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  1. #41
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    I strongly disagree with this narrative. Neither the Benghazi incident nor the targeting of conservative groups by the IRS follows this supposed pattern you laid out.
    You've made far to many claims in your response for me to respond with the time I have... choose your favorite and actually lay out your evidence for it, and I will take it from there.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Then I'll make it simpler:

    Challenge to support a claim.Support or retract that there was no evidence of wrongdoing in the conduct of the Administration either before, during, or after the attack on the Benghazi consulate.

    Please address in your response the following well-documented points of evidence, at least:

    1) The repeated refusals of the State Department to heed the warnings of its ambassador and send more security and in fact stripping what security there was.
    2) The repeated orders to "stand down" given to at least 2 groups of military personnel who could have responded in time to save the lives of the people who were killed, including one team specifically trained to address the very type of threat they faced.
    3) The repeated and now well-documented lies told by Susan Rice, the Obama administration liaison for this affair, on no less than 5 different major news channels.
    4) The fact that virtually every living witness involved in the Benghazi attack was either immediately re-deployed to remote locations or kept sequestered from the media and all Congressional inquiry.
    5) The fact that at least 2 people involved in the affair have come forward to say that they were told that if they testified before Congress that their careers would be over.
    6) The fact that it took several weeks for the US to even begin investigation at the US Consulate on what happened.
    7) The continued refusal of the Department of Defense to allow multiple people to testify about the affair.
    8) The publicly broadcast lies Hillary Clinton told as head of the Department of State and has never been held accountable for telling, citing, "what difference does it make?"

    That's just a good start. Once you've addressed these points, maybe we can talk about how this was a "phony" scandal.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    But wait,

    This is all the stuff that got digged up, and none of which I am impressed with. If you shine an intense light on an issue, your bound to see all kinds of stuff that are not really pretty. But that is not why we got here.... We got there on trumped up charges that the Obama Administration was not calling Benghazi a terror attack because it would affect his chances of re-election. That's the phoney scandal.

    It's in the course of looking deeper that other issues came up, just like any other issues you shine hard on, for any administrations.

    In your outline, I see no mention of the original scandal that prompted all this digging for more information. Where is the evidence for that ?
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    But wait,

    This is all the stuff that got digged up, and none of which I am impressed with. If you shine an intense light on an issue, your bound to see all kinds of stuff that are not really pretty. But that is not why we got here.... We got there on trumped up charges that the Obama Administration was not calling Benghazi a terror attack because it would affect his chances of re-election. That's the phoney scandal.
    The lies the Susan Rice foisted off on the American people which were repeated by virtually the entire administration, including the President's spokesman, are nothing I dug up... they were a blatant attempt to deceive the American people which failed because we weren't that stupid. Nobody had to go digging for that.

    Furthermore, why on earth isn't the Obama administration itself digging for this kind of information without conservatives having a mean on for him? He got his 3 am phone call... and he did exactly nothing.

    The American people deserve answers about this... and that's not a phony scandal at all. It's about as real as it gets.... and it only got worse once we started looking a little closer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler
    In your outline, I see no mention of the original scandal that prompted all this digging for more information. Where is the evidence for that ?
    You don't think that allowing the first attack in 30 years to happen on an American ambassador to go completely unanswered while the President continued to be in full campaign mode, which remains unresolved to this day isn't a scandal par excellence? If this is true, then we aren't going to be able to have a conversation about this, because your definition of a "scandal" is totally beyond the realm of reasonable discourse.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    I think this notion is naive at best.

