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  1. #301
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I have been. Take my last answer in post 296 for example.
    post answers nothing I asked

    ---------- Post added at 07:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I think the mistake you're making and why I can't agree with you is dividing these into opposing absolutes, rather than how different sides view each element and to what degree.
    I asked what those words mean to you, and your response was inadequate.

    ---------- Post added at 07:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You define things in sound bites. I get it, that works especially well for your base.
    Your prejudice for who you think I represent is obvious, however, for being the understanding, inclusive person you claim to be,

    why can't you figure out I'm not a republican, don't support Trump, am agnostic on religion, believe in free speech and a representative democracy,

    WTH base do see me a part of cause I have told you repeatedly the dem and rep parties both suck and are rapidly bankrupting the US!

    Near as I can tell, just because I see PC as harming the people it supposedly is helping, nothing else I say matters much, you still put me in a with rep's, even though they don't enjoy my support...

  2. #302
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    understanding, inclusive person you claim to be,
    When did I claim that?

    ---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    post answers nothing I asked
    Look at the last line. It's not hard to figure out from there how my views differ from yours. Your fixation on some strict definition, for example. I see things as more fluid.

    You say conservatives are for "free speech", for example, do you have any qualifiers for that?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #303
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    When did I claim that?
    It's a common liberal democrat position.
    If you say you are not understanding nor inclusive,

    I retract the claim

    ---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Look at the last line. It's not hard to figure out from there how my views differ from yours.
    Yes they differ, I wasn't looking to converse with some one that shared my view at the moment. I find it interesting to hear divergent opinions.

    I was trying to see how they differ in concept as apposed to a specific example.

    ---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Your fixation on some strict definition, for example. I see things as more fluid.
    I definitely did not ask for a strict definition, quite the opposite. I asked what those terms mean to YOU. Explain to me your "more fluid" ideas.

    That you continually evade just answering such a simple question (after asking me to go first) is odd....
    Last edited by Belthazor; January 23rd, 2019 at 04:56 PM.

  4. #304
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The gov shut down for various political reasons. This thread is not about those reasons. Here I want to discuss another aspect/effect of the shut down.
    Currently "non-essential" gov workers are not working. My question is.

    Question to opponent.Given our current financial situation, specifically the fact that the gov spends more than it takes in, should each non-essential worker/department be forced to justify it's existence before being brought back?

    --Expanded
    Basically, the gov shuts down and the sky doesn't fall. The stock market doesn't crash. The world doesn't end. What does occur is that we are generally one step further towards balancing our budget (as far as actual expenditures) and shrinking the size of gov. Maybe we should re-think about how the gov is applied to our lives, after all if we can live without them.. why do we need them?

    DISCUSS!!


    *Counter point - The shut down is harming all those that are not working because of it. This is bad and should be avoided.
    -Answer- This is invalid because if we accept that as a bases for maintaining a gov agency, then we would never be allowed to shut down any gov job/agency no matter how useless or counter productive they become. That point is inherently flawed as a "principle" and should not be used.
    Figure may as well throw a post or two out there while ODN is still here....

    1) I'd like to think every employee of every organization goes through periodic review to determine need. Not just public workers.
    2) With that being said, I think the implied argument you are making is that we should just get rid of most of these non-essential public workers (or their positions).

    To that point, I'd disagree. From a strictly bottom line sort of evaluation, maybe. However, people who possess these jobs are making a good-faith effort to benefit society in some manner (no different than any other worker in any other sector/market). So, the idea we should just fire a few hundred thousand people is kind of cold and cynical. Now, if you tell me we could phase out certain positions over the course of several years. Allow current employees to have time to seek other employment, receive training for new skills, etc, then I think you and I could agree.

    No, the sky isn't falling when the govt shuts down. But, as you've seen, lots of people's lives have been heavily disrupted through no fault of their own. Their only crime was taking a public job. I could think of much worse things people could do and, while I curse and swear at the DMV and most other public agencies and while I often claim to want public employees to endure cruel and violent deaths, the truth is I actually wish no ill towards people doing their best in being productive human beings.

