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  1. #101
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    If we were going by your definition of extortion (an incorrect one) then the obvious answer would be that they are trying to extort a blanket and irresponsible change in the debt ceiling and government spending by withholding debate and negotiation. Thus, holding the national best interests hostage.

    If either party is in violation of the constitution, it would be the Liberals who are refusing to even come to the table and discuss things.
    We are going by my definition of course, since I never meant to say extortion literally.

    The difference between what I contend to be the ransom for Republican's and what you contend to be the ransom for Democrats is that you need to add mustard to reality to make it look like something that holds water while I simply state the facts plainly. Why? because you argue from a position of weakness.

    I state: Republican's are trying to extract (Extort) concessions out of Democrats on Obamacare
    You state: Trying to extort a blanket and irresponsible change in the debt ceiling and government spending.

    The reality is, raising the debt ceiling means allowing for payment for expenditures already approved by Congress!

    I don't need to add theatrics when I paint what Republicans want... but you sure do when describing Democrats.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    We are going by my definition of course, since I never meant to say extortion literally.
    A retraction! Never thought I would live to see the day when the left makes one of these. =] I kid, I kid

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    The difference between what I contend to be the ransom for Republican's and what you contend to be the ransom for Democrats is that you need to add mustard to reality to make it look like something that holds water while I simply state the facts plainly. Why? because you argue from a position of weakness.

    I state: Republican's are trying to extract (Extort) concessions out of Democrats on Obamacare
    You state: Trying to extort a blanket and irresponsible change in the debt ceiling and government spending.
    I don't see any particular weakness in my argument. I think what we are doing here is engaging in a debate over semantics more than anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    The reality is, raising the debt ceiling means allowing for payment for expenditures already approved by Congress!
    No, it allows for the continued accumulation of debt. Something that Obama is exceedingly good at. Is it your position that there is no way to possibly pay our bills without raising the amount in which we can borrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    I don't need to add theatrics when I paint what Republicans want... but you sure do when describing Democrats.
    Considering that you concede that Republicans aren't actually engaging in any sort of extortion, yet you persist in using the term, I would say that you are, indeed, engaging in theatrics, my friend. =]
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  3. #103
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    No, it allows for the continued accumulation of debt. Something that Obama is exceedingly good at. Is it your position that there is no way to possibly pay our bills without raising the amount in which we can borrow?
    No? NO???

    Why no? when in reality it's both! It's paying for expenditures already approved by raising the accumulation of debt. Both are true for heaven's sake. You say NO??? You can't explain the Republican's position without resorting to playing games with reality... something I don't need to do.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    No? NO???

    Why no? when in reality it's both! It's paying for expenditures already approved by raising the accumulation of debt. Both are true for heaven's sake. You say NO??? You can't explain the Republican's position without resorting to playing games with reality... something I don't need to do.
    Well, here is where you are wrong.

    The debt ceiling raising simply allows for more and more debt to be piled on top of the near 17 trillion that already exists and further lets Liberals scream "We need to pay the bills that we already have@!@@@@@!!!" It is absolutely no different than taking out another loan, or getting another credit card to address your personal finance situation when you are several thousands in debt, all while not addressing or fixing the underlining problems that exist and cause you to be so massively in debt to begin with.

    At some point, we have to handle these underlining causes (massive government spending, massive entitlement programs, etc) and bring our house in order. How many trillions of dollars are you willing to pile on top of what we have before you are willing to try to deal with the issues?
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  5. #105
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Well, here is where you are wrong.

    The debt ceiling raising simply allows for more and more debt to be piled on top of the near 17 trillion that already exists and further lets Liberals scream "We need to pay the bills that we already have@!@@@@@!!!" It is absolutely no different than taking out another loan, or getting another credit card to address your personal finance situation when you are several thousands in debt, all while not addressing or fixing the underlining problems that exist and cause you to be so massively in debt to begin with.

    At some point, we have to handle these underlining causes (massive government spending, massive entitlement programs, etc) and bring our house in order. How many trillions of dollars are you willing to pile on top of what we have before you are willing to try to deal with the issues?
    Uhg, I know it's to raise the amount it can borrow... but it's borrowing to pay for what was already approved in the past and you deny that. It's staggering. I have nothing else to add on the matter.

