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  1. #81
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Hmm. You're right, it's really hostage
    It doesn't matter what you want to name it. The question is.. Is that the power they were given?
    The answer is yes, just as the pres is given the power of Veto.

    I have a question for you, what does it mean to be given the power of the purse?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    you still need to transfer the money before the thread can continue.
    You didn't answer my question,
    Is that the nature of our relationship? If that is the case then I won't engage you in any thread.
    To serve man.

  2. #82
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It doesn't matter what you want to name it. The question is.. Is that the power they were given?
    The answer is yes, just as the pres is given the power of Veto.

    I have a question for you, what does it mean to be given the power of the purse?
    It doesn't mean it can be used for extortion to repeal a law you don't like. Otherwise we don't have a democracy.

    You didn't answer my question,
    Is that the nature of our relationship? If that is the case then I won't engage you in any thread.
    Well, my point is made. It's horrible to be negotiating under a threat of any kind isn't it? That's what's happening right now with the shutdown and the threat to default on America's debts. That's not normal operating procedure or politics.

    I formally withdraw the paypal demand and further, apologize for resorting to such tactics.

  3. #83
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The OP notes that the shutdown is not having the massively negative effects that were predicted by those who argue for the essential role of gov in the areas that are being shut down.
    You know? I just realized that your entire argument may very well be based on a critical error on your part.

    I've never read any predictions of a massively negative effect of a gov. Shutdown. Those predictions are reserved for a default of payment from not raising the debt ceiling. Since your OP hinges on the effects that were predicted but not happening, I challenge you to demonstrate that those predictions were made by credible sources about the shutdown.

    I've come to the conclusion your confusing the effects predicted for defaulting on payment rather then a shutdown. Such a mistake nullifies your argument at the root.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  5. #84
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    Interesting. Its been how many days and the sky hasn't fallen.
    It just show you how bloated the government is anyway. It needs to get back to its Constitutional figure.

    ---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Made doubly interesting considering that Obama is his cronies are going out of their way to try to make this slowdown as painful as possible.
    Yes, Obama is pretty pathetic, and anything but a leader.
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  6. #85
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    Interesting. Its been how many days and the sky hasn't fallen.
    Who said the sky would fall provided a shutdown?
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  7. #86
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Question to opponent.Given our current financial situation, specifically the fact that the gov spends more than it takes in, should each non-essential worker/department be forced to justify it's existence before being brought back?
    This suggestion crumbles under it's own weight. For non-essential worker/department to justify their existence means that they would need to write some kind of business case for themselves, which would be reviewed against objective criteria. And who would perform this review for 800,000 individuals?

    Especially since you know... the gov. is shutdown right now!!!
    How long would the process take?

    Maybe you would like to reaffect those essential workers currently busy with the safety of human life or the protection of property or performing certain other types of excepted work and have them evaluate the merits of those that are deemed not essential instead?

    The question posed by the OP is extreme in it's ideology and offensive. It can only be assumed of course that you thought that these employees would not be paid during the very long delays before a decision is made on them... Honestly dude, what have these people done that you feel compelled to argue so nastily against them?
    Last edited by Vandaler; October 7th, 2013 at 01:33 PM.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  8. #87
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    It doesn't mean it can be used for extortion to repeal a law you don't like. Otherwise we don't have a democracy.
    Extort/black-mail.. your just changing names.
    It is EXACTLY for the purpose of funding/defunding gov programs in accordance with the elected officials that were given that power.

    Also.. we are a republic.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Well, my point is made. It's horrible to be negotiating under a threat of any kind isn't it? That's what's happening right now with the shutdown and the threat to default on America's debts. That's not normal operating procedure or politics.

    I formally withdraw the paypal demand and further, apologize for resorting to such tactics.

    Such as a threat of Veto?
    Or how about a threat not to talk?

    It may not be the best possible, it is just the best so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    I've come to the conclusion your confusing the effects predicted for defaulting on payment rather then a shutdown. Such a mistake nullifies your argument at the root.
    My argument is rooted in the SERVICE not the economic fallout of defaulting on debt.

    The parks example is a good case here. Where the fed fails to provide the service, we see that the state is more than capable and in many cases willing.
    We should learn from that.


    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    This suggestion crumbles under it's own weight. For non-essential worker/department to justify their existence means that they would need to write some kind of business case for themselves, which would be reviewed against objective criteria. And who would perform this review for 800,000 individuals?
    They didn't take that much for our gov to implement them.
    I think you are over complicating the matter.
    Take the WIC example.
    If it was decided that the service of giving milk to women who could produce their own for their newborns, then the funding for it could be cut.
    The department heads would then execute that when they are brought back.
    It is a simple matter of going from the general to the specific. As the department heads are still on the job (they are the ones who chose who is "essential and non-essential")
    They would then evaluate that part of it.

