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  1. #1
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    "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    As police closed in on the boat he was hiding in, suspected Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev scribbled a chilling note to police.

    On the side of the cabin of the boat, the Tsarnaev reportedly wrote: “When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims.” The writings were first reported by CBS News.

    Tsarnaev also wrote that the bombings, which tore through the iconic Boston Marathon on April 15, were retribution for U.S. military action in Afghanistan and Iraq, CBS reported. He said the victims of the Boston bombing were collateral damage just as many Muslims have been innocent casualties of American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...n-attack-musli

    Should this generally be the prism through which the United States conducts foreign affairs? Should we view Islamic countries as a group, and act accordingly? The experiences of the nation of Israel (generally) seem to support such a position, as do (generally) the reactions around the Islamic world after 9/11 and other more recent events.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Should we conduct foreign affairs based on the writings of a 19 year old terrorist? I'd say no.

    Should we take some lessons from it? Sure.

    Whatever we do is going to have a perceived value by others. If you attack members of a group then other members of the group, even if they were not directly targeted will feel as if they were also attacked. And in retaliation it is not unusual to shift to easier targets even if they were not directly responsible.

    Also, some young people do some outrageously dumb stuff for monumentally naive and stupid reasons.

    That said, I don't think any of this is news to us. Nor is it news that Islamic terrorists and their supporters are a serious threat to peace.
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  3. #3
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    From the lack of response, there seems to be no expectation that Muslims should distance themselves from attacks made by the west on other Muslims. The will perceive it as an attack on them as a group. Perhaps we should just expect that as human nature. An attack on one Muslim is an attack on all Muslims. We should accept that premise.

    Then why should we not hold Muslims collectively responsible when some of them attack us? If they are reasonably expected to act as a group, why should we not hold Muslims as a group responsible for attacks made in the name of Islam?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #4
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    From the lack of response, there seems to be no expectation that Muslims should distance themselves from attacks made by the west on other Muslims. The will perceive it as an attack on them as a group. Perhaps we should just expect that as human nature. An attack on one Muslim is an attack on all Muslims. We should accept that premise.

    Then why should we not hold Muslims collectively responsible when some of them attack us? If they are reasonably expected to act as a group, why should we not hold Muslims as a group responsible for attacks made in the name of Islam?
    I think we would need a greater sampling than just one 19 year old kid. Also, you are talking about extremists. Just because an extremist feels this way about all Muslims doesn't mean all Muslims feel this way about extremists. That said, if American's started intentionally killing non extremist Muslims by the thousands then other non extremist Muslims no doubt would start fighting back. Why wouldn't they?

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  6. #5
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    From the lack of response, there seems to be no expectation that Muslims should distance themselves from attacks made by the west on other Muslims. The will perceive it as an attack on them as a group. Perhaps we should just expect that as human nature. An attack on one Muslim is an attack on all Muslims. We should accept that premise.
    No, we should expect that from assholes. I have a Muslim, this minute sitting two cubes down. Nice guy. He doesn't feel like an attack on terrorists is an attack on him. He does feel that slanders against Islam as a whole is an attack on him and he'd be right since he's a Muslim. He is a reasonable person. There are lots of them out there. They guy who blew up people running a race with a pressure cooker is not a reasonable person. He's a crackpot.
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  8. #6
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    From the lack of response, there seems to be no expectation that Muslims should distance themselves from attacks made by the west on other Muslims. The will perceive it as an attack on them as a group. Perhaps we should just expect that as human nature. An attack on one Muslim is an attack on all Muslims. We should accept that premise.
    If we accepted that premise, then we would be left with only two options: Surrender to Islam, or destroy it completely.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  9. #7
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by libre View Post
    Also, you are talking about extremists.
    No, I'm talking about Islam's "Ummah", "the collective community of Islamic peoples": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah

    Quote Originally Posted by libre View Post
    Just because an extremist feels this way about all Muslims doesn't mean all Muslims feel this way about extremists.
    And I never claimed they do. But Muslims also don't feel any responsility for the terrorists their religion creates, mostly because we idiots in the west won't stand up and say, unequivocally, that Islam is not a religion of peace, but one of oppression and violence.

    ---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    If we accepted that premise, then we would be left with only two options: Surrender to Islam, or destroy it completely.
    Elaborate. Why are those the only two choices? Why can we not coexist with the "peaceful religion of Islam"?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #8
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Elaborate. Why are those the only two choices? Why can we not coexist with the "peaceful religion of Islam"?
    The concept of a peaceful Islam is pure sophistry. At least it is with the kind that would say with definite conviction that "An attack on one Muslim, is an attack on all Muslims." It is not possible to coexist peacefully with a group of people that hold such violent points of view.
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  11. #9
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    The concept of a peaceful Islam is pure sophistry.
    If history is any indication so is peaceful chistianity, or any religion for that matter. Heck peaceful humanity is out the window as well.