    (Removed)
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  6. #106
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Uhg, I know it's to raise the amount it can borrow... but it's borrowing to pay for what was already approved in the past and you deny that. It's staggering. I have nothing else to add on the matter.
    It is staggering that Liberals want to:

    -Raise the debt ceiling to borrow more money to pay the bills and thus go further into debt.
    -Not address the underlining cause that causes us to have the budget issues that we have and thus eliminate the need to have to borrow any more money for this purpose in the future.
    -Which will lead to an increase in the amount of debt that we have.
    -Which leads to needing to borrow more money to pay the bills and thus go further into debt.

    It's cyclic. It's irresponsible. It's typical Liberalism.

    (Removed)
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  7. #107
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    It is staggering that Liberals want to:

    -Raise the debt ceiling to borrow more money to pay the bills and thus go further into debt.
    -Not address the underlining cause that causes us to have the budget issues that we have and thus eliminate the need to have to borrow any more money for this purpose in the future.
    -Which will lead to an increase in the amount of debt that we have.
    -Which leads to needing to borrow more money to pay the bills and thus go further into debt.

    It's cyclic. It's irresponsible. It's typical Liberalism.
    Alas Someguy, if only the debate was about budget, but it's not, Republican's are tying increasing the Federal debt limit unless there are changes in health care policy and proposing changes that does little to nothing for said health care policy to cost less... in fact, Republican's proposed changes are to remove revenue streams, aggravating the cost/spending imbalance. (at the very least, that's what they proposed in repealing the medical device tax.)

    Your rant above bears nothing into the current situation.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  8. #108
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Alas Someguy, if only the debate was about budget, but it's not, Republican's are tying increasing the Federal debt limit unless there are changes in health care policy and proposing changes that does little to nothing for said health care policy to cost less... in fact, Republican's proposed changes are to remove revenue streams, aggravating the cost/spending imbalance.
    Eliminating Obamacare would strike about 2 Trillion from the books over the course of 10 years (about 4 times higher than promised). That is a significant savings. In addition, it would allow the middle class to keep their wealth and use it productively in society or save it for self-sufficiency instead of it being confiscated by the government. Another intangible benefit would be keeping the government, the most inefficient organization in the world, out of our personal decision making and allow us to pursue our own acceptable level of risk with respect to health care.

    http://www.burr.senate.gov/public/in...f-f41ad3ed94c8
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillm...than-promised/
    http://blog.heritage.org/2011/04/06/...than-expected/

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Your rant above bears nothing into the current situation. All you have is posturing and rethoric.
    Strong and unnecessary rhetoric on your end. =]
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  9. #109
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Eliminating Obamacare...
    As I stated before, raising the debt cealing is to pay for what was already approved by Congress. Obamacare was voted into law by Congress.
    You refuse to acknowledge it. You say no.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    As I stated before, raising the debt cealing is to pay for what was already approved by Congress. Obamacare was voted into law by Congress.
    You refuse to acknowledge it. You say no.
    Obamacare was voted on strict partisan lines using Parliamentary games to get it through the Senate. Now, Democrats have the audacity to cry foul when Boehner and the Republicans are using parliamentary procedure to unravel it? Does reconciliation ring a bell?

    "The amendment bill, The Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act, was also passed by the House on March 21, by the Senate via reconciliation on March 25, and was signed by President Obama on March 30"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient...are_Act#Senate .

    So, the fact is that the Republicans are resisting paying for something that they and their constituents never consented to paying. Yes, Democrats had won the election prior to the ACA being passed. It is no coincidence that the Democrats lost the House in the election immediately following its passage. Now, the consequence is that the ACA may get defunded. Had Democrats done a better job of compromising the ACA in the first place, they wouldn't be going through this now. Had they not passed such a blatantly partisan bill using parliamentary chicanery, they may not be going through this now. For Obama to act like raising the debt ceiling is duty beyond compromise is hilarious. For the Democrats and Obama to act indignant when the Republican use the budget process to, gasp, undo the budget fiasco that they believe is the ACA, is laughable. I mean, the Democrats, by passing the ACA via reconciliation essentially are conceding that the ACA is absolutely a budget issue. If Republicans shouldn't deal with during budget negotiations, then when should they deal with it?

