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  1. #161
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    If I am a boss in the civilian world...
    The difference between you (the generic tax payer) and a boss in the civilian world, is that your not competent to asses the usefulness of someone's work. Saying otherwise is a travesty of what competence really means.

    I take your argument that "the country is running fine" after only two weeks of shutdown as a sample of your incompetence and how shallow your analysis is.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  2. #162
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    The difference between you (the generic tax payer) and a boss in the civilian world, is that your not competent to asses the usefulness of someone's work. Saying otherwise is a travesty of what competence really means.
    Perhaps I personally am not. But I elect people to figure that out for me and act on my behalf (read: Democracy....or more accurately Representative Republic) and regardless, I am the one...as are you and every other TAX PAYER that they are responsible to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    I take your argument that "the country is running fine" after only two weeks of shutdown as a sample of your incompetence and how shallow your analysis is.
    Im not really interested in exchanging hostilities with you. Libs went crazy about how the world would stop turning if the government slowed down. It didnt. There dont seem to be any real ill effects thus far. Judging what has happened so far is a perfectly valid part of the decision making / judging process. Certainly more valid than the endless rhetoric spewing from the Left.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  3. #163
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Perhaps I personally am not. But I elect people to figure that out for me and act on my behalf
    Perfect... Elected officials voted that not only they deserve their jobs, but they added also they deserve to be paid during the shutdown... unanimously! So it pretty much settles the matter.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  4. #164
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Perfect... Elected officials voted that not only they deserve their jobs, but they added also they deserve to be paid during the shutdown... unanimously! So it pretty much settles the matter.
    And I disagree with their findings...so, I will elect new people who represent my view point. Democracy in action is a beautiful thing.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  5. #165
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Im not really interested in exchanging hostilities with you. Libs went crazy about how the world would stop turning if the government slowed down. It didnt.
    I already nailed MT on this, to the effect it's confusing the predicted effect of the shutdown and default... he conceded, and you would not be able to do better. No one predicted then end of the world for a shutdown. No one credible... you get it?

    ---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    And I disagree with their findings...so, I will elect new people who represent my view point. Democracy in action is a beautiful thing.
    You disagree based on your incompetence you conceded earlier ?
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  6. #166
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    I don't recall conceding anything to you. I don't think we need nearly as many Federal employees as we have on the books. 800 thousand have been not at work for 2 weeks and the world is still turning. While not conclusive proof of their being no significant ill-effects from a slowdown, it supports rather than opposes my ideas.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  7. #167
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    No, the OP goes much further simply re-evaluate the way we interact with gov.

    It asks "should each non-essential worker/department be forced to justify it's existence before being brought back?" and "after all if we can live without them.. why do we need them?" - This was aggravated by your ill advised and in my view, mean spirited hypothesis that furloughed employees would not get paid and viewing this as a positive step towards balancing the budget.
    Your using terms and ideas that are not connected to any real meaning.
    For example you say I aggravated my statement... how does that happen? What does that mean?

    Further you called my statement "mean spirited".. What does that mean? Did I say it in a mean voice?
    Did I say it in order to hurt people?

    If you think that, then your simply not giving any fair reading to the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    Reality is, there is not a single legitimate question that can be investigated further on the basis rational cost/benefit analysis that needs to happen while the government in shutdown or before it re-opens like the OP suggests.
    I disagree. I think that the reality of doing without a service can provide important perspective.

    I'll give you a personal example. We haven't had cable for years. But before we got rid of it it was hard to imagine a world without it.
    On the flip side we had the a similar but opposite experience with cell phones.

    After Katrina our cell's were out for weeks after, and it made running our buisnesses very difficult and more complicated.
    I remember a time before having cell phones, and we made it just fine.. but now we are so used to it that things have changed.


    ----(that is called support BTW)-----

    So, yes, one can learn a lot from doing without a service, and that can help them prioritize in a way that may not be as well understood by simply hypothesisising.



    ---Step to balancing budget---
    First it is important to note that once congress decided to pay those on furlough(forwarded by another and conceided by myself) I withdrew that claim.
    It doesn't help to balance the budget by paying people who are not working. .. unless of course we use it as an opprtunity to re-evaluate.



