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  1. #1
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    PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

    There are various types of religions in existence with their own sacred books called bibles. The difference between the Judeo-Christian Bible and other religious books is that there is EVIDENCE showing it was inspired by Almighty God. For instance, the Bible contains almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled prophesies, some written centuries before the fulfillment of the prophesied events. Secular history and archeology bears this out. In addition, Bible writers had information that was not discovered by scientists and explorers until centuries later. Below are two such examples.


    Example #1:
    For a period of time in history, humans thought the earth was flat and that if one sailed too far out to sea, one was likely to sail off the earth. By the 15th Century when Christopher Columbus claimed he discovered the new world, most Europeans correctly theorized that the earth is a circle or sphere. However, it was not until after the first circumnavigation of the globe was led by Ferdinand Magellan in the year 1519 AD that this theory of a 3-Dimensional, circular earth was supported by fact. More than 2,000 years before Ferdinand Magellan attempted to sail around the globe, the prophet Isaiah did not merely theorize but stated that the earth is a circle. Isaiah was inspired by God to write:


    "{22} There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell, {28} Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding." (Isaiah 40:22 and 28)


    SIDE NOTE: Circles can be 2D (flat) or 3D (an ORB or a SPHERE)



    Example #2:
    Prior to the 17th century, none of the best scientific minds could explain what causes the earth to be positioned in a stable orbit. Then in 1687, Isaac Newton published his theory that gravitational forces are the explanation behind the earth's stability. (Gravity is also the reason why humans can move around without fear of toppling off the earth into space.) More than 3,000 years before Newton's existence, under divine inspiration Moses wrote that the earth hangs upon nothing (indicating gravity), as follows:

    "He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;" (Job 26:7)


    DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
    1.
    How could Isaiah have known that the earth is circular, considering that the writing of the book of Isaiah was completed in 732 B.C.E. and it wasn't until the 16th century AD/CE that Ferdinand Magellan proved the earth is a 3D circle when he circumnavigated the globe in 1519 AD/CE--2,251 years AFTER Isaiah wrote that the earth is a circle?

    http://didyouknow.org/sailing/
    http://www.rmg.co.uk/magellan


    2. How did Job know that the earth hangs upon nothing, indicating gravity, considering that the book of Job was completed in 1473 B.C.E. and it wasn't until 1687 AD/CE that Isaac Newton published his theory about gravitational forces--3,160 years AFTER Moses wrote that the earth hangs upon nothing?
    http://inventors.about.com/library/i...s/blnewton.htm


    3. Where did Isaiah and Moses get this info?
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

  2. #2
    Krogg
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    There are many false claims in your post, so it may take some time to get through all of them. The Bible is no different from any other holy book. It gets some things right, some things wrong, exactly as one would suspect.

    Example 1: A circle is flat, 2D, not 3D, so the Bible is wrong here. The Earth is in fact close to a sphere. There are many parts of the Bible which claim the Earth is flat.

    Example 2: "He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;" (Job 26:7) "

    As Newton showed, the Earth is not hanging at all, but orbitting the Sun, so the Bible is wrong again.

    You claimed that 2000 prophecies had been fulfilled, yet did not give even one example.
    Even if they had been fulfilled, as some are bound to have been, how does that prove a God?

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  4. #3
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    "{22} There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell, {28} Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding." (Isaiah 40:22 and 28)
    Your argument is clearly 2-dimensional

    "He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;" (Job 26:7)
    Don't worry, Atlas will catch it.
    Last edited by Abut77; March 16th, 2013 at 07:18 AM. Reason: Typo :/ + editing

  5. #4
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    There are many false claims in your post, so it may take some time to get through all of them. The Bible is no different from any other holy book. It gets some things right, some things wrong, exactly as one would suspect.
    ALTER2EGO to KROGG:
    The Bible has proven to be infallible. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. And I will prove it as this thread continues. Meanwhile please present Biblical quotations that you believe support your claim that the Bible is "wrong sometimes." Be sure and explain to the forum why you believe the quoted verses are wrong.



    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    Example 1: A circle is flat, 2D, not 3D, so the Bible is wrong here. The Earth is in fact close to a sphere. There are many parts of the Bible which claim the Earth is flat.
    ALTER2EGO to KROGG:
    You are wrong. As stated in my opening post, Circles are 2D as well as 3D. I know what I'm talking about. Below are websites where the word "circle" is defined as "orb" and "sphere"—both of which are 3D objects. Two of the websites even reference the Biblical quotation from Isaiah as part of their definition.


    Definition #4 on this website defines CIRCLE as follows.

    "a round body; a sphere; an orb"

    http://brainyquote.com/words/ci/circle144156.html



    Definition #4 on this website defines CIRCLE as follows, and even ties it in with what I quoted from Isaiah 40:22.

    "A round body; a sphere; an orb
    It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth."


    http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/circle



    Definition #13 on this website defines CIRCLE as follows, and also ties in the definition with the quotation from Isaiah 40:22.

    "a sphere or orb:
    the circle of the earth."


    http://www.definitions.net/definition/CIRCLE




    BTW: Nowhere does the Bible refer to the earth as being flat. But since you're making that claim, please quote scriptures from the Bible that indicate the earth is flat.
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

  6. #5
    Krogg
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    "The Bible has proven to be infallible. That's not an opinion. That's a fact."