    It's o.k. the people are on the job to do it, just as they were on the job to send 900K works home and decide that those 900k were "non-essential".

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    The Office of Management and Budget recently ordered managers at all federal agencies to conduct reviews to see which of their employees fall into each of these two categories. If a shutdown hits, the essential workers stick around, albeit without pay. The non-essential workers have to go home after a half-day of preparing to close shop.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...own-will-work/

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    Especially since you know... the gov. is shutdown right now!!!
    How long would the process take?
    You and JJ seem to be under the impression that we don't have a gov right now, or that we live in anarchy.


    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    Maybe you would like to reaffect those essential workers currently busy with the safety of human life or the protection of property or performing certain other types of excepted work and have them evaluate the merits of those that are deemed not essential instead?
    Why is that a good idea?


    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    The question posed by the OP is extreme in it's ideology and offensive. It can only be assumed of course that you thought that these employees would not be paid during the very long delays before a decision is made on them... Honestly dude, what have these people done that you feel compelled to argue so nastily against them?
    Well seeing as you hate zombies so much I don't feel compelled to answer this at all. *J*
    Joking.. of course your appeal to emotion is rejected.
    To serve man.

  9. #88
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Extort/black-mail.. your just changing names.
    Not quite - extortion is actually more accurate.

    It is EXACTLY for the purpose of funding/defunding gov programs in accordance with the elected officials that were given that power.
    There are enough votes to remove the ObamaCare requirement; Beohner just won't take the vote; in keeping with not accepting the will of the people on this. You guys haven't won a single battle regarding this law. Please just accept that you have lost. On second thoughts, don't - every day just provides more reasons why Republicans just don't know how to govern.

  10. #89
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    @ JJ
    Your response did not contain any rebuttal to my point, or even address it in any way.
    There is nothing for me to respond to.
    To serve man.

  11. #90
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ JJ
    Your response did not contain any rebuttal to my point, or even address it in any way.
    There is nothing for me to respond to.
    There are three points we are discussing:

    1. Whether extortion is the way to do things; that a minority group should be allowed to shutdown government just because they don't like a law that they have repeatedly fail to stall.
    2. That this is "a bad thing" (it's a bad way to conduct business in ODN, I think you agree there, but do you further agree it is bad form in Government).
    3. Whether the power of the purse argument is relevant, given that there are enough votes to pass a clean bill.

  12. #91
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post

    1. Whether extortion is the way to do things; that a minority group should be allowed to shutdown government just because they don't like a law that they have repeatedly fail to stall.
    What minority group is doing this? The majority party in the House is the Republican party. They are doing this....so, who are you talking about exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    2. That this is "a bad thing" (it's a bad way to conduct business in ODN, I think you agree there, but do you further agree it is bad form in Government).
    It's not a bad thing at all. Utilizing leverage is a tactic that is widely used in government, business, and life in general. If you have leverage, use it. Obama uses his leverage frequently and no one complains about it...especially not on the left.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    3. Whether the power of the purse argument is relevant, given that there are enough votes to pass a clean bill.
    In the Senate maybe, I don't think that is the case in the House. If there were, they should be able to force a vote on it. I think the Speaker has done a good job holding the troops together and digging in their heels. Seems like the Republican party finally got a bit of backbone.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  13. #92
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    What minority group is doing this? The majority party in the House is the Republican party. They are doing this....so, who are you talking about exactly?
    The Tea Party minority that seems to be running things these days.

    It's not a bad thing at all. Utilizing leverage is a tactic that is widely used in government, business, and life in general. If you have leverage, use it. Obama uses his leverage frequently and no one complains about it...especially not on the left.
    Extortion isn't the kind of leverage that should be used. Especially not against a signature bill, and having already failed every other means (2 elections, an SC decision, 40+ failed votes). This is not what losing is supposed to look like - even if the Republicans win this one, it will set the stage for future politics to come.

    In the Senate maybe, I don't think that is the case in the House. If there were, they should be able to force a vote on it. I think the Speaker has done a good job holding the troops together and digging in their heels. Seems like the Republican party finally got a bit of backbone.
    I am explicitly referring to the house - there are 21 House Republicans that have stated that they will vote for a clean CR (src); 4 more than what is needed. Boehner just needs to put it to the vote - that's pretty much how democracy is supposed to work.