    I mean, if you're a Democrat and love the ACA, that's fine. No problem. Just don't buy into your party spokeshole's lines and throw around words like "extortion" as though the Republicans were behaving like felons or in some sort of unseemly manner. The Republicans are doing exactly what the Constitution permits them to do and they are doing exactly what their constituents want them to do. I hate to break this to some of you, but the Tea Party and its members and actual people who vote and have real opinions. Labeling someone as a "Tea Partier" does not marginalize them or diminish their views.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  12. #111
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Yes, it's odd that. I can't explain their influence other than perhaps traditional conservatives are being threatened in their gerrymandered districts to vote a particular way or face a difficult 2014. The latest news I haven't absorbed is that this was planned since last year so perhaps the source is there and not the TP.
    I think you are giving undo credit to the Congressional Tea Partiers. The influence is coming from the base of the Republican party that is sick of the John McCain RINO types who are eagerly surrendering to the left without fighting for the people's beliefs. The right is mobilized and pissed off. They deserve the credit for scaring a backbone into Congressional Republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I thought Clint (and his empty stool, lol) was your hero.
    How did you arrive to this conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    But no the left is not engaging in extortion; they are just refusing to submit to it. They have already passed a sequester level budget, have been reported to obstruct 20 debates, yet continue to refuse to take yes for an answer.
    You are repeating CNN talking points, but aren't making a relevant point. Yes to what exactly are Republicans refusing to take an answer for?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    It means that it's unlikely to garner support for it's defunding. Especially on the day it started.
    From who? According to a Pew Research Center poll it that showed "more Americans disapprove than approve of the law by a 53 percent to 42 percent margin." Seems like this "Signature bill" of yours which is "Unlikely to garner support" already has garnered quite a bit of support for its defunding / changing.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Well, they should change the law through proper channels so that those Americans that do want it, get their voices heard. Hence Boehner should hold the vote.
    They are using their proper channels and leverage that the Constitution permits them. If you hold that they are not, you need to support that claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Of course they don't want it. Who would want to pay for something they'd been getting for free!?
    The lower class will STILL be getting it for free. The upper class tends to self insurance and never would qualify for Medicare anyway, so they wouldn't be getting anything for free. That leaves only the middle class to suffer. If they don't want to buy health insurance and want to take a risk with their health, they should be able to. Who are you to tell them otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    The right are the ones bringing down the country so that people can't have medical insurance.
    Please support or retract this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Looks like the right gets to hurt the American people either way. It is better that they are forced to operate within established democratic procedures no matter how they want to do it. The left is defending a constitutionally implemented law.
    I always get a nice little chuckle when Liberals claim to be defending something Constitutionally based.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Have you taken a look at the polls recently? Now that we know that some Republicans refused to give up their own salaries, I think 2014 will be very interesting indeed.
    Source? Because I found that the majority of charitable giving during this time has been done by Republicans:
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWashingPost
    “I shouldn’t get a congressional salary while other federal employees are denied the ability to go to work,” Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) said in a 40-second YouTube video. “I’m going to take my salary during the government shutdown and donate it to the Wounded Warrior Project.”

    "Rep. Rob Wittman (R-Va.) said via Twitter that he’d decline his pay “for every day the government is shut down,”

    "Rep. Brad Wenstrup (R-Ohio) also plans to donate his pay to wounded warriors and Cincinnati’s Freestore Foodbank. “I can’t accept a salary while veterans and government employees are left empty-handed. It’s not appropriate and it’s not fair,” he said in a statement."

    "Rep. Michael McCaul (R-Tex.), another wealthy member, said his shutdown pay would go to the March of Dimes."