    No, that's the claim, and as yet you have not proven it. That is how debate works. You challenge me to show that it's wrong sometimes, trying to shift the burden of proof onto me. I have already shown 2 falsehoods in my last post. However, you made the original claim, you back yours before making challenges, as I already have with mine.

    Here's some research on a circle for you:

    "cir·cle [sur-kuhl] Show IPA noun, verb, cir·cled, cir·cling.
    noun
    1. a closed plane curve consisting of all points at a given distance from a point within it called the center. Equation: x 2 + y 2 = r 2 .
    2. the portion of a plane bounded by such a curve.
    3. any circular or ringlike object, formation, or arrangement: a circle of dancers.
    4. a ring, circlet, or crown.
    5. the ring of a circus."

    The Earth is none of these shapes. Even if a circle could mean sphere or circle, then why did this Bible say circle, and not sphere? Sphere would have been more accurate. And how do you know it didn't mean the more common version of a circle? Are you interpreting it to fit your knowledge of the Earth and 3D perhaps? If so, then your knowledge comes from science, not the Bible. So, the Bible was wrong again.

    Several Bibles do indeed claim the Earth is flat several times, as anyone who's read them should know. Here are just a few of the examples:

    Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Psalm 104:5 and many more. Hope that helps.

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  8. #6
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    The ancient Hebrews (who wrote the old testament) generally saw the earth as flat, generally disk shaped, and not much like we know the earth to be today.

    And given what tools and knowledge they had available it wasn't all that bad an assumption. If you were to stand at a high point you would look out and see a circular horizon, the edge of which would be the sky or the sea depending on where you were. They of course knew you could travel farther than you could see but at no time did it look anything other than circular and flat.

    Lets take your passage from Isaiah. Its originally written in hebrew and the word they use in hebrew in no way refers to an orb or sphere.
    http://www.crivoice.org/circle.html
    The Hebrew word that is used in Isaiah 44:22 (חוּג, chug) does not at all imply a spherical earth. The root word only occurs in the Hebrew Bible once as a verb (Job 26:10). In nominal forms, the same root occurs four times, three as the noun חוּג (chug; Job 22:14, Prov 8:27, Isa 40:22), and once as the noun מְחוּגׇה (mechugah; Isa 44:13), referring to a "circle instrument," a device used to make a circle, what we call a compass.

    Isaiah 44:13 refers to this "circle instrument."

    Isa 44:13 The carpenter stretches a line, marks it out with a stylus, fashions it with planes, and marks it with a compass; he makes it in human form, with human beauty, to be set up in a shrine. [NIV]

    The verbal form of the word basically means "to make a circle" or "to scribe a circle."

    Job 26:10 He has described a circle on the face of the waters, at the boundary between light and darkness. [NRSV]

    So circle is a pretty good English translation since generally that is indeed what you draw with a compass. But to then try and imply an alternate English definition and claim that is what the original text of the bible implies is too far a degree of separation. There is no way that the authors of that passage were meaning to imply a sphere. The hebrew for ball is Dur. If they meant a sphere they could have used the word for it, instead they used the word for a flat circle or encirclement.

    When they talk about the sky/heavens they refer to it as a dome, or hemisphere, not a sphere outside the sphere of the earth. They also describe it as having windows through which water can fall aka rain. For example...

    Gen 1:7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.

    This lays out the overall view pretty well

    Prov 8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 8:28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 8:29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth . .

    Basically they saw the earth as a flat land mass risen up out of waters the edge of which was circular and separated from the heavens above, beyond which were further waters that could be made to rain down.

    The Book of Enoch 1 which is not part of western christian cannon, but is still treated as a holy christian book and is often quoted in the bible does concern itself with natural concerns and describes things in greater detail.

    I went to the extreme ends of the earth and saw there huge beasts, each different from the other and different birds (also) differing from one another in appearance, beauty, and voice. And to the east of those beasts, I saw the ultimate ends of the earth which rests on the heaven. And the gates of heaven were open, and I saw how the stars of heaven come out...(1 Enoch 33:1-2).

    “I went in the direction of the north, to the extreme ends of the earth, and there at the extreme end of the whole world I saw a great and glorious seat. There (also) I saw three open gates of heaven; when it blows cold, hail, frost, snow, dew, and rain, through each one of the (gates) the winds proceed in the northwesterly direction (1 Enoch 34:1-2).

    This is the first commandment of the luminaries: The sun is a luminary whose egress is an opening of heaven, which is (located) in the direction of the east, and whose ingress is (another) opening of heaven, (located) in the west. I saw six openings through which the sun rises and six openings through which it sets. The moon also rises and sets through the same openings, and they are guided by the stars; together with those whom they lead, they are six in the east and six in the west heaven. All of them (are arranged) one after another in a constant order. There are many windows (both) to the right and the left of these openings. First there goes out the great light whose name is the sun; its roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and it is totally filled with light and heat. The chariot in which it ascends is (driven by) the blowing wind. The sun sets in the sky (in the west) and returns by the northeast in order to go to the east; it is guided so that it shall reach the eastern gate and shine in the face of the sky (1 Enoch 72:2-5).

