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  1. #1
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    Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

    Atheists consistently attempt to take the higher ground by insisting Christians are mental midgets for believing in a non-existent "sky god." They insist that the Judeo-Christian Bible is a book of fairytales. At one website where I have debated, the Bible was routinely referred to by atheists as the BuyBull. Not only that, in most of my conversations with atheists at various websites, their usual accusation is that because of the belief in God, theists have committed all sorts of human rights violations in the name of "cultish religions." According to the many atheists I have debated at other websites, it is the belief in God that has caused people to commit the various atrocities common to mankind. Remove religion, belief in God, and belief in the Bible--the atheists argue--and the world will be a better place. This latter conclusion is mortally flawed for the following reasons:

    1. Atheists have committed human rights violations en masse throughout history. For instance, Joseph Stalin--the atheist--ordered the deaths of between 40 million to 62 million people (20 million of which were everyday Soviet civilians), compared to the 9 million or so killed by Adolph Hitler the Roman Catholic who merely claimed he was a Christian.

    In reality, the problem is not the Bible or God. The problem is people, including those in false religions which have failed to teach the masses Biblical truths. An appreciation for Biblical truths and Jehovah's righteous standards of what's right and what's wrong is the only detriment against people committing human rights violations. Blaming God for the crimes of false Christians and other false religions is an attempt at passing the buck.


    "See! This only I have found, that the true God made mankind upright, but they themselves have sought out many plans." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)


    "They have acted ruinously on their own part; they are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!" (Deuteronomy 32:5)


    2. Atheism is itself a religion. While atheist will argue that they don't believe in any god, the issue is not merely non-belief in God or gods but in having ANY sort of belief system that is vitally important in one's life. The belief system of atheism is centered around the default atheist philosophy of "Secular Humanism."


    3. Atheism is a religion according to a 2005 Wisconsin Federal Court ruling on the matter of Kaufman v. McCaughtry, as well as the Torcaso v. Watkins case by the 1961 U.S. Supreme Court—the highest court in the land—where court rulings become national law.
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    1. Although Stalin was an atheist, he didn't kill people because of atheism. On the other hand, to this day people kill specifically due to their religious beliefs; even including through faith-healing - praying instead of seeking medical attention.

    It's fair to blame the people but it is due to the system being a poor one to begin with: there is no real authoritative interpretation of the Bible and indeed the same book has been on the opposite sides of many a debate. But the weakness isn't just in the Bible but all kinds of religious/spiritual/supernatural thinking - it's just not based on verifiable evidence so they open themselves up to all kinds of self-anointed representatives of some deity or other. Seems to me that a system makes it relatively easy to prey on people's willingness to believe in the supernatural should probably shored up or abandoned.

    2. Atheism isn't a religion - there's no praying or singing or any human rituals that are explicitly atheist; there no atheist churches nor a priesthood; and there is no global recognition of atheism across all religions - indeed some, Islam, have a death penalty for apostasy. There's secularism which may be the closest thing but that's not really atheist, it's just ignores deities and religions.

    3. On the other hand, if atheism is a religion then can I make my home a place of worship and get a big tax deduction? Can I get a personal exceptions if I become a priest? If I publish an atheist book, can I do it tax free? Sounds like a good deal to me. By the way it seems that the Torcaso vs Watkins nor the Kaufman vs McCaughtry cases; can you point out specifically why this is the case?

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    1. Although Stalin was an atheist, he didn't kill people because of atheism. On the other hand, to this day people kill specifically due to their religious beliefs; even including through faith-healing - praying instead of seeking medical attention.

    It's fair to blame the people but it is due to the system being a poor one to begin with: there is no real authoritative interpretation of the Bible and indeed the same book has been on the opposite sides of many a debate. But the weakness isn't just in the Bible but all kinds of religious/spiritual/supernatural thinking - it's just not based on verifiable evidence so they open themselves up to all kinds of self-anointed representatives of some deity or other. Seems to me that a system makes it relatively easy to prey on people's willingness to believe in the supernatural should probably shored up or abandoned.
    And Islamic terrorists don't kill because of "theism", they kill because of a particular brand of it--radical Islam. Stalin didn't kill because of "atheism", he killed because of a particular brand of it.

    People were killed by Stalinists due to their religious beliefs. Churches in Russia were targeted because they were thought to be rivals to the state's authority and needed to be quashed.