    I guess this harkens back to a conversation I had with my dad when I was a teen. He was hired to manage an office and essentially they hired him as a hatchet man. He was talking about some guy who was playing games on his PC when he was supposed to be working. I made some remark like, "Great, just get rid of him." My dad laid into me and reminded me that while that guy may not be the best worker, he had a family and others who depended on him. Firing him may be the right thing to do for the business, but sometimes it isn't the only consideration. So, I am not saying I disagree that we can probably eliminate a lot of govt positions. I just believe any sort of purge should be done in a slow and methodical manner which considers the employees who will eventually be displaced.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  6. #305
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    @ Iblsd.
    I don't disagree, at all. A preferable way to shrink gov is through some controlled planned way.

    That said, I really tend to feel like that is never going to be the way it happens. We aren't going to slowly peel the Band-aid back, instead it will probably need to be ripped of violently. To compare it to a private sector job, well that kind of thing happens all the fricken time. Companies go out of business, people get laid off, and sometimes, it is the gov fault.

    Like, the abrupt gov shutdown of off shore drilling. I was out of work for a year. Many people abruptly lost their job, or their hours. So to think that gov workers are or should be some special case immune to the whims of the market, is absurd and doesn't really gain sympathy from me personally. I mean, in my business there are certain necessary risks. It seems to me that this is just one of the inherent risks of being a gov worker. The only difference being that they will eventually get paid, where as regular people are just out of luck.

    So, yea.. my sympathy is limited. So call me when the shut down lasts longer than the gov shutting down the gulf, and then I may start to feel bad for them.. the gov certainly didn't show us any sympathy. ... But maybe that is too de-personalized. Maybe that treats the gov workers like the gov itself, but they kinda are.
    To serve man.

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  8. #306
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    I definitely did not ask for a strict definition, quite the opposite. I asked what those terms mean to YOU. Explain to me your "more fluid" ideas.

    That you continually evade just answering such a simple question (after asking me to go first) is odd....

    Like I said, it's complicated and not easy to define. I don't agree with you definitions and I've given examples.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #307
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It's a common liberal democrat position.
    If you say you are not understanding nor inclusive,

    I retract the claim
    So, as a conservative you don't like to understand people? (in this instance) Are you saying that you're not even curious as to why people may act differently than you? That you shouldn't have to? Or is it just when some type of accommodation on your part is required?

    Here's a recent example of what I'd consider understanding. When I travel a certain direction on the subway here there's a stop that has a stand with particularly good pretzels. This last time I got off I noticed that people were randomly standing in front of the stand (not really in a line) and it looked like they were waiting for something. I also didn't see anyone behind the counter so I figured maybe they had to step away for a second. I then noticed a movement behind the counter and saw a pair of arms fly up in the air. I craned my neck and saw that the young man was engaged in prayer. Prayer rug and all, he was obviously engaged in one of his 5 times a day things, whatever, Islamic/Muslim/middle eastern stuff. Everyone stood by quietly - checking their phones or whatever -and waited for their pretzel, or hot dog, etc. Now, what should I have done? (What would you have done?) Pounded on the counter and demand to be served? "You should serve us, where's your manager? I'm gonna get you fired" or some such blathering nonsense. I suppose I could've walked away without my pretzel. (not happening) No, I stood by quietly for the all of 3 minutes it took him to finish. I'd call that understanding. I understand that that is something that is important to him and that my few minutes of inconvenience was acceptable. What would you call it? Poor customer service?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #308
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Like I said, it's complicated and not easy to define.
    You make it sounds as though you wait to see a given situation to see how you feel about it as apposed to any actual criteria of right/wrong?