    "McConnell plans to donate his to a Louisville charity. House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) plans to put his pay in escrow, "

    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...nate-lawmakers

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    The speaker still has to call it, I believe. Besides, if Boehner wants the vote to win for an unclean-CR then why wouldn't the call the vote?
    The Speaker has called several votes to restore funding to parts of the government....of which, the Senate is refusing to vote on and Obummer has promised to veto. Seems to me that your peeps are the ones playing obstructionist and intentionally harming the people.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Well, if you believe that, then I hope you will be just as generous when the Democrats do the same.
    If they actually follow the Constitution, then why would I care? Unlike the left, I don't cry foul when the rules don't work in my favor.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  13. #112
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The Republicans are doing exactly what the Constitution permits them to do and they are doing exactly what their constituents want them to do. I hate to break this to some of you, but the Tea Party and its members and actual people who vote and have real opinions. Labeling someone as a "Tea Partier" does not marginalize them or diminish their views.
    I actually love the Tea Party and how it's wreaking havoc in the Republican Party. They are very real people with real views and with a little luck, they just might damage the Republican brand so bad, that they will not regain power for another generation... Republican's entered this crisis without a plan, without a leader, and without an exit strategy... it will be interesting to see how this devolves. Maybe Sarah Palin will post a way out of this mess from her Facebook page.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  14. #113
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    I actually love the Tea Party and how it's wreaking havoc in the Republican Party. They are very real people with real views and with a little luck, they just might damage the Republican brand so bad, that they will not regain power for another generation... Republican's entered this crisis without a plan, without a leader, and without an exit strategy... it will be interesting to see how this devolves. Maybe Sarah Palin will post a way out of this mess from her Facebook page.
    All other things aside, I don't think you realize how incredibly destructive such unilateral power for any one party would be. The destruction of the Republican party would be disastrous as there would be absolutely no check on the Democrats. Consider the situations in cities and states where they rule unchecked. Its really not a pretty sight.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

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  16. #114
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    I actually love the Tea Party and how it's wreaking havoc in the Republican Party.
    It is changing the establishment Republicans, to be sure. And, perhaps, shifting the party a bit more to the right, but considering how far Obama has pushed the entire Democrat party to the left, I really dont see it as being a net negative. If anything, these two acts help polarize the nation and give third parties a greater likelihood of of attracting middle of the road types from both sides of the aisle. As a Libertarian, this is a good thing in my eyes. I'm just happy to see the right not bowing and scraping to Obama anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Maybe Sarah Palin will post a way out of this mess from her Facebook page.
    You know, I never understood the Sarah Palin thing. Why did so many on the right like her so much? I find her annoying and frankly not to bright.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  17. #115
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    There are three points we are discussing:

    1. Whether extortion is the way to do things; that a minority group should be allowed to shutdown government just because they don't like a law that they have repeatedly fail to stall.
    2. That this is "a bad thing" (it's a bad way to conduct business in ODN, I think you agree there, but do you further agree it is bad form in Government).
    3. Whether the power of the purse argument is relevant, given that there are enough votes to pass a clean bill.
    1) Is false, the Republicans are the majority in the house.
    2) My objection to your actions on ODN was that our relationship here is not defined the same as the relationship the house has to the senate.
    3) Your point is irrelevant, because the house is operating properly (IE not breaking any rules or doing anything illegal).


    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    Because if you cannot support your own claim, there is no reason to conclude that:
    Conclude that we should re-evaluate based on effects.


    Your logic doesn’t follow. See following.

    I concede that no one ever said anything bad would occur if the gov shut down.

    Given that, it means that there was no negative reason offered to the Rep that would cause them to NOT shut down the gov (after all, no one said any negative would come from it.. right?).

    I still hold that we should re-examine the departments based on the effects of the shut down. .. As there is no negative(see concession), and no one claiming any negative(see concession), then we have a stronger argument that the EFFECT of the shut down justifies a second look at the justification for these “Non-essential” jobs/departments.

    See, the OP does not rest or rely on people doom saying before the shut down. It relies on the effects of the shut down not being negative enough or conversely offering new insight on exactly what we will be doing without and it’s effects.