    2. Atheism isn't a religion - there's no praying or singing or any human rituals that are explicitly atheist; there no atheist churches nor a priesthood; and there is no global recognition of atheism across all religions - indeed some, Islam, have a death penalty for apostasy. There's secularism which may be the closest thing but that's not really atheist, it's just ignores deities and religions.
    There isn't a priesthood? Internet atheists sure treat Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, et al. as clergy.

    There is atheist literature. There are atheist evangelicals--Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc.--who popularize their brand of atheism and try to convert others to hold beliefs about God that are similar to their own.

    3. On the other hand, if atheism is a religion then can I make my home a place of worship and get a big tax deduction? Can I get a personal exceptions if I become a priest? If I publish an atheist book, can I do it tax free? Sounds like a good deal to me. By the way it seems that the Torcaso vs Watkins nor the Kaufman vs McCaughtry cases; can you point out specifically why this is the case?
    Sure, you just can't live there. Pastors can't live in the church.

    Theists don't get to publish books "tax free", except perhaps in the case of "business cost" books. But an atheist NPO that wanted to produce pamphlets would get a similar tax write-off.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    2. Atheism isn't a religion - there's no praying or singing or any human rituals that are explicitly atheist; there no atheist churches nor a priesthood; and there is no global recognition of atheism across all religions - indeed some, Islam, have a death penalty for apostasy. There's secularism which may be the closest thing but that's not really atheist, it's just ignores deities and religions.
    ALTER2EGO -to- JIM JONES8934:
    Where did you get the idea the classification "religion" requires praying, singing, etc.? That's the same response I get from atheists at other websites where this topic is discussed. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Secular Humanism is an Atheist Religion. The only requirement is that a philosophy be of overwhelming importance in one's life for it to be classified as "religion." Notice the definition below. Keep your eyes on the words that are bolded at definition #5.

    DEFINITION OF "RELIGION":

    Collins
    World English Dictionary
    religion (rɪˈlɪdʒən)

    — n
    1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny
    2. any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief: the Christian religion
    3. the attitude and feeling of one who believes in a transcendent controlling power or powers
    4. chiefly RC Church the way of life determined by the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience entered upon by monks, friars, and nuns: to enter religion
    5. something of overwhelming importance to a person: football is his religion
    6. archaic
    a. the practice of sacred ritual observances
    b. sacred rites and ceremonies
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Secular Humanism is an Atheist Religion.
    "Peloza v. Capistrano School District

    The claim that secular humanism could be considered a religion for legal purposes was examined by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Peloza v. Capistrano School District, 37 F.3d 517 (9th Cir. 1994), cert. denied, 515 U.S. 1173 (1995). In this case, a science teacher argued that, by requiring him to teach evolution, his school district was forcing him to teach the "religion" of secular humanism. The Court responded, "We reject this claim because neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit, has ever held that evolutionism or Secular Humanism are 'religions' for Establishment Clause purposes." The Supreme Court refused to review the case."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular...aso_v._Watkins


    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    The only requirement is that a philosophy be of overwhelming importance in one's life for it to be classified as "religion." Notice the definition below. Keep your eyes on the words that are bolded at definition #5.
    Actually by definition 5, it does not have to be a philosophy. The example given is that "football" is a religion which really means ANYTHING that people like is a "religion" (football, a certain TV show, poker, dying hair, Motley Crue, etc.) if one is capable of saying "X is my religion" then it qualifies as a religion under definition #5. But if you mean that atheism is a religion in the same way that Christianity is a religion, then you have to go with definitions #1 and #2.

    1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny
    2. any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief: the Christian religion.

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    And Islamic terrorists don't kill because of "theism", they kill because of a particular brand of it--radical Islam. Stalin didn't kill because of "atheism", he killed because of a particular brand of it.
    Islamic terrorists do kill because of their religion though; either via the direct orders of their religious leaders or because Koran allows for it (e.g. beheading people in Saudi Arabia still).

    But I don't think Communism is a 'brand' of atheism though in the same sense. It's like saying that Islam is a brand of Christianity; i.e. one that doesn't believe in Christ. I think atheism is an active disbelief in God whereas Communism just doesn't need God.

    People were killed by Stalinists due to their religious beliefs. Churches in Russia were targeted because they were thought to be rivals to the state's authority and needed to be quashed.
    True, but Stalin killed everyone that disagreed with him. It certainly wasn't because of his atheism!