  14. #93
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post

    Well, over the next decade the continued tax breaks to the rich are going to cost us 4 trillion dollars. You let me know how many decades it takes fake breast milk for mothers comes anywhere f***ing close to that.
    Taxing the wealthy, while it may make us middle class folks feel good will not solve our budget problems. First, increasing revenue (even if increasing taxes guarunteed greater revenue) does not limit government from spending it. Really, though, the contradiction is in your own claims. While on the one hand, you observe that Congress spends money on making its rich friends richer, your other hand is begging the government to take more money from rich folks.... I don't understand. You want Congress to take more money from its rich friends so it can hand it back to its other rich friends? It would seem that if you want to drain the swamp you have to cut off the water supply, i.e. the revenue. I am all for decreasing military spending. I'd love to see corporate tax loopholes and billionaire subsidies removed. I am not naive enough to believe this would actually solve any problems. Unless government is fundamentally redefined from a catch-all for every human foible and problem, giving government the authority to redistribute cash and property to those who have access to power, then there cannot nor will not be a budget solution. So, even though it may seem unfair or inequitable, I am in total favor of any and all tax breaks. The more the merrier. Ideally, let's all get to zero taxes and let politicians whore themselves out the way proper prostitutes do. It'd be a nice change letting them take it in the ass instead of us. I love the government shutdown because with government closed and Congress focused solely on the budget, they can't **** up anything else. The only crime is that while those bastards are sending middle class folks home on furloughs, they are still pulling down their six figure salaries, not to mention all the graft they pick up from their friends.

    You want a balanced budget GP? Make being a Congressman a zero salary job and ensure they don't get a dime. Make them like college football players. They get the office, the prestige, the power, the chicks, but they cannot take a second job, earn income, or receive special benefits. Hell, we can expand the NCAA and give them oversight powers over Congress. We'll suddenly a lot less whores filling the halls of Congress. Instead, you'd see regular people who want to do good for the country. You know, kinda of like it was before FDR ****ed up DC by making the government the Wal-Mart of corporate interests. As Truman noted when he was Senator, before FDR, D.C. was filled with interested lobbyists. They wore cheap clothes. They were experts in their fields. They weren't wealthy. After FDR, those people disappeared and were replaced by expensive lawyers and expensive lobbyists who were not interested in causes, but in getting all the money the government was suddenly handing out.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  15. #94
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My argument is rooted in the SERVICE not the economic fallout of defaulting on debt.
    I Challenge to support a claim. you to support your claim below

    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    The OP notes that the shutdown is not having the massively negative effects that were predicted by those who argue for the essential role of gov in the areas that are being shut down.
    Because if you cannot support your own claim, there is no reason to conclude that:

    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    The OP asks that if we should re-evaluate based on the effects.
    It's plain and simple you messed up: The effects are pretty much what was predicted by credible and knowledgeable people, thus no re-evaluation is required.

    Additionally, I reject your example of park workers because it should be obvious to anyone that no one would have predicted the sky to fall, or the stock market to crash because parks are closed a few weeks. Your example does not follow from your argument.
    Last edited by Vandaler; October 8th, 2013 at 03:42 AM.
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  16. #95
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    The Tea Party minority that seems to be running things these days.
    The Tea Party is represented in Congress by what? At most 20 Republicans in the House? How, exactly, could 20 members of a 535 person Congress "Run things"?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Extortion isn't the kind of leverage that should be used.
    So you are admitting that Dirty Harry Reid and Obama are using extortion as well? Aren't they taking the EXACT same stance the right is taking?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Especially not against a signature bill,
    What difference does it make if it is his "Signature" bill or not? (Pretty sad that Obamacare is his crowning achievement)

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    and having already failed every other means (2 elections, an SC decision, 40+ failed votes).
    Due to obstructionism on the left. It is clear that Americans do not want Obamacare as it exist currently. They especially do not want the individual mandate. It is the left that is refusing to listen to the people (typical) and instead trying to force their views down the throats of everyone. The Right are the only ones fighting for the common man (again, typical)

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    This is not what losing is supposed to look like - even if the Republicans win this one, it will set the stage for future politics to come.
    Not sure who is losing....Republicans are the majority party in the House, arent they?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I am explicitly referring to the house - there are 21 House Republicans that have stated that they will vote for a clean CR (src); 4 more than what is needed. Boehner just needs to put it to the vote - that's pretty much how democracy is supposed to work.
    Pretty sure if a majority did exist like that, they could force a vote. Regardless, democracy is working the exact way it was designed to. Checks and balances. The House is acting within the confines of that role, thank God.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  17. #96
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    So you are admitting that Dirty Harry Reid and Obama are using extortion as well? Aren't they taking the EXACT same stance the right is taking?
    What is the object of the extortion Democrats are trying to impose?
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  18. #97
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    What are Democrats trying to extort?
    Fear would be the historical answer.