    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    It would be mean spirited of me to propose and hope for you to be furloughed of your current job without a pay until such time you can justify your own job. It would add an ironic twist to propose and hope for this to happen while you actually are furloughed for totally unrelated reasons.
    O..that is what you mean.
    As SomeGuy points out.. hey.. that is how reality works for many others, I don't see why the gov jobs should be held up as sacrade cows.


    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    I already nailed MT on this, to the effect it's confusing the predicted effect of the shutdown and default... he conceded, and you would not be able to do better. No one predicted then end of the world for a shutdown. No one credible... you get it?
    Yea, you nailed me.. I was sooo nailed. Being a carpenter, I know what nailed is.. and let me tell you.. you nailed me.

    The exchange in question


    Quote Originally Posted by MT POST 115
    I concede that no one ever said anything bad would occur if the gov shut down.
    Given that, it means that there was no negative reason offered to the Rep that would cause them to NOT shut down the gov (after all, no one said any negative would come from it.. right?).

    I still hold that we should re-examine the departments based on the effects of the shut down. .. As there is no negative(see concession), and no one claiming any negative(see concession), then we have a stronger argument that the EFFECT of the shut down justifies a second look at the justification for these “Non-essential” jobs/departments.

    See, the OP does not rest or rely on people doom saying before the shut down. It relies on the effects of the shut down not being negative enough or conversely offering new insight on exactly what we will be doing without and it’s effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    So naturally, I Challenge to support a claim. you on it: Please show that is was predicted that nothing negative would come out of a gov. shutdown.
    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    Your challenge is invalid because it is to a straw-man.
    I didn’t claim that “it was predicted that no negative would come”.
    I am claiming the opposite of the claim you are challenging. I assume your challenge is a DENIAL of the previous statement. So the Opposite of it is that NO ONE predicted any negatives. IE There were no doomsayers. (which is what you challenged the existence of).

    So I think you have misunderstood, and now you should be clear on what my point was.
    The point of course is not that the OP rests on some prediction being wrong, but that it is a realty that has not occurred.
    That some may or may not have said so is irrelevant... but by all means.. focus on the irrelevant points in evaluating ideas.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  9. #168
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I don't recall conceding anything to you. I don't think we need nearly as many Federal employees as we have on the books. 800 thousand have been not at work for 2 weeks and the world is still turning. While not conclusive proof of their being no significant ill-effects from a slowdown, it supports rather than opposes my ideas.
    It would be... if the purpose of those non-essential workers was to make the world turn, but it's not. Example: If a biologist work for the gov, is to measure, analyse and report on the quality of water of various lakes in a given territory, a 2 week break will not make the slightest difference on the ability for the world to turn. However, in the long run, the information produced by that biologist has value. Now, by your standard, you will likely argue that this person should be fired... but I submit that you (the generic tax payer) have no competence to asses this.

    Your second line of defense his stating it's the job of elected officials job to decide (I question that, but I go along with it).

    Thus, you retort that you will replace your elected official based on your incompetent opinion if they don't go along with your preconceived, ideological idea that the gov is to big. (your prerogative, but has poor debate value.)

    ---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That some may or may not have said so is irrelevant... but by all means.. focus on the irrelevant points in evaluating ideas.
    It's relevant if the "prediction" which never existed, is repeated by someone else because you floated it earlier in the thread and still persists.
    This is the forge of truth is it not? You want error to persist and spread?

    Error is the only reason why I debate. It's cancer.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
    - Wayne Gretzky

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  11. #169
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    It would be... if the purpose of those non-essential workers was to make the world turn, but it's not. Example: If a biologist work for the gov, is to measure, analyse and report on the quality of water of various lakes in a given territory, a 2 week break will not make the slightest difference on the ability for the world to turn. However, in the long run, the information produced by that biologist has value. Now, by your standard, you will likely argue that this person should be fired... but I submit that you (the generic tax payer) have no competence to asses this.
    You know what? That is a really good point. So, I concede that there are some positions in the government that there won't be an immediate impact due to a two week slowdown, but still be a significant negative effect down the road. But, I stand by my position that there are a significant number of tax payer funded jobs that aren't needed and we could do without.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    You retort that you will replace your elected official based on your incompetent opinion if they don't go along with your preconceived, ideological idea that the gov is to big. (your prerogative, but has poor debate value.)
    Is it not my right and everyone else's to elect people who share their values? Who are you to elevate your values above mine? Who am I to elevate mine above yours? I want officials who rigorously go after wasteful tax payer funded spending, and there is a lot of it in the government, and eliminate it as much as possible. If that means getting rid of tax payer funded employees, then that is a really good thing in my opinion. Regardless, I want wasteful spending of my money to end by any means necessary.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  12. #170
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    ... but still be a significant negative effect down the road. But, I stand by my position that there are a significant number of tax payer funded jobs that aren't needed and we could do without.
    I don't contest that, I even acknowledge that continuous re-evaluation should occur.... I contest that the shutdown provided insights and especially that workers should justify their jobs before returning to work. It's extreme.