    ----

    So its pure fancy to say the Hebrews, the authors of the bible had any notion that the earth was a sphere which orbited around the sun along with other planets. What they reasoned was simply an extrapolation of what they could see with their own eyes in the world around them. That didn't make them fools, but it also didn't make them prophets or scientists or possessors of some future knowledge. They got the cosmological model wrong, just like many before and many after them. For what they had to work with, they didn't do so bad.


    As for hanging the earth on nothing. Well its about half correct. In truth the earth doesn't hang at all. It moves through space bound by the gravity of the sun.

    I'll introduce another cosmological problem in the bible which is that it describes the earth as immobile on many occasions

    1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
    Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
    Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
    Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
    Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

    But we have learned this is not the case, the earth is in fact in motion at all times, both spinning on an axis and orbiting the sun. It is in no way fixed or immobile. Again, this makes plenty of sense to ancient peoples who would not perceive themselves as moving, and would look at the sky and see that the heavens are moving, which is how they describe the sun and moon operating. You don't have to be foolish to be wrong, you just need limited information.

    The bible is not a natural science book. It is a book about morality, the supernatural, and spiritual affairs. It tells you how to live a holy life, not how the universe operates.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  10. #7
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    "The Bible has proven to be infallible. That's not an opinion. That's a fact."

    No, that's the claim, and as yet you have not proven it. That is how debate works. You challenge me to show that it's wrong sometimes, trying to shift the burden of proof onto me. I have already shown 2 falsehoods in my last post. However, you made the original claim, you back yours before making challenges, as I already have with mine.


    Several Bibles do indeed claim the Earth is flat several times, as anyone who's read them should know. Here are just a few of the examples:

    Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Psalm 104:5 and many more. Hope that helps.
    ALTER2EGO to KROGG:
    You didn't "show" anything. Showing something requires that you present documentary evidence to back up your assertions. That's not what you did. You simply told the forum your personal opinion, as follows:


    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    There are many false claims in your post, so it may take some time to get through all of them. The Bible is no different from any other holy book. It gets some things right, some things wrong, exactly as one would suspect.

    Example 1: A circle is flat, 2D, not 3D, so the Bible is wrong here. The Earth is in fact close to a sphere. There are many parts of the Bible which claim the Earth is flat.

    Example 2: "He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;" (Job 26:7) "

    As Newton showed, the Earth is not hanging at all, but orbitting the Sun, so the Bible is wrong again.

    You claimed that 2000 prophecies had been fulfilled, yet did not give even one example.
    Even if they had been fulfilled, as some are bound to have been, how does that prove a God?
    Notice that nothing you said above is accompanied by documentary evidence. It's all about what you opine. The only way you can "show" what you claim are falsehoods in the Bible is by quoting scriptures and then pointing out the words within the quote verses which, in your opinion, are proof of the falsehoods. When do you intend to do that?
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

  11. #8
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    As stated in my opening post, Circles are 2D as well as 3D. I know what I'm talking about. Below are websites where the word "circle" is defined as "orb" and "sphere"—both of which are 3D objects.
    But the issue isn't how we define a "circle" in 20th century English, but what the writers of the bible meant when they say said "circle". So if it's to be proven that the bible said the world is a sphere, that means that there's proof that when the bible said "circle" in that instance, it definitely meant a sphere as opposed to some other kind of circle.

    So do you have that proof? If not, then you can't use the bible's use of the word "circle" as proof that the bible had knowledge that the world was a sphere.

  12. #9
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    No, that's the claim, and as yet you have not proven it. That is how debate works. You challenge me to show that it's wrong sometimes, trying to shift the burden of proof onto me. I have already shown 2 falsehoods in my last post. However, you made the original claim, you back yours before making challenges, as I already have with mine.

    Several Bibles do indeed claim the Earth is flat several times, as anyone who's read them should know. Here are just a few of the examples:

    Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Psalm 104:5 and many more. Hope that helps.
    ALTER2EGO to KROGG:
    I didn't merely make claims in my OP. I backed up my claims by quoting scriptures and by presenting historical facts.

    You are the one trying to rebut my OP; remember? In my opening post, I stated that the Bible writers knew things that it took centuries for others to discover. I gave examples of this by quoting from the book of Job where Moses, under inspiration of Jehovah, gave a viewpoint description of how earth appears to someone who is ABOVE it. To someone above, the earth seems to be floating in mid-air with no visible support—indicating invisible gravity, as follows.


    "He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;" (Job 26:7)


    I then stated in my OP that it was not until centuries later that Isaac Newton discovered the Law of Gravity. Likewise, I stated in my OP that it was not until centuries after the Prophet Isaiah gave a viewpoint description, in which he wrote that the earth is circular, that humans proved it is a 3D circle or spherical.


    "There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell," (Isaiah 40:22)


    You then showed up making the following fallacious claims:

    1. "A circle is flat, 2D, not 3D"
    2. "The Bible gets some things wrong"
    3. The Bible repeatedly describes the earth as flat
    4. "As Newton showed, the Earth is not hanging at all, but orbitting the Sun."