    There isn't a priesthood? Internet atheists sure treat Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, et al. as clergy.
    No, there may be a set of popular proponents but priesthood seems to be taking it a bit far. No-one has asked, nor have they offered any directives regarding human sexual behavior for starters.

    There is atheist literature. There are atheist evangelicals--Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc.--who popularize their brand of atheism and try to convert others to hold beliefs about God that are similar to their own.
    And how does that make it a religion? More so than say, the latest diet fad?


    Sure, you just can't live there. Pastors can't live in the church.
    Oh what? I thought priests live in rectories or in Church buildings. Are they taxed for income too?

    Theists don't get to publish books "tax free", except perhaps in the case of "business cost" books. But an atheist NPO that wanted to produce pamphlets would get a similar tax write-off.
    I guess, I just have to take what I can. A free building to practice my atheist religion of playing arcade games seems to be a good idea I can work with.

    ---------- Post added at 10:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- JIM JONES8934:
    Where did you get the idea the classification "religion" requires praying, singing, etc.? That's the same response I get from atheists at other websites where this topic is discussed. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Secular Humanism is an Atheist Religion. The only requirement is that a philosophy be of overwhelming importance in one's life for it to be classified as "religion." Notice the definition below. Keep your eyes on the words that are bolded at definition #5.

    DEFINITION OF "RELIGION":
    You're using the only definition that makes no sense in the context of the discussion. So now football could be a religion too! So are cave paintings religious too because they are 'archaic'?

    I think you are confusing the word 'classified' with 'likened to'. The former you seem to be using in a legal sense but the latter is the use of the word religion as a simile.

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    "Peloza v. Capistrano School District

    The claim that secular humanism could be considered a religion for legal purposes was examined by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Peloza v. Capistrano School District, 37 F.3d 517 (9th Cir. 1994), cert. denied, 515 U.S. 1173 (1995). In this case, a science teacher argued that, by requiring him to teach evolution, his school district was forcing him to teach the "religion" of secular humanism. The Court responded, "We reject this claim because neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit, has ever held that evolutionism or Secular Humanism are 'religions' for Establishment Clause purposes." The Supreme Court refused to review the case."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular...aso_v._Watkins




    Actually by definition 5, it does not have to be a philosophy. The example given is that "football" is a religion which really means ANYTHING that people like is a "religion" (football, a certain TV show, poker, dying hair, Motley Crue, etc.) if one is capable of saying "X is my religion" then it qualifies as a religion under definition #5. But if you mean that atheism is a religion in the same way that Christianity is a religion, then you have to go with definitions #1 and #2.

    1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny
    2. any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief: the Christian religion.
    ALTER2EGO -to- MICAN333:
    As I said in my OP: Atheism is recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court as religion. So much so, that atheists are allowed tax benefits that were previously allowed only to orthodox religions.

    Your reference to the case of Peloza v. Capistrano School District shows the hypocrisy of it all. It is similar to another case that I am familiar with: Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. Both the Peloza and Kitzmiller cases demonstrate the hypocrisy of members of the Religion of Atheism. Atheists have no problem using their religion status when it suits their purposes, as follows.

    1. To get tax benefits afforded only to religions.
    2. To get their own chaplains and distribute their literature.
    3. To conscientiously object to war based upon their religious status


    But when they want to promote their atheist ideology in schools by teaching evolution theory, they claim they are not a religion. The case of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District resulted when theists filed a lawsuit saying atheists were teaching their religious ideology (evolution theory) in schools, while theists are not permitted to discuss Genesis creation in the very same school. The judges who ruled in the atheists' favor in both the Peloza and Kitzmiller cases were most likely atheists. I will quote one source that discusses this hypocrisy/double-standards at another time.
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    But when they want to promote their atheist ideology in schools by teaching evolution theory, they claim they are not a religion.
    Evolution is not the same as atheism. One can be a theist and believe in evolution.

    In fact, I am a theist who believes in evolution and if a belief in evolution required atheism I could not hold the beliefs that I do.
    Last edited by mican333; March 7th, 2013 at 07:17 AM.

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    But when they want to promote their atheist ideology in schools by teaching evolution theory, they claim they are not a religion.
    Evolution is not the same as atheism. One can be a theist and believe in evolution.

    In fact, I am a theist who believes in evolution and if a belief in evolution required atheism I could not hold the beliefs that I do.
    ALTER2EGO -to- MICAN333:
    Nobody said it was. I didn't say evolution theory is the same as atheism.