    ---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Is it not my right and everyone else's to elect people who share their values?
    Yes, I stated that much by saying it's your prerogative.

    I want officials who rigorously go after wasteful tax payer funded spending, and there is a lot of it in the government, and eliminate it as much as possible. If that means getting rid of tax payer funded employees, then that is a really good thing in my opinion. Regardless, I want wasteful spending of my money to end by any means necessary.
    I'm fine with this, but it's besides the argument of the OP
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  13. #171
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    This minority party claims to have a mandate but has none. They lost the 2012 election - lost the Senate, lost the White House, lost seats in the House and received 1.5 million fewer votes in the House as compared with the Democrats and only retained control of the House due to gerrymandering. Yet this minority is trying to tear the union apart.

    Has this happened since before the Civil War?
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  14. #172
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    This minority party claims to have a mandate but has none. They lost the 2012 election - lost the Senate, lost the White House, lost seats in the House and received 1.5 million fewer votes in the House as compared with the Democrats and only retained control of the House due to gerrymandering. Yet this minority is trying to tear the union apart.

    Has this happened since before the Civil War?
    Perhaps this union needs to be torn apart. Especially if it is going to be controlled by a bunch of short-sighted Liberals who use their manipulation of the poor and ignorant to force their sickening ideology down our throats. I much rather have another Civil War before living under a Liberally dominated society. The Right wouldnt have much to fear from a Civil War. 75-80% of the military is Conservative. Most warriors are Conservative. It wouldn't be much of a problem to kill pretty much every single Liberal in the country if we so desired. Thankfully, there are some controlling factors, one reason I support abortion. Since the overwhelmingly vast majority of abortions are done on Liberal women that would in all liklihood produce more Liberals, that is a good thing.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  15. #173
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    The Right wouldnt have much to fear from a Civil War. 75-80% of the military is Conservative. Most warriors are Conservative.
    Such a battle would never occur before the internal battle among conservative takes place first. It's just a matter of time before moderate, pro-business conservative take back the control of the Republican Party away from the anarchist dead-enders.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  16. #174
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    When the left returns to the middle, then i would be all about the right doing the same.

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    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  17. #175
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    It would be... if the purpose of those non-essential workers was to make the world turn, but it's not. Example: If a biologist work for the gov, is to measure, analyse and report on the quality of water of various lakes in a given territory, a 2 week break will not make the slightest difference on the ability for the world to turn. However, in the long run, the information produced by that biologist has value. Now, by your standard, you will likely argue that this person should be fired... but I submit that you (the generic tax payer) have no competence to asses this.
    No one is arguing that the services don't have any value. The lake inspector is a good example. Lakes and rivers have existed since the beginning of time.. why do we need the fed testing them constantly? Can the state do it or is there some non-profit or industry that would have a stake in it?
    Given that answer(whatever it may be), is it more or less important than Veteran's family death benefits?

    Boom.. we have new insight due to the shut down. I had no idea before the fed was even testing the lakes and rivers, and I had no idea that Veteran's family death benefits were deemed "non-essential".

    So, I disagree that we can not learn anything useful from the shut down, or use it as a means of understanding how we interact with our gov and re-evaluating how we interact with our gov.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  18. #176
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Not one single second before then. Unless the left goes back to the middle, i see a watt coming and greatly welcome it

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  19. #177
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Perhaps this union needs to be torn apart. Especially if it is going to be controlled by a bunch of short-sighted Liberals who use their manipulation of the poor and ignorant to force their sickening ideology down our throats. I much rather have another Civil War before living under a Liberally dominated society. The Right wouldnt have much to fear from a Civil War. 75-80% of the military is Conservative. Most warriors are Conservative. It wouldn't be much of a problem to kill pretty much every single Liberal in the country if we so desired. Thankfully, there are some controlling factors, one reason I support abortion. Since the overwhelmingly vast majority of abortions are done on Liberal women that would in all liklihood produce more Liberals, that is a good thing.
    The thing is that if you have to resort to murder, treason and sedition, then you have no real argument. You have to accept than having a minority view in a democratic republic has it's downfalls for poor ideas. The chance to make your case is largely over and it has been seen to be not fitting in with how the rest of the country wants to run things.