    There is no ONE investigation that can end on command: This is Washington, with immense amount of ressources for interests groups, thinktanks, journalists, opposition research and politicians etc... all bent on one thing, scoring the big story. There is no stopping the investigation, ever.
    I find it humorous you create a straw-man, and then call me Naive.
    I didn't say that Obama should ORDER the end of them, as though he had power to stop them.
    I was saying he should CALL FOR their end. In that he should ask/demand/pressure politically, those who are investigating to stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    What he is calling for an end to "parade of distractions, political posturing and phony scandals"
    Which has no specific meaning, and is thus gibberish.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    It goes like this:

    1- Something bad happens
    2- Rep. accuses the Administration for wrongdoing without any evidence
    3- The conservative media machine kicks in high gear
    4- Public investigations takes place
    5- Rep. says "IF the Administration did "point 2", it's very very bad
    6- Investigation finds nothing in relation to "point 2".
    Good, I'm glad he is asking to end that, because that isn't a reflection of reality at all.


    1) Something bad happens.
    2) Legitimate question is asked.
    3) Lie/inaccurate statement/non-answer #1 is given.
    4) Question persists, until political pressure forces an official investigation to answer Legitimate question(2).
    5) Investigation is stone walled, delayed ore sent to back room
    6) democrats assume everything was legit to begin with and that the "scandal" was false.
    7) Legit question never answered.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  6. #46
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    There is an additional element to Susan Rice's false version of events, besides just misleading the American public, and arguably a more malicious element. In claiming the attacks were the spontaneous result of Muslim outrage over a YouTube video, Rice contradicted the Libyan interim president, Mohammed Magarief's assessment the attack was premeditated. She consequently derailed any subsequent Libyan aid in investigating the attack. It is now beyond dispute Rice's remarks were given to her by the State Department, which at the same time was pressuring the CIA to delete entirely a paragraph in their "talking points memo" in which they mentioned previous planned attacks in Benghazi, and stated they could not rule out that the same people had planned the 9/11 attack that killed the Ambassador and his security staff. You can't publicly tell a head of any state, in front of the whole world, that you know more about what's going on in their country than they do, then plausibly expect their cooperation and good fellowship in your subsequent investigation in their country.This allowed Obama to claim he would not rest until the "investigation" was complete, and couldn't comment on it until it was, secure in the knowledge on day one it never would be.

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  8. #47
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    That's just a good start. Once you've addressed these points, maybe we can talk about how this was a "phony" scandal.
    The long list of points you are providing absolutely no evidence for in your post?

    No offence Talthas but if you are going to attack someone for not supporting their contentions, you should try supporting your contentions.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  10. #48
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I was saying he should CALL FOR their end. In that he should ask/demand/pressure politically, those who are investigating to stop.
    Well, that is your opinion; one I disagree with, and that President Obama is ignoring.
    In fact, your advice in what he should do only serve to feed the perception of #5 below.

    1) Something bad happens.
    2) Legitimate question is asked.
    3) Lie/inaccurate statement/non-answer #1 is given.
    4) Question persists, until political pressure forces an official investigation to answer Legitimate question(2).
    5) Investigation is stone walled, delayed ore sent to back room
    6) democrats assume everything was legit to begin with and that the "scandal" was false.
    7) Legit question never answered.
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  11. #49
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Then I'll make it simpler:

    1) The repeated refusals of the State Department to heed the warnings of its ambassador and send more security and in fact stripping what security there was.
    OK, so let's take these step by step.

    I agree totally with the statement as written. It's the conclusion of many enquiries as well.

    However, you are linking it to a wider context of scandals involving the Obama Administration. Senior State Departements officials is not equal to the Obama Administration.

    Even the partisan report written by Republicans of the Five House Committees (Armed Services, Foreign Affairs, Intelligence, Judiciary, and Oversight and Government Reform) did not go as far to implicate the Administration and state amongst it's finding that:

    "Senior State Department officials knew that the threat environment in Benghazi was high and that the Benghazi compound was vulnerable and unable to withstand an attack, yet the department continued to systematically withdraw security personnel"
    Source: http://www.speaker.gov/report/benghazi-interim-report

    So what do you, Talthas, have in terms of credentials that I should believe you on your word alone that the Obama administration is implicated in a scandalous way to this knowledge that some senior official had? If it's not on your word alone, what evidence do you have that the Five House Committees did not to make the connection you are making? Without credentials or evidence, this point is dead.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  12. #50
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    Well, that is your opinion; one I disagree with, and that President Obama is ignoring.
    In fact, your advice in what he should do only serve to feed the perception of #5 below.
    Well, if he is ignoring all of what I said.. then It doesn't matter what it feeds. Him ignoring it could equally be construed as supporting #5.