    At least it is with the kind that would say with definite conviction that "An attack on one Muslim, is an attack on all Muslims." It is not possible to coexist peacefully with a group of people that hold such violent points of view.
    Technically it is, you could not attack them.
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  13. #10
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And I never claimed they do. But Muslims also don't feel any responsility for the terrorists their religion creates, mostly because we idiots in the west won't stand up and say, unequivocally, that Islam is not a religion of peace, but one of oppression and violence.[COLOR="Silver"]
    It sounds to me like that is exactly what you are saying. Are you not putting forward the notion that in the eyes of all Muslims an attack on one Muslim is an attack on all Muslims? Also, are you not suggesting that they would also take that notion serious enough that it would justify us basically treating all Muslims as enemy combatants? Or am I misunderstanding your point?

    As for Muslims not feeling any responsibility for the terrorists their religion creates... There have been some nasty things done in Christianity's name also. There are probably extremists in most religions. I think the only factor that is different between them is the people that practice the religions. There are a LOT of Muslims in the US. About 2.5 million. If your theory had even an ounce of truth behind it then don't you think we would be having bombings and stuff in your cities every other hour?

    Yet, we don't have that many bombings. That's because we don't have that many extremists in our country. So, why so few here and so many in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc? Have you ever visited any of these places? Yes, there are some upper class people in some of these places. However, there is a LOT more lower class. And their lower class don't live much better than our homeless do... and they do it in a lot worse environment. On top of that the lower class has virtually no formal education. You can't ask for a better breeding ground for recruiting members for extremist organizations.

  14. #11
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If history is any indication so is peaceful chistianity, or any religion for that matter. Heck peaceful humanity is out the window as well.
    I wasn't referring to Islam as a whole. It would be absurd to paint all followers of any faith in such a manner. I am specifically speaking about the so-called "Radical Islamic" sect that would hold the view of "An attack on one Muslim, is an attack on all Muslims" and then proceed to engage in violence when a Muslim is negatively impacted in some manner in another part of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Technically it is, you could not attack them.
    Would simply not attacking Nazis allow you to co-exist peacefully with them? Evil and violent people do not respect peace, they do not seek it, they do not want it. Radical Islam doesnt want to co-exist peacefully. They want to conquer and convert or kill. You could choose not to provoke, but they will find a reason, much like Hitler found a reason to invade Poland.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  15. #12
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by libre View Post
    Are you not putting forward the notion that in the eyes of all Muslims an attack on one Muslim is an attack on all Muslims?
    No, I have specifically said that this is generally true. I never suggested it is universal.


    Quote Originally Posted by libre View Post
    Also, are you not suggesting that they would also take that notion serious enough that it would justify us basically treating all Muslims as enemy combatants?
    When did I use the phrase "enemy combatants", or anything similar? How does holding people collectively responsible require violence?

    Quote Originally Posted by libre View Post
    As for Muslims not feeling any responsibility for the terrorists their religion creates... red herring, red herring, red herring).
    Stay focused. I am saying that the Muslims see themselves as a nation across the world, in their word an "ummah". Their collective actions against Israel demonstrate this. Their collective repudiation of the west demonstrate this. Even though there are divisions between muslims, they consider themselves a superior nation created by Allah.

    You mentioned U.S. Muslims. A pew poll showed that most Muslim citizens of the U.S. identify themselves as MUSLIMS, part of the ummah rather than as a U.S. citizen. And one in ten believe that violence against civilians is justified to defend Islam. So 10% of U.S. Muslims, A QUARTER OF A MILLION U.S. MUSLIMS BELIEVE THAT VIOLENCE AGAINST CIVILIANS IS JUSTIFIED TO DEFEND ISLAM. http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFile...ull-report.pdf (pg 10) So, tell me again how Muslims in the U.S. are just wonderful people we shouldn't be concerned about, and how muslims don't think of themselves as part of a collective.

    Consider the issue of pedophile priests in the Catholic Church. Do we excuse it for a few bad apples? Or do we say that the Catholic Church as a group has a problem? The organization has been successfully sued and made many out of court settlements. Members of the church recognize they have a problem, collectively. If one in ten catholics believed it were okay to sodomize little boys, would we not say that Catholics themselves, as a group, have a problem they should solve? Can you imagine the media coverage of Catholics and their church? Can you picture local parents of children demonstrating in front of Catholic churches? Why should we not hold Islam and Muslims accountable in a similar way?
    Last edited by evensaul; May 18th, 2013 at 08:35 AM.
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  16. #13
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I wasn't referring to Islam as a whole. It would be absurd to paint all followers of any faith in such a manner. I am specifically speaking about the so-called "Radical Islamic" sect that would hold the view of "An attack on one Muslim, is an attack on all Muslims" and then proceed to engage in violence when a Muslim is negatively impacted in some manner in another part of the world.
    Yep, I'm with you on that. And I'm also good to say that on balance, Islam is more a problem in our current age than any other religion and by a good measure. First in violence, first in oppression and that's a sad state. But I know and have known many good muslim people and more of them are decent than not. So I try to always insist on the distinction when I can.

    I'm no fan of religion in general and Islam is the worst offender. But even as I think of all the mayhem terrorists have caused, some of the muslims I know are far and away the most moral and the most principled religious people I've met.