    ---------- Post added at 09:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So, as a conservative you don't like to understand people? (in this instance) Are you saying that you're not even curious as to why people may act differently than you? That you shouldn't have to? Or is it just when some type of accommodation on your part is required?
    The last several post in particular ALL I have been doing is trying to understand another's position (namely yours and it hasn't been easy to drag it out of you).

    ---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Here's a recent example of what I'd consider understanding. When I travel a certain direction on the subway here there's a stop that has a stand with particularly good pretzels. This last time I got off I noticed that people were randomly standing in front of the stand (not really in a line) and it looked like they were waiting for something. I also didn't see anyone behind the counter so I figured maybe they had to step away for a second. I then noticed a movement behind the counter and saw a pair of arms fly up in the air. I craned my neck and saw that the young man was engaged in prayer. Prayer rug and all, he was obviously engaged in one of his 5 times a day things, whatever, Islamic/Muslim/middle eastern stuff. Everyone stood by quietly - checking their phones or whatever -and waited for their pretzel, or hot dog, etc. Now, what should I have done? (What would you have done?) Pounded on the counter and demand to be served? "You should serve us, where's your manager? I'm gonna get you fired" or some such blathering nonsense. I suppose I could've walked away without my pretzel. (not happening) No, I stood by quietly for the all of 3 minutes it took him to finish. I'd call that understanding. I understand that that is something that is important to him and that my few minutes of inconvenience was acceptable. What would you call it? Poor customer service?


    I probably would have kept on walking and got my pretzel somewhere else or, more likely done without. Of course the business in question wants neither of those to happen.


    Aside: This example is one of the reasons most minimum wage jobs are going to be replaced by AI and robots in the very near future. They are being replaced right now and it is going to accelerate going forward.
    From the employer point of view it's a no brainer....

  11. #309
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @ Iblsd.
    I don't disagree, at all. A preferable way to shrink gov is through some controlled planned way.

    That said, I really tend to feel like that is never going to be the way it happens. We aren't going to slowly peel the Band-aid back, instead it will probably need to be ripped of violently. To compare it to a private sector job, well that kind of thing happens all the fricken time. Companies go out of business, people get laid off, and sometimes, it is the gov fault.

    Like, the abrupt gov shutdown of off shore drilling. I was out of work for a year. Many people abruptly lost their job, or their hours. So to think that gov workers are or should be some special case immune to the whims of the market, is absurd and doesn't really gain sympathy from me personally. I mean, in my business there are certain necessary risks. It seems to me that this is just one of the inherent risks of being a gov worker. The only difference being that they will eventually get paid, where as regular people are just out of luck.

    So, yea.. my sympathy is limited. So call me when the shut down lasts longer than the gov shutting down the gulf, and then I may start to feel bad for them.. the gov certainly didn't show us any sympathy. ... But maybe that is too de-personalized. Maybe that treats the gov workers like the gov itself, but they kinda are.
    I guess I'd prefer to treat others as I'd like to be treated rather than treating them to my hardships. I had a similar discussion once with a Brit over global warming. He wanted to do whatever it took to fix the environment. I asked him about all the jobs which would be lost. He shrugged and said most would eventually be trained for new jobs. I'm sorry, that's no way to dictate policy. I am all for shrinking the govt. I do not believe the ends justify the means when the means will end up disrupting hundreds of thousands of people. So, we see this same sort of callous attitude from the left and the right and I don't think it leads to solutions. And I don't think the things I want/desire or worth any price.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  13. #310
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You make it sounds as though you wait to see a given situation to see how you feel about it as apposed to any actual criteria of right/wrong?
    Sure.

    Beyond, of course, what might be considered out of place or unusual. For example, if I were walking down the street and a body was lying across the sidewalk I would take notice of that as being odd ('wrong', I suppose, in that isn't something you'd normally see or that someone would normally do)

    ---------- Post added at 02:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    The last several post in particular ALL I have been doing is trying to understand another's position (namely yours and it hasn't been easy to drag it out of you).
    Like I said, it's easier in the Fox News/talk radio world where nuance is not needed. Is this really what you meant when you said "understanding and inclusion" in regards to typical characteristics of liberal thinking?
    Seems like it was something different.