    Wounding the country that you profess to love (but strangely not want to care for) and committing murder/suicide is really a strange solution to living under a 'liberal' society. I mean, it's been pretty liberal for the last half century so I don't know how you just woke up to this.

    I think you should be celebrating differences and diversity rather than trying to make everyone think like you do.

  20. #178
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Like you celebrate differences right? Lol. No thanks. I don't think I can thank a slave master for enslaving me. I love freedom and liberty more than any particular flag. Label that whatever your want, but it doesn't change reality. There are a lot of people who feel like i do and there is a tipping point that is rapidly approaching. We won't allow this country and our freedoms and liberties to be destroyed and sized by you and your ideology. You would love to enslave us and have us continue to pay your bills, but we won't put up with that for long.



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    ---------- Post added at 10:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------

    I'm sure Hitler viewed the people that rose up against him as murderous, treasonous, and seditious as well.

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  21. #179
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The lake inspector is a good example.
    And it's just that, I have no idea if it's a true example: I only created it for it's illustrative qualities.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Boom.. we have new insight due to the shut down. I had no idea before the fed was even testing the lakes and rivers, and I had no idea that Veteran's family death benefits were deemed "non-essential". So, I disagree that we can not learn anything useful from the shut down, or use it as a means of understanding how we interact with our gov and re-evaluating how we interact with our gov.
    Boom indeed! it's a very inefficient way to "learn". To answer your question in the title, it's very bad in that way.

    ---------- Post added at 10:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    There are a lot of people who feel like i do and there is a tipping point that is rapidly approaching.
    It seems to me you live in closed quarters with not enough people with diverse views around you.
    Case in point, there is no way you can support that we are approaching a point of revolution.

    It's easier to find support that points to your mode of thinking, as one that is dragging the conservative movement down.

    For instance, Tea party numbers are low as ever.

    What support do you have?
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    DDR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post

    It seems to me you live in closed quarters with not enough people with diverse views around you.
    Think what you want. No sweat off my back. Though I could say the same about you if you actually think Conservatives, real Conservatives...not the traitors / cowards who voted for that bill last night, are going to be ruled by Liberalism or anyone mental disorder that passes for ideology now-a-days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Case in point, there is no way you can support that we are approaching a point of revolution.
    What type of support you want for that? A poll ? Sure, while we are at it, let's take a poll on how many people would love to assassinate Obama...or how many people securely hate their kids. There are some things that polls won't accurately reflect for one reason or another.

    What i do know is how i feel and think and how a lot of my friends, mainly Marines, feel. We are more than willing to die to stop tyrannical Liberalism...or tyrannical anything. .

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    It's lot's easier to find support that points to your mode of thinking one that is dragging the conservative movement down.
    Of course it is....if you really on polls that pander to your side of thinking...our if you compare a topic that can be polled versus one that you cannot reasonably expect honest replies to for whatever reason.

    If you polled a bunch a closeted bisexual men if they liked having sex with men, the results wouldn't reflect reality. If you polled a bunch of high school males if they wee still virgins, same thing.

    Shame, pride, caution stop people from bring honest about things sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    CNN is not a reliable source of anything, apart for outright lies and toting the Liberal agenda. It certainly isn't the place to look for unbiased viewpoints in the Tea Party or anything Conservative related.



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    ---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------

    Another example of how polls aren't reliable: as a Maine, you are polled, anonymously, quite frequently about various things. Nearly EVERYONE less their ass off on those polls because even though higher ups won't know who specifically said what, there is a consequence to telling the truth. When asked, "Do you have respect for your command on a personal level" you don't...at all....but answer yes. The reason is simple: if 90% of the battalion said no...well, there would be hell to pay. Also, answering no would accomplish anything positive...so there is no sense in making your life harder. Same with regards to revolution. Why answer a poll"yes" to that type of question? It could hurt and couldn't possibly help...so, it should never be done. However, when the time comes, we well be ready to destroy Liberalism and Liberals in general

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