    All four of your points listed above are erroneous. For Point 1, you've already been debunked by the three dictionaries I presented at Post 4. All three dictionaries indicate circles are 2D as well as 3D.

    I will now debunk your statement at Point 4 where you said: "As Newton showed, the Earth is not hanging at all, but orbitting the Sun." That statement is false. Newton is responsible for the Law of Gravity, which is what I stated in my OP. It was Galileo and Copernicus who theorized that earth is revolving around the sun. I didn't say anything in my OP about earth revolving around the sun. I quoted (Job 26:7) that says the earth appears to be hanging upon nothing (indicating invisible gravity--which is why I mentioned Isaac Newton).



    Meanwhile, you've yet to show the forum where the Bible is "sometimes wrong" and where the Bible says the earth is flat (Point #2 and Point #3). I read all four verses that you provided in your recent post, but I don't see anything resembling the description of a flat earth. So if you don't mind, the forum would like for you to show us where you are seeing the description of a flat earth in those verses. Show it to us by quoting the verses and bolding the words where you are seeing "flat earth." In case you didn't notice, I bolded the words in the verses I quoted so that others could see where I was drawing my conclusions from.
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

  13. #10
    Krogg
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    "I didn't merely make claims in my OP. I backed up my claims by quoting scriptures and by presenting historical facts."

    No, you have yet to do this. See how I back my claims up with evidence and reasoning? It's dishonest to pretend I didn't.

    "You are the one trying to rebut my OP; remember?"

    You are again trying to sidestep your responsibility. The burden of proof is entirely on you as you have made the claim, not on anyone else. If you can't back up your claims, you shouldn't have made them.

    "In my opening post, I stated that the Bible writers knew things that it took centuries for others to discover."

    Indeed you stated this. There is no need to repeat your statement, as we can all read it, and I have already rebutted it. The next step is for you to prove them. You are stalling, and it's very telling. Moreover, you have yet to demonstrate how even if the Bible does get some things right, which it certainly does how this would require inspiration by a god. Please respond to this point, rather than sidestepping.

    You correctly restated my points as follows:
    "You then showed up making the following fallacious claims:

    1. "A circle is flat, 2D, not 3D". This is true, check the dictionary. I followed your links and they confirm this.
    2. "The Bible gets some things wrong" I demonstrated this with 4 examples. There are many 1000s more, but try to deal with these first. I'll spell one out below for you.
    3. The Bible repeatedly describes the earth as flat. I have also demonstrated this below, as in 2)
    4. "As Newton showed, the Earth is not hanging at all, but orbitting the Sun." This is true, Newton did demonstrate this, and the Earth does orbit the Sun. This is established scientific fact. Your attempted debunk of this actually confirms my original point.

    Each one of these is true, as I have demonstrated. So instead of trying to prove me wrong, try to back up your own statements. If you can find anything I've said that isn't true, then you'll have to demonstrate this. Simply saying they're wrong, just won't do I'm afraid.

    "Meanwhile, you've yet to show the forum where the Bible is "sometimes wrong" and where the Bible says the earth is flat (Point #2 and Point #3)."

    No, I did this in my last post, as the forum can all read. You do not speak for the forum, and it is dishonest of you to talk as though you do. You should have said that that's what you personally wanted, not the forum. Notice no one has agreed with you. You are in minority of one so far. As you made the original post, I suspect the forum would like for you to back up your points. Reread your original statement to remind yourself.

    So, the challenge still stands. Can you back up your points? Can you prove the Bible really meant 3D for example?

    ---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------

    You have accidentally responded twice to the same post I made, which rather proves my point that you're simply typing, not thinking about what you type. Try to just make one good post. Try to research what you post and check it for logic. You have also ignored a lot of points made in this forum, again simply challenging you to back up what you say- which is a very reasonable request. So, instead of trying to turn the challenge round on others, when do you intend to do that?

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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    "I didn't merely make claims in my OP. I backed up my claims by quoting scriptures and by presenting historical facts."

    No, you have yet to do this. See how I back my claims up with evidence and reasoning? It's dishonest to pretend I didn't.
    ALTER2EGO to KROGG:
    Which evidence are you referring to? You made fallacious statements about circles always being 2D and that it was Isaac Newton who theorized that the earth revolves around the sun, when in reality, it was Galileo and Copernicus that came up with the theory that earth revolves around the sun. Then in an attempt at proving that the Bible is fallible, you presented four verses of scriptures (Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Psalm 104:5 ), neither of which indicates the earth is flat. I asked you to quote the verses and show the forum where you are seeing "flat" earth. You are now evading that request.



    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    "You are the one trying to rebut my OP; remember?"

    You are again trying to sidestep your responsibility. The burden of proof is entirely on you as you have made the claim, not on anyone else. If you can't back up your claims, you shouldn't have made them.
    ALTER2EGO to KROGG:
    I fulfilled my responsibility by giving scriptures in my OP, and backing them up with historical facts. More than 3,000 years after Moses gave a viewpoint description in the book of Job that the earth appears to be hanging upon nothing (indicating invisible gravity), Isaac Newton came up with the Law of Gravity.