    However, in this specific scenario, neither side is using extortion at all. Point I was making was that both sides are using the exact same tactic and have the exact same positions. So, if you are going to call one side out for using extortion, then it applies to both sides. The reality is that both sides are using the law and their leverage to their advantage.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

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  20. #98
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    Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    The Tea Party is represented in Congress by what? At most 20 Republicans in the House? How, exactly, could 20 members of a 535 person Congress "Run things"?
    Yes, it's odd that. I can't explain their influence other than perhaps traditional conservatives are being threatened in their gerrymandered districts to vote a particular way or face a difficult 2014. The latest news I haven't absorbed is that this was planned since last year so perhaps the source is there and not the TP.

    So you are admitting that Dirty Harry Reid and Obama are using extortion as well? Aren't they taking the EXACT same stance the right is taking?
    I thought Clint (and his empty stool, lol) was your hero. But no the left is not engaging in extortion; they are just refusing to submit to it. They have already passed a sequester level budget, have been reported to obstruct 20 debates, yet continue to refuse to take yes for an answer.

    What difference does it make if it is his "Signature" bill or not? (Pretty sad that Obamacare is his crowning achievement)
    It means that it's unlikely to garner support for it's defunding. Especially on the day it started.

    Due to obstructionism on the left. It is clear that Americans do not want Obamacare as it exist currently.
    Well, they should change the law through proper channels so that those Americans that do want it, get their voices heard. Hence Boehner should hold the vote.

    They especially do not want the individual mandate.
    Of course they don't want it. Who would want to pay for something they'd been getting for free!?

    It is the left that is refusing to listen to the people (typical) and instead trying to force their views down the throats of everyone. The Right are the only ones fighting for the common man (again, typical)
    The right are the ones bringing down the country so that people can't have medical insurance. Looks like the right gets to hurt the American people either way. It is better that they are forced to operate within established democratic procedures no matter how they want to do it. The left is defending a constitutionally implemented law.


    Not sure who is losing....Republicans are the majority party in the House, arent they?
    Have you taken a look at the polls recently? Now that we know that some Republicans refused to give up their own salaries, I think 2014 will be very interesting indeed.


    Pretty sure if a majority did exist like that, they could force a vote.
    The speaker still has to call it, I believe. Besides, if Boehner wants the vote to win for an unclean-CR then why wouldn't the call the vote?

    Regardless, democracy is working the exact way it was designed to. Checks and balances. The House is acting within the confines of that role, thank God.
    Well, if you believe that, then I hope you will be just as generous when the Democrats do the same.

  21. #99
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Point I was making was that both sides are using the exact same tactic and have the exact same positions. So, if you are going to call one side out for using extortion, then it applies to both sides. The reality is that both sides are using the law and their leverage to their advantage.
    Sorry but no...

    Republican's are trying to extract (Extort) concessions out of Democrats on Obamacare... I say extort, because they don't have the votes to get their way without resorting to derail the economy by not raising the debt ceiling if they don't get their way.

    But if you ask: What are Democrats trying to extort or gain? If it's the same tactic... you should be able to identify something, but you can't.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Sorry but no...

    Republican's are trying to extract (Extort) concessions out of Democrats on Obamacare... I say extort, because they don't have the votes to get their way without resorting to derail the economy by not raising the debt ceiling if they don't get their way.
    Sorry, but no .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Actual Definition
    Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion.
    Republicans are using the leverage they Constitutionally have (read: not illegal) in order to effect laws that they wish to change or pass.

    It is the essence of the cheek and balance system, one in which Liberals have benefited from and suffered from (like losing the battle against Civil Rights) .

    Unless you are prepared to explain how the Republicans are acting in a criminal way, I'm going to have to ask for a retraction


    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    if you ask: What are Democrats trying to extort or gain? If it's the same tactic... you should be able to identify something, but you can't.
    If we were going by your definition of extortion (an incorrect one) then the obvious answer would be that they are trying to extort a blanket and irresponsible change in the debt ceiling and government spending by withholding debate and negotiation. Thus, holding the national best interests hostage.

    If either party is in violation of the constitution, it would be the Liberals who are refusing to even come to the table and discuss things.

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