    But what is is currently doing is denying #2.(that legitimate questions are being asked).
    Do you agree with him doing that?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  13. #51
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    But what is is currently doing is denying #2.(that legitimate questions are being asked).
    Do you agree with him doing that?
    Does President Obama deny legitimate questions to be asked?
    I don't think it's within his power or in his interest to do that. It's not what he's calling for either.

    In my opinion, the Administration benefited with both the Benghazi and IRS inquiries by clearing the air from vague allegations and replacing them with more precise and documented allegations that can be argued over.

    ---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    2) The repeated orders to "stand down" given to at least 2 groups of military personnel who could have responded in time to save the lives of the people who were killed, including one team specifically trained to address the very type of threat they faced.
    Well first, the stand down order issue is completely undetermined and I doubt you have any evidence to provide.
    http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/benghazi.asp

    But more importantly, if you want to make this an Obama Administration scandal, the stand down order would need to come from it... Where is the evidence for that?

    ---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 PM ----------

    3) The repeated and now well-documented lies told by Susan Rice, the Obama administration liaison for this affair, on no less than 5 different major news channels.
    I know what you are referring to, but you need to be more precise. What statement did she make that was a lie?
    Of course, we all know what a lie is: a false statement made by someone who knows it is not the whole truth, intentionally.

    It's easy to show a statement to be false, after the fog of war as lifted... but I'm looking forward to you trying to demonstrate that false statements were made intentionnally.
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  14. #52
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Does President Obama deny legitimate questions to be asked?
    I don't think it's within his power or in his interest to do that. It's not what he's calling for either.

    In my opinion, the Administration benefited with both the Benghazi and IRS inquiries by clearing the air from vague allegations and replacing them with more precise and documented allegations that can be argued over.
    The only thing the article has found false is that admin officials watched things unfold in real time and did nothing. More troubling, and this tends to be the argument against the administration, is that so many other issues are, as your link noted, have been left "UNDETERMINED". Shouldn't we have answers nearly 1 year after the event occurred?


    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    I know what you are referring to, but you need to be more precise. What statement did she make that was a lie?
    Of course, we all know what a lie is: a false statement made by someone who knows it is not the whole truth, intentionally.

    It's easy to show a statement to be false, after the fog of war as lifted... but I'm looking forward to you trying to demonstrate that false statements were made intentionnally.
    I expect more. When a government spokesperson makes a claim and we find she had little basis for providing that claim, then it is not too big a stretch to claim deceit. Does she have plausible deniability? Sure. She didn't really look too hard into the claims she was asked to make. Is that an excuse now? Are we all good with that? I find the whole thing just a bit shady. Underhanded. Did she lie? Mmmmm, I dunno. She has clearly and the administration has clearly has been parsing the truth with a very fine comb. Frankly, I am just done with it all.
    If I am hearing Rand Paul or Obama, I wouldn't give either one my vote. They just parse and bob and duck and weave and I am simply going to expect more from any candidate who wants my vote. No more benefit of the doubt. Obama is a crook in my book. He has been caught in untruth after untruth. Different than any other politician? No. Not at all. I am simply not about to forgive him because politics has been dragged through the mud by a-holes like him.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  15. #53
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Shouldn't we have answers nearly 1 year after the event occurred?
    Actually, Mr Hick, who was supposed to be one of the GOP's "whistleblower" provided some interesting elements of answer:

    During questioning, Hicks confirmed that the team [Special forces] was ready to be deployed — not to join the fighting at the CIA annex — but “to secure the airport for the withdrawal of our personnel from Benghazi after the mortar attack.” Hicks also confirmed that it was the second such team to be readied for deployment, with the first having proceeded to Benghazi earlier. Despite the second team not deploying, the staff was all evacuated first to Tripoli, then to Germany, within 18 hours of the attack taking place."

    http://thinkprogress.org/security/20...bunk-benghazi/

    An intervention force was at Benghazi, but it was not special forces, but rather CIA and was there within 25 minutes after the beginning of the attack.