    "He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;" (Job 26:7)


    More than 2,000 years after the Prophet Isaiah presented a viewpoint description that earth appears like a circle to one who is above it, humans finally proved that the earth is a circle when Ferdinand Magellan and others circumnavigated earth.


    "{22} There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell, {28} Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding." (Isaiah 40:22 and 28)
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

  16. #12
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    I fulfilled my responsibility by giving scriptures in my OP, and backing them up with historical facts. More than 3,000 years after Moses gave a viewpoint description in the book of Job that the earth appears to be hanging upon nothing (indicating invisible gravity), Isaac Newton came up with the Law of Gravity.
    If gravity is an "invisible string" that the Earth is hanging up, the "string" is not attached to nothing. The "string" is attached to the sun so the Earth would be hanging from the sun.

    And either way, it is certain a particular interpretation of that text that leads you to say it's about gravity. It is not proven that it is referring to gravity and therefore it is not proof that the bible had knowledge of gravity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    More than 2,000 years after the Prophet Isaiah presented a viewpoint description that earth appears like a circle to one who is above it, humans finally proved that the earth is a circle when Ferdinand Magellan and others circumnavigated earth.
    And it could have been figured out, or just guessed that, the Earth was round prior to proof that the Earth was round?

  17. #13
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    Each one of these is true, as I have demonstrated. So instead of trying to prove me wrong, try to back up your own statements. If you can find anything I've said that isn't true, then you'll have to demonstrate this. Simply saying they're wrong, just won't do I'm afraid.
    ALTER2EGO to KROGG:
    You are in denial with that statement that, to quote you: "If you can find anything I've said that isn't true, then you'll have to demonstrate this." I debunked your claim that circles are only 2D as well as your false claim that Newton was the one who came up with the theory of earth revolving around the sun. So exactly what is it that you expect me to demonstrate? The fact that you remain in denial? You're doing a good enough job of demonstrating that on your own.



    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    You correctly restated my points as follows:
    "You then showed up making the following fallacious claims:

    1. "A circle is flat, 2D, not 3D". This is true, check the dictionary. I followed your links and they confirm this.
    2. "The Bible gets some things wrong" I demonstrated this with 4 examples. There are many 1000s more, but try to deal with these first. I'll spell one out below for you.
    3. The Bible repeatedly describes the earth as flat. I have also demonstrated this below, as in 2)
    4. "As Newton showed, the Earth is not hanging at all, but orbitting the Sun." This is true, Newton did demonstrate this, and the Earth does orbit the Sun. This is established scientific fact. Your attempted debunk of this actually confirms my original point.
    ALTER2EGO to KROGG:
    You followed the links, and you saw that there are several definitions for circle at each of the websites I provided at Post 4. Among the various definitions at each of the websites, a circle is described as a 2D object as well as a 3D object ("orb" or "sphere"). You've chosen to ignore the definition at each of the websites where it clearly says "orb" and "sphere," including the two definitions that make reference to the words in Isaiah 40:22. So at this point, you are arguing your opinion, and your opinion is that all circles can only be 2D and are never 3D objects.

    FYI: I never argue opinions with people.
    "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    You are in denial with that statement that, to quote you: "If you can find anything I've said that isn't true, then you'll have to demonstrate this." I debunked your claim that circles are only 2D
    Alter, you utterly ignored the arguments regarding the original Hebrew text and the meaning of the word that was translated to be circle. Then you use one of many English definitions, and not the most common one, as "proof" that the authors of the bible who never spoke English or even knew it existed, must have meant a sphere.

    Ignoring arguments does not defeat them. It only makes you look like you are running away from the fight. Do you have any response at all for the issue of the meaning of the Hebrew text?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Well, a few things. The ancient near east regarded the earth to be circular. This is found in nearly all cultures, so there is nothing new here with that regard. And it is true that this is a reference to a circular earth. But not for the reasons offered in the op. The Hebrew word here being used is specific. It is חוּג. Had the Hebrews wanted to make a relevant geographical claim or comparison to a spherical earth, they probably would have used the Hebrew word for ball which more closely represents the concept of the sphere, (dūr; ball;circle) which is found in Isa 22:18 (although, it should be pointed out that the word can also simply mean "round").

    So in what sense does "circle" apply? Well, it's referring to the "vault of the earth" here (see below sources). Specifically, the word choice is made because "the circle simply reflects the curvature of the horizon (thus, disk-shaped)."

    Consider:

    40:22. circle of the earth. The picture of the universe described here is the common cosmological view of the ancient Near East. The sky was a dome that arched over the disk of the earth, which sat on top of a primeval ocean. Under the ocean was the netherworld, virtually a mirror image of the space above the earth. Thus, the entire universe was an enormous sphere, cut in the center by the earth. Nevertheless, here it is the earth itself that is described as circular. In Babylonian literature Shamash is praised as the one who suspends from the heavens the circle of the lands. Likewise, in a prayer to Shamash and Adad Adad causes it to rain on the circle of the earth. The circle simply reflects the curvature of the horizon (thus, disk-shaped) rather than a sphere (for which Hebrew uses another word). In the ancient world the earth was consistently regarded as being circular.

    Matthews, V. H., Chavalas, M. W., & Walton, J. H. (2000). The IVP Bible background commentary: Old Testament (electronic ed.) (Is 40:22). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.