    Your claim to being a theist has nothing whatever to do with your adoption of the atheist ideology of evolution theory. There are people who claim they are theists who believe all sorts of things that are nowhere to be found in God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    [COLOR="#000080"]ALTER2EGO -to- MICAN333:
    As I said in my OP: Atheism is recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court as religion. So much so, that atheists are allowed tax benefits that were previously allowed only to orthodox religions.
    Thing of it is, your OP is wrong. That is because you apparently don't have a strong grasp of US law.

    The establishment clause of the constitution says.
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    The upshot of this is that the federal government cannot have laws or rules that coerce anyone to any kind of religions group or belief, show any preference for any given religion, nor do anything to prohibit an expression of religious belief by a private citizen.

    What the courts have ruled in most of the cases you site, is not that atheism is a religion, but that laws that require an expression of religions belief or limit a right to only those who hold a religions beleif, is unconstitutional as it represents an establishment of religion by the state.

    Lets look at the cases
    Kaufman v. McCaughtry
    In this case a group of prisoners wanted to meet and discuss atheism and what have you. The prison was only allowing theist groups to meet in this way. The court ruled that by only allowing explicit religious groups, the prison was essentially requiring theist belief to exercise a right of assembly, thus establishing a mandate for religious belief to receive special privileges. It at no time declared that atheists were a religion. It said that it was illegal to limit such benefits only to religious groups.

    This is from the decision...
    "It is undisputed that other religious
    groups are permitted to meet at Kaufman’s prison, and
    the defendants have advanced no secular reason why
    the security concerns they cited as a reason to deny
    his request for an atheist group do not apply equally to
    gatherings of Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or Wiccan
    inmates"

    The government is absolutely not allowed to give special privileges to religious groups.

    Torcaso v. Watkins
    In this case Maryland required that any public official must declare a belief in God to hold public office. An atheist was appointed a as a notary public and challenged this law.
    The supreme court did not rule that atheism was a religion, it ruled that it such a law violated the establishment clause of the constitution. No religious belief can be favored by our law.

    From Everson v. Board of Education (1947):
    "The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."

    This does not make atheism a religion, it does make it a statement of religious belief and the state is not allowed to discriminate based on your religions opinion regardless of if you are a member of a religion or not.

    Lets talk about Taxes
    The US government is not allowed to grant tax breaks to religion that they do not grant to other groups. Nor could they offer tax breaks to non religious groups they don't offer to religious groups. Both would be un-constitutional.

    The tax breaks that religious groups get, can be used by non religious groups. Churches and other institutions engaged in commercial enterprise or political advocacy cannot get tax exception on those activities. Non-religious non-commercial groups can get all the same tax breaks that churches do. The only advantage a church has is there is a common understanding that religious worship is a not for profit enterprise so they don't have to do that much to prove the claim.

    From a legal perspective: No church gets a tax break because they are a church. Being a church just happens to fall into a category of non-commercial groups that are granted tax exemptions.

    Your reference to the case of Peloza v. Capistrano School District shows the hypocrisy of it all. It is similar to another case that I am familiar with: Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. Both the Peloza and Kitzmiller cases demonstrate the hypocrisy of members of the Religion of Atheism. Atheists have no problem using their religion status when it suits their purposes, as follows.

    1. To get tax benefits afforded only to religions.
    As you have now learned, there are no such tax benefits.

    2. To get their own chaplains and distribute their literature.
    There is no law that would prohibit any group from distributing literature or naming leaders. The right to free speech and assembly applies equally to all Americans.

    3. To conscientiously object to war based upon their religious status
    This too is not restricted to religion
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector
    "In the United States, there are two main criteria for classification as a conscientious objector. First, the objector must be opposed to war in any form, Gillette v. United States, 401 U.S. 437. Second, the objection must be sincere, Witmer v. United States, 348 U.S. 375. That he must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief was no longer a criterion after cases broadened it to include non-religious moral belief, United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 and Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333. COs willing to perform non-combatant military functions are classed 1-A-O by the U.S.; those unwilling to serve at all are 1-O."

    Alter2Ego
    You do not understand Sceince
    You do not understand Atheism
    You do not understand Evolution
    And most of all you do not understand the laws of your own Country.