    "The CIA rushed security operatives to an American diplomatic compound in Libya within 25 minutes of its coming under attack and played a more central role in the effort to fend off a night-long siege than has been acknowledged publicly, U.S. intelligence officials said Thursday.
    The agency mobilized the evacuation effort, took control of an unarmed U.S. military drone to map possible escape routes, dispatched an emergency security team from Tripoli, the capital, and chartered aircraft that ultimately carried surviving American personnel to safety, U.S. officials said.
    The account provided by senior U.S. intelligence officials offers the most detailed chronology yet of the Sept. 11 assault that killed the U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other Americans. The attack has become a flash point in the U.S. presidential campaign."


    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...rrorist-attack

    Special forces, CIA (likely covert), it's pretty clear that no... you don't really need to know all the details.

    ---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

    4) The fact that virtually every living witness involved in the Benghazi attack was either immediately re-deployed to remote locations or kept sequestered from the media and all Congressional inquiry.
    Give me something to work with... especially since there has been many eyewitness accounts. Just name me one person that's sequestered.

    5) The fact that at least 2 people involved in the affair have come forward to say that they were told that if they testified before Congress that their careers would be over.
    Two people really? Who said it would be the end of their career, their wives ? The milkman ?
    Last edited by Vandaler; July 31st, 2013 at 01:48 PM.
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  16. #54
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    Give me something to work with... especially since there has been many eyewitness accounts. Just name me one person that's sequestered.
    The general in charge, who was said to have been retired and so they couldn't find him, but was not. Even if he was retired he could still be questioned regarding things that occurred during his time in charge. (I can't remember his name right off)
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  17. #55
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    6) The fact that it took several weeks for the US to even begin investigation at the US Consulate on what happened.
    An investigation was opened less then 2 days after the attack.

    The Obama administration, roiled by the first killing of a U.S. ambassador in more than 30 years, has begun what appears to be a terrorist hunt in Libya, as evidence mounts that the deaths of four diplomatic workers there were perpetrated by well-armed thugs and not an out-of-control crowd.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...hunt-in-libya/

    ---------- Post added at 08:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

    7) The continued refusal of the Department of Defense to allow multiple people to testify about the affair
    This seem to be a repeat of point #4, but you are so unspecific, that it's hard to say eitherway.

    ---------- Post added at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The general in charge, who was said to have been retired and so they couldn't find him, but was not. Even if he was retired he could still be questioned regarding things that occurred during his time in charge. (I can't remember his name right off)
    Marine Col. George Bristol.

    He testified 2 weeks ago.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ces-commander/

    ---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------

    8) The publicly broadcast lies Hillary Clinton told as head of the Department of State and has never been held accountable for telling, citing, "what difference does it make?"
    This one is my favorite, because of course, you are saying that she lied under oath before Congress, which is really a big problem and if it were even remotely true, there would have been hell over this. The "what difference does it makes" was rethorical exasperation and not to be taken word for word. Of course, you need to outline what was said that was intentionaly false.
    Last edited by Vandaler; July 31st, 2013 at 05:16 PM.
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  18. #56
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    An investigation was opened less then 2 days after the attack.

    The Obama administration, roiled by the first killing of a U.S. ambassador in more than 30 years, has begun what appears to be a terrorist hunt in Libya, as evidence mounts that the deaths of four diplomatic workers there were perpetrated by well-armed thugs and not an out-of-control crowd.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...hunt-in-libya/
    Opening the investigation can plausibly be seen as a political charade. After Rice had been sent out to publicly contradict Mabarief's statement the attack was premeditated, Obama had no rational expectation his FBI investigation team getting any sort of Libyan cooperation from Mabarief.