    Isaiah 40:22 is not claiming that the earth is circular, flat, or spherical. So any claim that it is, is false. And any claim that what the Bible means in as far as the shape of the earth goes, would also be false since that verse is not making a claim about the geometric shape of the earth at all. It's referring to, as Sig said, what is around it. It refers to the idea that there is a circular "vault" above the earth, the horizon. To put it in a more literal translation...it means "vault of heavens." The Hebrew word used here is חוּג

    In other words, the verse could be read as follows: "He who is enthroned above the vault of the earth, and its inhabitants resemble grasshoppers; who has spread out the heavens like gauze, and stretched them out like a tent-roof to dwell in." (Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Vol. 7: Commentary on the Old Testament (399). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson)

    In addition, any claim that חוּג cannot or does not refer to a spherical shape is also incorrect. The op's translation is not wrong because the word cannot mean 'spherical' but rather because the op is mistakenly applying the word itself. It confuses the subject of the phrase.

    The circle of the earth. Or rather, above (עַל ăl) the circle of the earth. The word rendered ‘circle’ (חוּג) denotes a circle, sphere, or arch; and is applied to the arch or vault of the heavens, in Prov. 8:27; Job 22:14. The phrase ‘circle,’ or ‘circuit of the earth,’ here seems to be used in the same sense as the phrase orbis terrarum by the Latins; not as denoting a sphere, or not as implying that the earth was a globe, but that it was an extended plain surrounded by oceans and mighty waters. The globular form of the earth was then unknown; and the idea is, that God sat above this extended circuit, or circle; and that the vast earth was beneath his feet.
    Barnes, A. (1851). Notes on the Old Testament: Isaiah, Volume 2 (70). London: Blackie & Son.

    Also consider:

    ܚܽܘܓܬܳܐ (ḥugto), חוּגְתָּא, circle, vault of heavens) Qal Pf. חֹק חָג על־פני מים Jb 26:10 (cf. Pr 8:27), hath drawn as circle bound, of horizon-line.
    †חוּג S2328, 2329 TWOT615, 615a GK2552, 2553 n.[m.] vault, horizon; of the heavens, sea and earth חוּג שׁמים התהלך Jb 22:14; בְּחֻקֿוֹ חוּג על־פני תהום Pr 8:27 (cf. חקק on p. 349a); חוּג הארץ הישֵׁב עַל־ Is 40:22.
    Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (2000). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (electronic ed.) (295). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems.


    and
    2553 II. חוּג (ḥûḡ): n.[masc.]; ≡ Str 2329; TWOT 615a—1. LN 1.5–1.16 vault, i.e., a vast celestial domed or circular throne room in the sky (Job 22:14; Isa 40:22+), see also domain LN 7.26–7.53; 2. LN 80.5–80.7 horizon of the ocean, i.e., an outer limit of a large body of water (Pr 8:27+), see also domain LN 1.69–1.78
    Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.).

    and

    40:22 the circle of the earth. Either the bowl-like sky over the earth (Job 22:14) or the outer horizon encircling the earth (Job 26:10).

    Crossway Bibles. (2008). The ESV Study Bible (1311). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

    and

    The circle of the earth. Or rather, above (עַל ăl) the circle of the earth. The word rendered ‘circle’ (חוּג) denotes a circle, sphere, or arch; and is applied to the arch or vault of the heavens, in Prov. 8:27; Job 22:14. The phrase ‘circle,’ or ‘circuit of the earth,’ here seems to be used in the same sense as the phrase orbis terrarum by the Latins; not as denoting a sphere, or not as implying that the earth was a globe, but that it was an extended plain surrounded by oceans and mighty waters. The globular form of the earth was then unknown; and the idea is, that God sat above this extended circuit, or circle; and that the vast earth was beneath his feet.
    Barnes, A. (1851). Notes on the Old Testament: Isaiah, Volume 2 (70). London: Blackie & Son.

    and

    40:22 circle of the earth Likely refers to the dome or firmament of Gen 1:6–7. The poetic reference also occurs in Job 22:14 and Prov 8:27 with reference to God’s creative power.
    Barry, J. D., Grigoni, M. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Is 40:22).

    and (for those with the proper exegetical and language resources):


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lastly, this is the ancient Hebrew conception of the universe that should explain the above better. ‎The ancient Israelites divided the world into Heaven, Earth, Sea, and the Underworld:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm not going to address the other points made in the op. I'd just recommend that both proper knowledge and sources be used when making claims regarding scripture (for or against) or any ancient language and/or cultural concept and that when one does not possess either, that it ought to be a subject of discussion and exploration rather than a dogmatic destination or conclusion.

    Lastly, that the ancient world, including the Israelites, God's people, were mistaken about the nature of the universe and all its complexities in no way diminishes the value or knowledge expressed in scripture. This particular passage is not a literal, geographical claim about nature. The Bible is not nor was ever intended to teach science or instruct an ancient people of the wonders of nature that they could not possibly understand or do anything with (or about). It's language is varied (literal, metaphorical, legal, poetic, prophetic, etc...) and it is important to understand language use when making claims or observations about text. This particular passage for example is not telling us anything about the physical world (instructing us on science), it is instead comforting Israel and reassuring them that God is still with them. It's a prophetic promise (as almost all of Isaiah is) that Israel will receive God's blessing.