    Would simply not attacking Nazis allow you to co-exist peacefully with them?
    No, not at all. And I was more being a smart ass and playing on the exact words than what you meant over all. Technically, you can peacefully co exist with someone who has a revenge ethic, so long as no one starts the fighting. But if you have a revenge ethic and also a will to dominate others, is going to make you a true enemy of peace.
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  17. #14
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Yep, I'm with you on that. And I'm also good to say that on balance, Islam is more a problem in our current age than any other religion and by a good measure. First in violence, first in oppression and that's a sad state. But I know and have known many good muslim people and more of them are decent than not. So I try to always insist on the distinction when I can.
    Well...the fact that there are so many good Muslim people sort of weakens any argument made (not necessarily by your post of course) that "Islam is an inherently dangerous religion" IMO. I think instead, it ought to be considered as "fuel." When we mix a particular type of culture with a particular type of philosophy (which admittedly, often go hand in hand), we have the potential for a very strong value system (be it for good or bad). And in the case of Islamic terrorism, it is Islam + particular culture that results in serious threat to free people and/or those who are simply different.

    Of course, this could be said about anything really. We could find radical Christian groups, militant Jewish, Hindu, even atheist groups. A mixing of a particular mindset with enough people sharing in that mindset, forming a particular philosophy fueled by an idealism can produce disastrous (or, as briefly mentioned above, wonderful) results.

    I do agree w/ you however, that right now, Militant Islam is the perhaps the biggest threat, or at least, it is what is on our current radar as such.
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    And in the case of Islamic terrorism, it is Islam + particular culture that results in serious threat to free people and/or those who are simply different.
    Unfortunately, it isn't just a small slice of culture that fuels Islamic violence. Twenty-eight percent of Muslims worldwide are unwilling to say that suicide bombings against civilians are never justified. (pg 142 of the above report) That is nearly one-third of 2.2 billion people, or 616 million Muslims who think it might be okay to murder innocent civilians in response to some perceived offense against Islam.
    Last edited by evensaul; May 18th, 2013 at 01:11 PM.
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Unfortunately, it isn't just a small slice of culture that fuels Islamic violence. Twenty-eight percent of Muslims worldwide are unwilling to say that suicide bombings against civilians are never justified. (pg 142 of the above report) That is nearly one-third of 2.2 billion people, or 616 million Muslims who think it might be okay to murder innocent civilians in response to some perceived offense against Islam.
    Never is a harsh word. I would bet that around that percentage of Christians couldn't say, in good faith, (see what I did there =) ) that attacks on civilians are never justified. Hell, I bet most Christians believe that the fire bombings of Japan during WWII are justifiable.
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Never is a harsh word. I would bet that around that percentage of Christians couldn't say, in good faith, (see what I did there =) ) that attacks on civilians are never justified.
    See if you can back that up with polling data. I'll bet the number is in the low single digits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Hell, I bet most Christians believe that the fire bombings of Japan during WWII are justifiable.
    Apples and oranges.
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Unfortunately, it isn't just a small slice of culture that fuels Islamic violence. Twenty-eight percent of Muslims worldwide are unwilling to say that suicide bombings against civilians are never justified. (pg 142 of the above report) That is nearly one-third of 2.2 billion people, or 616 million Muslims who think it might be okay to murder innocent civilians in response to some perceived offense against Islam.
    But acceptance OF violence is not synonymous with DOING violence.

    Yes, the idea that such violence is acceptable is something that is necessary to address. And yes, 26% of the world's Islamic population is nothing to scoff at. However...

    1) It does not follow that because they may see it as sometimes or often necessary, that they would engage in it themselves.
    2) Also 26% is significantly smaller than 74%, so my point about it not being inherent to the religion of Islam seems to still stand.
    3) Lastly, the 26% are from non-westernized, 3rd world countries. Living in a struggling world, poverty, famine, lack of necessities and/or even moderate luxuries is a completely different culture climate and can result in a completely different set of values.

    This is not to say that there is no responsibility on the part of the religion itself, but rather that it, when mixed with the right mindset, that of a particular cultural climate, can result in an explosion of violence.
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  23. #19
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    See if you can back that up with polling data. I'll bet the number is in the low single digits.
    I would take that bet everyday, all day. I bet that I can talk to 100 Christians and ask them if violence against civilians is NEVER justified, present scenarios, and get more than 95% to agree that in at least ONE occasion that violence against civilians is justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Apples and oranges.
    No it is not. The question was asking if violence against civilians is EVER justified. The fire bombing of Japan during WWII was, in fact, violence against civilians. Civilians were the direct target in fact.
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    Re: "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims"

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I would take that bet everyday, all day. I bet that I can talk to 100 Christians and ask them if violence against civilians is NEVER justified, present scenarios, and get more than 95% to agree that in at least ONE occasion that violence against civilians is justified.
    You'd have to word it exactly as the Pew Research poll did. Find a similar scientific poll or you're just speculating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    No it is not. The question was asking if violence against civilians is EVER justified. The fire bombing of Japan during WWII was, in fact, violence against civilians. Civilians were the direct target in fact.
    Different age, with relatively primitive technology in a declared war for survival of nations, in a time of different moralities. You might as well go back to The Crusades.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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