    ---------- Post added at 02:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Of course the business in question wants neither of those to happen.
    Let's assume it's his cart. His religious practice is more important to him than a few sales.

    ---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    I probably would have kept on walking and got my pretzel somewhere else or, more likely done without.
    Sure, but you really wouldn't have cared, right? Would you have never stopped there again?

    ---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    Aside: This example is one of the reasons most minimum wage jobs are going to be replaced by AI and robots in the very near future. They are being replaced right now and it is going to accelerate going forward.
    No argument from me there. Jobs like those are worthless, only a little above unpaid internships. Good riddance. I love the self-serve checkout lanes at stores and kiosks in fast food restaurants. Like banning smoking from restaurants they can't be installed fast enough for me.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #311
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure.
    Now I may be understanding your position better. How you feel about a given situation has a great deal of affect on whether you think it is right/wrong.

    ---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Like I said, it's easier in the Fox News/talk radio world where nuance is not needed.
    Yes you sure do keep saying that, though I have never watched Fox news, EVER!
    Many yrs ago I did find Limbaugh amusing occasionally. A radio station here plays a 1 minute sound bite from him in the morning.

    What is your fixation on grouping me in this way?

    ---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Let's assume it's his cart. His religious practice is more important to him than a few sales.[COLOR="Silver"]
    But it is NOT his "cart". He agreed to do something (work) in exchange for money from his employer. Now he wants to set conditions on that agreement. Some jobs it would be ok, some not.

    ---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, but you really wouldn't have cared, right? Would you have never stopped there again?[COLOR="Silver"]
    I would have barely given it a passing glance. Long line, move on, the reason why there was a long line doesn't matter much. If they had good pretzels I would go there again.

    ---------- Post added at 06:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No argument from me there. Jobs like those are worthless, only a little above unpaid internships. Good riddance. I love the self-serve checkout lanes at stores and kiosks in fast food restaurants. Like banning smoking from restaurants they can't be installed fast enough for me.
    "Good riddance"?
    What shall high school kids/unskilled labor do for money now? Back to agriculture work (oh, those are being replace as well)
    Jobs like those are only "worthless" to people that make more.

    Most people in the entire world (and many in the US) would like to have one of those jobs if they still existed...



    Aside:
    Are you aware you are probably a 1%'er in terms of income/lifestyle vs the rest of the world population?

    https://www.investopedia.com/article...cent-world.asp
    "Ranking by Income
    According to the Global Rich List, a website that brings awareness to worldwide income disparities, an income of $32,400 a year will allow you to make the cut....:"
    Last edited by Belthazor; January 24th, 2019 at 06:04 PM.

  15. #312
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    But it is NOT his "cart". He agreed to do something (work) in exchange for money from his employer. Now he wants to set conditions on that agreement. Some jobs it would be ok, some not.[COLOR="Silver"]
    Ok, since this line of reasoning is irrelevant let's assume his employer is ok with it (though it could just as easily been his cart, not sure how you would know that it wasn't)

    ---------- Post added at 04:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post

    I would have barely given it a passing glance. Long line, move on, the reason why there was a long line doesn't matter much. If they had good pretzels I would go there again.
    So, would you call that "understanding"?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #313
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    let's assume his employer is ok with it
    His employer can set whatever policy he likes (assuming it's legal).

    ---------- Post added at 07:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So, would you call that "understanding"?
    I wouldn't say it is "understanding" nor "not understanding". Choosing to not wait in a line has no opportunity for "understanding" in the way you mean it.
    Now if I went to the counter ahead of the line and thru a fit, that would probably show a lack of "understanding".
    Last edited by Squatch347; January 28th, 2019 at 05:24 AM. Reason: tag fix

 

 
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