    I suggest educating yourself. The resources are readily available to those willing to learn.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Nobody said it was. I didn't say evolution theory is the same as atheism.
    Do you claim that teaching evolution is teaching atheism or not?

    If it's not teaching atheism then there's no problem with evolution in the classroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Your claim to being a theist has nothing whatever to do with your adoption of the atheist ideology of evolution theory. There are people who claim they are theists who believe all sorts of things that are nowhere to be found in God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.
    First off, one does not need to be a Christian to be a theist.

    Here is the definition of God:

    "1
    capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
    a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe"

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

    Since I believe that such a being exists, I am a theist.

    And since there is nothing in the theory of evolution that denies me ability to believe in God, the theory of evolution cannot logically be considered an atheistic ideology.

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Do you claim that teaching evolution is teaching atheism or not?

    If it's not teaching atheism then there's no problem with evolution in the classroom.



    First off, one does not need to be a Christian to be a theist.

    Here is the definition of God:

    "1
    capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
    a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe"

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

    Since I believe that such a being exists, I am a theist.

    And since there is nothing in the theory of evolution that denies me ability to believe in God, the theory of evolution cannot logically be considered an atheistic ideology.
    ALTER2EGO -to- MICAN333:
    I mentioned twice in this thread that evolution theory is an atheist ideology. Instead of you giving me the definition of "god," you should have instead looked up the meaning of the word "ideology," because you've taken it upon yourself to decide that ideologies (e.g. evolution theory and Secular Humanism) are synonyms for atheism.


    DEFINITION OF "IDEOLOGY":

    "The definition of ideology is the set of ideas and beliefs that are important to a person, a group, or a culture. (noun)

    An example of an ideology is a candidate's statement about their beliefs."

    http://www.yourdictionary.com/ideology



    DEFINITION OF "SYNONYM":
    "The definition of a synonym is a word that means the same or nearly the same thing as another word. (noun)

    An example of synonym is small and little."

    http://www.yourdictionary.com/synonym


    An atheist is someone who rejects belief in a supernatural god. Evolution theory is a belief or ideology--often promoted by atheists--that all forms of life that have ever existed on earth evolved from a "common ancestor" and that the "common ancestor" did not result from the intervention of a supernatural God aka Jehovah. You have decided that atheism = evolution theory, when the terms clearly are not synonyms. Then you turn around and put your confusion on me.



    FYI: In my previous response to you, I said people claim they are theists but believe things that are nowhere to be found in God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. That does not mean that I believe all theists are Christians. Some pagans are theists, Muslims are theists, and Jews are theists.


    Truth be told, even atheists have a god. Their god is science--frequently science fiction.
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Evolution theory is a belief or ideology--often promoted by atheists--that all forms of life that have ever existed on earth evolved from a "common ancestor" and that the "common ancestor" did not result from the intervention of a supernatural God aka Jehovah.
    Support or retract that the theory of evolution says that the "common ancestor" did not result from the intervention of a supernatural God aka Jehovah.

    And when I ask for support, I do not mean a link to a creationist making the same argument you are. I want a link to a informed non-biased source that spells out what the theory of evolution is. I will certainly accept wikipedia but any source that does not have a bias one way or another will do.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_evolution

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    DEFINITION OF "IDEOLOGY":[/COLOR]
    [COLOR="#800000"]"The definition of ideology is the set of ideas and beliefs that are important to a person, a group, or a culture. (noun)

    An atheist is someone who rejects belief in a supernatural god. Evolution theory is a belief or ideology--often promoted by atheists--that all forms of life that have ever existed on earth evolved from a "common ancestor" and that the "common ancestor" did not result from the intervention of a supernatural God aka Jehovah. You have decided that atheism = evolution theory, when the terms clearly are not synonyms. Then you turn around and put your confusion on me.


    The problem with you claiming Evolution is an Atheist Ideology is that Evolution is not critical or essential to Atheism. Evolution is a scientific explanation for the orders of life on earth past and present. Evolution does not disprove god, nor does it prove an absence of one. It may be contrary to some specific theist beliefs, but atheism goes well beyond denying any given faith. Even theists have deep disagreement among one another about how living things came to be. The fact that many theists and atheists share agreement that Evolution is very likely true, highlights that it is not intrinsically related.

    Atheists also agree that gravity is a real natural phenomenon. Indeed nearly 100% of them agree upon that. Yet that does not make gravity an atheist ideology.