    A key Benghazi whistle-blower, responding to Democratic claims that the prolonged scrutiny over the administration's botched talking points is unwarranted, testified Wednesday that the early mischaracterization of the attack may have actually hurt the FBI's investigation. "I definitely believe that it negatively affected our ability to get the FBI team quickly to Benghazi," said Greg Hicks, the deputy chief of mission in Libya who became the top U.S. diplomat in the country after Ambassador Chris Stevens was killed. He claimed the Libyan president was angered by the mischaracterization, in turn slowing the U.S. probe. Foxnews.com May 8th, 2013
    Headline in Dec. 10th, 2010 New York Times

    Libyan Reluctance Hampers U.S. Investigation Into Deadly Benghazi Assault
    Jan. 17th of this year Rueters reported on FBI Director Mueller's visit with Libyan Prime Minister Ali Zeidan. The two held "secret meetings" according to the report to discuss the "ongoing cooperation" of Libya in the current FBI investigation, which is a joke, since the report goes on to explain:

    FBI agents went to Benghazi in October to analyze the crime scene but have since remained in Tripoli because of security concerns. In an effort to generate leads, the FBI has put out a poster asking for information.
    Yeah, I did that once before...when we lost our cat. In any case, there you have the same story from what is arguably a conservatively leaning source, a liberally leaning source, and a respected foreign news source.

    Now there are two, and only two interpretations for these events any intelligent person can make:

    1.) The Obama Administration is chock full of idiots

    2.) The State Department sabotaged the FBI investigation before it ever began.

    Which would you prefer? The Obama Administration is scandalously and dangerously inept, or it is that PLUS scandalously and maliciously self-serving. Can you honestly say it matters either way?

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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    Marine Col. George Bristol.

    He testified 2 weeks ago.
    Right, and Benghazi occurred .. what 15 days ago.. 3 weeks tops? right?

    So do you or do you not agree that he was basically sequestered until two weeks ago.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    After Rice had been sent out to publicly contradict Mabarief's statement the attack was premeditated, Obama had no rational expectation his FBI investigation team getting any sort of Libyan cooperation from Mabarief.
    All you showed for evidence is someone’s opinion on the matter that has little to no access to Libya’s Head of State thinking or frame of mind. But even if true and I’m willing to consider it, I think this falls into the realm of unintended consequences. Unless the high priority after an embassy has been attacked, is to comply without evidence to what the host country says happened in the hopes to not hurt their fragile ego, there are far more important considerations in play. Second guessing decisions based on unintended consequences is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best and while interesting, it’s not a good angle to measure performance.

    ---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So do you or do you not agree that he was basically sequestered until two weeks ago.
    I don’t know if the retirement issue was a phoney excuse to prevent him to testify or if there really was some kind of administrative snafu. It’s possible the Pentagon really did not want him to testify for reasons that are their own. I don’t know what happened. What I do know, is that by raising this issue in the context of discussions where one party is trying to make phoney scandals stick on the Obama administration, the subtext is: the Obama administration is applying pressure to prevent someone from talking because it would damage their “cover up” of Benghazi. I also know there is no evidence for this. He testified, and it was a non-event… nothing transpired out of it.
    Last edited by Vandaler; August 1st, 2013 at 06:46 AM. Reason: Removed dodgy claim
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What scandal is the admin thinking of?
    Here is an attempt to answer and reframe the debate.

    I think phony scandals are those where Republicans confuse a real scandal, where facts are clearly known and damaging, as opposed to political red meat allegations, where facts are not known but the narrative and process of investigation dominate the political landscape.
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Obama's False Scandals charge

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    I think phony scandals are those where Republicans confuse a real scandal, where facts are clearly known and damaging, as opposed to political red meat allegations, where facts are not known but the narrative and process of investigation dominate the political landscape.
    Where do lies and deceitful answers fall in your two definitions?
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

 

 
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