    You over reach with your conclusion. (again) I happily concede that no one forecast any negative effect of a gov shut down.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    We are going by my definition of course, since I never meant to say extortion literally.
    Hahah! I’m sure SomeGuy was completely confused by your alternate language usage.
    You and JJ have simply re-defined a word to try and name call, without actually dealing with the idea and content. .. It’s a shame.


    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    es, Democrats had won the election prior to the ACA being passed. It is no coincidence that the Democrats lost the House in the election immediately following its passage. Now, the consequence is that the ACA may get defunded.
    No objection here.. it’s just a really great point. It’s almost like.. that’s how the political process works or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by SOMEGUY
    You know, I never understood the Sarah Palin thing. Why did so many on the right like her so much?
    I think the appeal is this. If you think any average real person could do a better job than the professional politicians ... Sarah Palin is your girl.
    To serve man.

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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    1) Is false, the Republicans are the majority in the house.
    2) My objection to your actions on ODN was that our relationship here is not defined the same as the relationship the house has to the senate.
    3) Your point is irrelevant, because the house is operating properly (IE not breaking any rules or doing anything illegal).
    1. By minority group, I mean the TP-caucus.
    2. That wasn't the lesson. The lesson was how being forced to do something against your will is unpleasant.
    3. It's operating legally but it's hardly proper conduct.

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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    1. By minority group, I mean the TP-caucus.
    2. That wasn't the lesson. The lesson was how being forced to do something against your will is unpleasant.
    3. It's operating legally but it's hardly proper conduct.
    1) Irrelevant. - They may be a minority in votes(TP-caucus) they have influenced the MAJORITY to act as the MAJORITY are. So we are still not talking about a minority running the gov.
    2) Irrelevant - That it is "unpleasant" may be true, but that does not negate the fact that, that is how the gov was set up to act. The house is SUPPOSED to keep the other branches in check in regards to spending.. that is INHERENTLY going to be "unpleasant" to the other branches when they become bent on spending no matter what.
    3) ... irrelevant. - "Proper conduct" is defined by "legality". What you are really talking about is disapproving of the political practices and tactics when it doesn't fit your agenda. (see IBELSD's point on that). If it is legal your idea of "proper" is irrelevant.
    To serve man.

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  21. #118
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Given that, it means that there was no negative reason offered to the Rep that would cause them to NOT shut down the gov (after all, no one said any negative would come from it.. right?).
    While I appreciate your retraction, I still push back with the same intensity against your logical gymnastics. You've gone from saying it was predicted the sky would fall, to saying it was predicted nothing negative would come out of it.

    So naturally, I Challenge to support a claim. you on it: Please show that is was predicted that nothing negative would come out of a gov. shutdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I still hold that we should re-examine the departments based on the effects of the shut down. .. As there is no negative(see concession), and no one claiming any negative(see concession)
    But there certainly are negatives, just not sky shattering consequences. The shutdown irritates most people at various degree and is a major disruption for a great many people. It's also costing hundreds of millions a day!

    You are putting way to much stock on the "effect". Example: a car company probably can go by without it's quality inspector a few days and it's quite possible the effects will not be felt by anyone. However, if the quality inspector is fired as a result of that observation, quality problems are bound to happen sooner or later (likely sooner).

    You jumped to conclusion after only a few days!
    Last edited by Vandaler; October 8th, 2013 at 04:25 PM.
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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    1) Irrelevant. - They may be a minority in votes(TP-caucus) they have influenced the MAJORITY to act as the MAJORITY are. So we are still not talking about a minority running the gov.
    It's entirely relevant. Even though they may be a small caucus, the gerrymandering of Republican seats have given rise to challengers in moderate-Republican districts. And to that point, the Republican House doesn't fully represent the electorate (also due to gerrymandering) and therefore are a true national minority. They are also a minority in public opinion on this debate and will be a minority in fact if the polls about 2014 are correct.