    It's important to a) not interject our own preconceived ideas into particular verses and instead b) take the passage as a whole to understand what is written within, and this often means c) understanding the history and language when particular phrasing is not so obvious.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; March 23rd, 2013 at 08:44 AM.
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  21. #16
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    It's as if you're not reading my posts. Why do you keep double posting? Are you not thinking at all?

    "Which evidence are you referring to?" The evidence I just presented. Please read what I wrote.

    "You made fallacious statements about circles always being 2D and that it was Isaac Newton who theorized that the earth revolves around the sun"

    I did not make either of these claims. Anyone can check my posts, and see that I did not. It's very telling you can't provide a quote from me to back this up. Now, did you lie, or did you just read what you wanted to? Either way, you should apologise. Misrepresenting someone is wrong, and unproductive in debates.

    As I have told you before, if you can find a single false statement I've made, then say what it is and demonstrate that it's wrong.

    Now, for about the 4th time, you made the claim, the responsibility is yours to back it up. I'll ask yet again, can you prove the Bible really meant 3D for example?

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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    I don't see anything significant in the above passages.

    Even if we were to accept that the reference in Isaiah was to the shape of the Earth and (incorrectly) that the term for sphere is the same as that for circle, a belief that the Earth is circular does not signify special knowledge. It's perfectly natural to observe the circular shape of the horizon. What's more interesting is that God is supposedly dwelling above the Earth. Just where is that? Where can there be an "above" when it comes to a spherical object? Is that above the Northern Hemisphere or the Southern? Makes no sense. Quite simply, there's nothing spectacular in this particular verse.

    As for the passage from Job, it is spectacularly incorrect. The Earth is not suspended and it's certainly not suspended above nothing. There's simply no truth in the claim. The Earth is traveling through space at tremendous speeds and in a complex number of directions. It revolves around the Sun and, along with it, around the centre of the galaxy.

    The Bible had plenty of opportunities to truly amaze us with divine knowledge. It could have told us about the Earth's motion around the Sun and around the galaxy's centre. IT could have told us that it's a sphere. It could have said that the Universe is expanding and has been, in an explosion that started from a very small singularity. The Bible has done none of that. There's simply nothing in the text that ought to lead any reasonable reader to conclude that the text is divinely inspired. Instead, it has all the markings of ancient mythology.
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

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  24. #18
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    As I have told you before, if you can find a single false statement I've made, then say what it is and demonstrate that it's wrong.
    Well, I've found some. You claimed that the Bible got it wrong by claiming that the earth was a circle. But that isn't what the Bible is doing at all here Krogg. Both Sig and I pointed this out in our posts (and you gave me a "Like" for that post...which btw, thank you). You also presented 3 examples of the Bible claiming the earth was flat. None of those verses do any such thing.

    So, before I respond directly to those verses and explain them, I thought it best to allow you to defend that position with support. I know you prefer it when arguments are supported. You insisted that Alter2Ego do so, and you did provide support for your arguments as well (by posting verses and definitions of "circle"). So I have confidence that you will provide support that the verses say what you say they mean.

    Also, I'm hoping you are not getting your information from popular (non-academic) sources like Skeptic's Bible, Answering-Christianity (the author of which, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of facts in history by describing what he believed was Columbus' journey) or something similar (neither of whom have any academic standing whatsoever and are created by laymen no different than anyone on this site). Although such sources are extremely easy for me to respond to as they take little to no time at all to refute (which is why sometimes I enjoy it when such sites are used), I'd much rather prefer that people here at ODN are predisposed to use credible sources as I believe the stronger the source, the less prone to error we all are.

    ---------- Post added at 09:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 AM ----------

    In addition, and this is to those who say that the Bible teaches advanced science (that which was beyond the understanding of the ancient world) such as making direct claims that the earth was spherical or the astronomical model of heliocentrism and to those who say that the Bible, if truly divine would or should teach such things...both are plainly incorrect.

    To suggest that God did or should have guided the Biblical authors to write in such a way that they spoke better than they knew about future scientific findings is unmerited. The Bible was not, is not, nor ever will be intended to be a science book or instruction/teaching manual on how to understand the natural world. It's absurd to believe, IMO, that the Bible does or should contain up-to-date scientific information that was supernaturally revealed by God thousands of years before humans discovered it. It doesn't, nor should we expect it to. God spoke to mankind in mankind's language, as man understood the world and universe at the time*. God did not reveal the world to ancient man in language and concepts used in the 21st century or in Western cultural understandings. Not only is there no merit to such a position, it's patently wrong-headed and I challenge anyone to defend such a position.

    The point of scripture as a whole, or the Bible, is the story that reveals how God prepared the way (through Israel) then sent Jesus to be man's example and salvation. Nothing more. To suggest that the Bible is or should be (if it were divinely inspired) a science book exposes the lack of credibility and/or knowledge of those who would make such a claim. IMO, it is no different than someone reading a Maytag refrigerator manual and claiming it reveals the secret to life and the hereafter.




