonous sameness, in which individuality, free choice, and the expression of individual values are suppressed for a supposed higher value of collective sameness. What they meant was that everyone should have the maximum freedom and opportunity to lead his or her life according to that individual's values. But the current trend in public education is to eradicate or deny the existence of differences, particularly sexual, racial, and religious differences, to a point that such confusion that individual identity becomes more and more difficult for youngsters to define, let alone achieve. The only way an individual can achieve a sense of identity today in public education is to rebel against it. And perhaps this is one of the reasons for the steadily increasing destruction of school property by American students.

    By brainwashing the students with such ideas, the government uses them for their own advantage. Why the government is doing such thing is because of evil, corrupted government officials who has also been brainwashed by public education, which gains its foundation from communist ideas and propaganda.
    The education in public schools is corrupting the minds of many students, who may become the leaders of the next generation; thus America has no choice but to fall into corruption with its corrupt leaders.

    What do you think?
    by the way, who said that we are going to public school to learn? i have kids, and they all go to public school, but the reason they go to public is to see the different side of views and also to make friends. You don't need a private or public school just to learn. there are so many ways out there to be educated. for example, Bible is a great way to start the foundation. when you have the right foundation, u will search out what is true and will also go out to see other's perspective. Tim Tebow is a Christian, he was homeschooled by his mom, but he went to a public school to play football and make friends. So really, how you know if others are going to public school just to learn?

    ---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

    I agree with you @Nejoshie, its the laziness and lack of interest. but even if the education in U.S. is declining, if they are not lazy, they would go out to search for more to learn

  21. Thanks Nejoshie thanked for this post
 

 
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