    2) Irrelevant - That it is "unpleasant" may be true, but that does not negate the fact that, that is how the gov was set up to act. The house is SUPPOSED to keep the other branches in check in regards to spending.. that is INHERENTLY going to be "unpleasant" to the other branches when they become bent on spending no matter what.
    Yes, but this shutdown (and the sequester and the future default) aren't just unpleasant to the other branches. If it were, who would really care other than political geeks. Instead, WIC, the program I know you feel is unecessary, is harming children:

    Over 8.9 million moms and kids under five living near or below the poverty line rely on the program’s supplemental vouchers for healthy food, breastfeeding support, infant formula and other necessities dispensed at clinics nationwide.
    (source)


    So you are very wrong (and clearly uninformed) about the actual effects of what is happening. It is most definitely not confined to just the other branches of government.

    3) ... irrelevant. - "Proper conduct" is defined by "legality". What you are really talking about is disapproving of the political practices and tactics when it doesn't fit your agenda. (see IBELSD's point on that). If it is legal your idea of "proper" is irrelevant.
    Like, I said, when the Democrats turn around and do the same to you, I will remember these conversations. Except that I don't think the Democrats hate the American people enough to inflict this on them.

    With the debt ceiling being continuously threatened, it's like negotiating with a suicide bomber: it should never be done because they'll just keep coming back; as have been proven already. Is it proper conduct to act like a terrorist even though it is within the rules?

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    Re: Mind Trapped By: Gov shut down, bad in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    While I appreciate your retraction, I still push back with the same intensity against your logical gymnastics. You've gone from saying it was predicted the sky would fall, to saying it was predicted nothing negative would come out of it.

    So naturally, I [IMG]file:///C:\Users\BRENDA\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\cli p_image001.jpg[/IMG]you on it: Please show that is was predicted that nothing negative would come out of a gov. shutdown.
    Your challenge is invalid because it is to a straw-man.
    I didn’t claim that “it was predicted that no negative would come”.
    I am claiming the opposite of the claim you are challenging. I assume your challenge is a DENIAL of the previous statement. So the Opposite of it is that NO ONE predicted any negatives. IE There were no doomsayers. (which is what you challenged the existence of).

    So I think you have misunderstood, and now you should be clear on what my point was.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    You jumped to conclusion after only a few days!
    Nope, I didn’t jump to any conclusions. I simply noted the EXACT thing you agree to. The only difference is that I am not trying to avoid the conclusions by trying to poke holes in straw-men.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAN
    But there certainly are negatives, just not sky shattering consequences
    I forwarded that because they were not “sky shattering”, then we should re-evaluate them. (IE it is safe to do so.. see op)


    ---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    It's entirely relevant. Even though they may be a small caucus, the gerrymandering of Republican seats have given rise to challengers in moderate-Republican districts. And to that point, the Republican House doesn't fully represent the electorate (also due to gerrymandering) and therefore are a true national minority. They are also a minority in public opinion on this debate and will be a minority in fact if the polls about 2014 are correct.
    Challenge to support a claim. Support or retract.



    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Yes, but this shutdown (and the sequester and the future default) aren't just unpleasant to the other branches.
    I didn't say it was LIMITED to them. I said it is FUNDAMENTAL TO THEIR POWER.
    Nothing you said contradicted that.. so it is IRRELEVANT to my point.
    Any time you cut funding it is not going to be "pleasant" to the ones being cut.. yet that is the fundamental aspect of the power of the purse.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Like, I said, when the Democrats turn around and do the same to you, I will remember these conversations. Except that I don't think the Democrats hate the American people enough to inflict this on them.

    With the debt ceiling being continuously threatened, it's like negotiating with a suicide bomber: it should never be done because they'll just keep coming back; as have been proven already. Is it proper conduct to act like a terrorist even though it is within the rules?
    In other words you concede that it is irrelevant.
    Nothing you have said here contradicts the fact that this stuff is a product of the inherent consequences of the power of the purse.
    Your attempts are to cast them as "improper", and that point fails as long as the above is true.

    If the dems were trying to completely defund the military (IE 100%) with their power of the purse(when they get the house), I would ask that they be recalled... not because they are abusing their power or doing something illegal, but because they are doing something so stupid and foolish(Which I could support with facts and evidence and logical argumentation) that they deserve to be removed from office.
    To serve man.

 

 
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