    * This is not to say that God used misleading or incorrect language to teach a falsity merely because the ancient world already believed that falsity. The Bible for example, does not teach that the earth is flat...and for those who claim otherwise, they have the burden to support it. I'm already aware of the verses used as their "support" and it's both interesting and frustrating to me, that seemingly reasonable people would so horribly rip these verses from their surrounding context and distort their meaning, just to reinforce their own biases on the matter.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; March 23rd, 2013 at 05:59 PM.
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  26. #19
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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Hi Apokalupsis, yes, I liked your post because it was well written and supported what I said. I'm not totally sure where you think we disagree here. If you can find anywhere I've made an error, I'm all ears, but I also don't want to distract from the original posters burden of proof. I did provide several examples, which could be interpreted as meaning the Earth was flat, certainly with more validity than the original post. I get my information from a variety of sources, including several bibles, since you ask. None of us can be sure we're not affected by our own biases. My point here is that the bibles are so vague, there are so many versions of them, and indeed the original poster managed to find 15 mostly contradictory definitions and was willing to choose any that fitted current science- they can be interpreted with retrospect to mean almost anything. The original claim was that the bible is divinely inspired, and the ball is still very much in the court of those making that claim.

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    Re: PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God

    Quote Originally Posted by Krogg View Post
    I'm not totally sure where you think we disagree here. If you can find anywhere I've made an error, I'm all ears
    Well...not sure how you missed it, but I thought I was pretty clear.

    I'll copy for convenience:

    Apok: "You claimed that the Bible got it wrong by claiming that the earth was a circle. But that isn't what the Bible is doing at all here Krogg. Both Sig and I pointed this out in our posts. You also presented 3 examples of the Bible claiming the earth was flat. None of those verses do any such thing."


    which could be interpreted as meaning the Earth was flat
    Only by those in error, use bad reasoning, or are ignorant of the text, language, and history. There's a difference between these 2 statements that you are not disinguishing it seems:

    "It is possible that someone could interpret X verse in a particular way."

    vs

    "It is reasonable that X verse means Y."

    Your statement, the former, is practically meaningless since it is possible for anyone to do anything that they have the potential to do. That's the very definition of potential after all. Just because someone can, doesn't mean that a) it's correct or b) they should.

    Your statement is the same as saying "It's possible that someone believes 2+2=103,215 in base 10 math."

    Yes...of course it's possible that someone out there got it completely wrong. We don't care about whether it's possible for someone to make a mistake, it is a given that someone can make a mistake. What we are evaluating is not human nature, but rather the truth statement itself.

    The truth statement in question would be "Does 2+2 equal 103,215 in base 10?"

    The answer is no.

    Likewise, the truth statement in question re: the op, is:

    "Does the Bible teach that the Earth is flat?"

    The answer is no.

    So...if you believe yes, then you have some work to do. You need to actually support your case there.

    Just because the op got it wrong by claiming that the Bible teaches the earth is a sphere, it does not mean that it is right that the Bible teaches the earth is flat. Both claims...are incorrect. The Bible does neither.

    The op claimed the former, you claimed the latter. Both of you, are in error. You are correct in your objection to what he claimed the Bible says, but incorrect in what you claim the Bible says. Both of you made claims of what the Bible says, and both of you are mistaken (as both Sig and I have pointed out by providing the actual meaning and thus, what the Bible actually says).

    I get my information from a variety of sources, including several bibles,
    Which ones told you that the verses contained w/i them teach the Bible is flat? I'm unaware of any Bible that does but am always interested in a new translation on the market.

    However, the types of sources I was referring to were academics, scholars, historians, language experts, the original languages themselves, commentaries, lexicons, language dictionaries, etc...The sources actual students and actual experts use to come to a conclusion. When doing an actual study, we do not rely on laymen, bloggers (or forum users who post as a hobby or entertainment), we do not rely on Wikipedia (which is written and edited by bloggers just like you and I), etc... Sources matter. To use a bad source and hang your argument on that source, well, it always results in a very weak argument at best, but usually a very bad argument in the end.


    None of us can be sure we're not affected by our own biases.
    None of us are completely bias free. The issue is not "Are we free of all biases?" Instead, the issue is "Are we thinking critically, objectively, despite our biases?"

    My point here is that the bibles are so vague, there are so many versions of them,
    Then your point is incorrect because you have not demonstrated this to be the case in this thread. Both Sig and I point out the errors of such a view by explaining what is actually meant. Remember, just because YOU may not understand something does not necessarily mean that what it is you do not understand, is not understandable. It merely means that right now, with the current knowledge you possess, you do not understand it.

    In order for you to make the claim that the Bible is vague, then you would need to have sufficient knowledge and support that it is the case. You just haven't provided either here and that is what I was trying to get you to do last post. You need to support your assertions.

    and indeed the original poster managed to find 15 mostly contradictory definitions and was willing to choose any that fitted current science- they can be interpreted with retrospect to mean almost anything.
    See above re: potential vs actuality.

    The original claim was that the bible is divinely inspired, and the ball is still very much in the court of those making that claim.
    That the op has thus far failed to demonstrate his conclusion in no way absolves us of our responsibility to support our arguments.
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