    There is an atheist ideology. It goes a bit like this..
    There are no Gods.
    Belief in Gods is rationally foolish.
    My views should be as respected in law as any religious person's views.
    The world can best be understood through empirical observation and testing.

    And that is about it.

    Truth be told, even atheists have a god. Their god is science--frequently science fiction.
    This is not true. Science is a tool, it is not a god. No one worships it or expects it to act on their behalf. It is a tool we use to better predict the outcomes of our actions and the future of the natural world. It works quite well for that, much better than praying or reading tea leaves, or trusting ancient prophesy. But it is not a god of any kind. That is purely ******** rhetoric on your behalf.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    This is not true. Science is a tool, it is not a god.
    I would agree. Unfortunately, for scientific materialists the materialism comes first, the science comes thereafter.

    It is a tool we use to better predict the outcomes of our actions and the future of the natural world.
    Right, and scientists often have to side with science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs.
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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Right, and scientists often have to side with science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs.
    They are scientists. Doctors side with medicine first and engineers with physics first and so on.

    But I'll grant you that for some folks science can become a sort of dogma, and that isn't its proper role.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    They are scientists.
    Then the science should come before materialism, nes pau?

    Doctors side with medicine first
    Not always; this is changing. Fortunately, doctors are not as dogmatic as materialistic scienitists.

    But the tide may be turning -- a recent study in the journal Archives of Internal Medicine has found that three percent of people seeking out mind/body treatments, such as yoga, meditation, tai chi, deep breathing and progressive muscle relaxation, are doing so based on a referral from a medical provider.

    And while that number may not seem to be particularly high, consider a yoga or meditation class, of say, 30 people -- on average, one of them is there because their provider told them to be, explains lead author and HuffPost blogger Aditi Nerurkar, M.D., M.P.H, a physician and integrative medicine fellow at Harvard Medical school and Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. "We weren't expecting it to be that high," she says. "Forty-one million Americans are using mind-body therapies. Of those, 6.4 million are using mind-body therapies because they were recommended to by their provider."
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_866555.html


    While doctors are schooled in traditional Western medicine, a growing number like Michelfelder are turning to complementary and alternative medicine to stay healthy, then integrating the techniques into their medical practices. Michelfelder is board-certified in family medicine, acupuncture and medical hypnosis.
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...stern-medicine

    But I'll grant you that for some folks science can become a sort of dogma, and that isn't its proper role.
    This is because they are forced by a "priori adherence to material causes." Materialism is absolute and it is also an atheistic philosophy.

    Materialism is an atheistic philosophy that says that all of reality is reducible to matter and its interactions. It has gained ground because many people think that it’s supported by science. They think that physics has shown the material world to be a closed system of cause and effect, sealed off from the influence of any non-physical realities — if any there be. Since our minds and thoughts obviously do affect the physical world, it would follow that they are themselves merely physical phenomena. No room for a spiritual soul or free will: for materialists we are just “machines made of meat.”

    Quantum mechanics, however, throws a monkey wrench into this simple mechanical view of things. No less a figure than Eugene Wigner, a Nobel Prize winner in physics, claimed that materialism — at least with regard to the human mind — is not “logically consistent with present quantum mechanics.” And on the basis of quantum mechanics, Sir Rudolf Peierls, another great 20th-century physicist, said, “the premise that you can describe in terms of physics the whole function of a human being … including [his] knowledge, and [his] consciousness, is untenable. There is still something missing.”

    Stephen_BarrStephen M. Barr
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    University of Delaware
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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I would agree. Unfortunately, for scientific materialists the materialism comes first, the science comes thereafter.
    .
    I was just wondering how science would work if it it supposed to study non material things? I am curious to know how such a science would work?

    How would these tests go?
    HINT: This is a trick question

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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithran View Post
    I was just wondering how science would work if it it supposed to study non material things? I am curious to know how such a science would work?
    The scientific method works in investigating non-material phenomena. The challenge isn't in the wonderful and beautiful methods of science. The current challenge is in a priori commitment to materialism (a god and dogmatic religion of sorts).
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    Re: Federal Court & U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: Atheism is Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The scientific method works in investigating non-material phenomena. The challenge isn't in the wonderful and beautiful methods of science. The current challenge is in a priori commitment to materialism (a god and dogmatic religion of sorts).
    Give me an example of the scientific method working with non-material phenomena. A hypothetical example will do.

 

 
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