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  1. #1
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    Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    About a third of the world’s crops are used for feeding livestock, which is in turn used to feed us. Ultimately, this just makes us use more land to get less food. In fact, it was estimated that if we produced the same amount of food without the use of animals, the extra land we would save would be almost the size of India.

    To make room for agriculture, a lot of deforestation takes place. This destroys the habitat of many animals and it stops a lot of CO2 from being absorbed from the atmosphere. This consequently makes our contribution to global warming much larger. On top of this, livestock produces a lot of methane, which just furthers our impact. It turns out that livestock contributes more to global warming than transport.

    The animals which we farm also contribute largely to nitrogen pollution, soil erosion and consequently water pollution. As well as this, they account for a large portion of our water use. Clearly, the world would greatly benefit if we ate less meat.


    So why do so many people discourage vegetarianism?

    And is there any justification for us eating so much meat?

  2. #2
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    I dont really care about the macro argument, as it is pretty pointless to debate something that you can't or aren't going to change. Instead, I will focus on me. I do not discourage vegetarianism at all. I do not care what people eat or don't eat. I do, however, know that you cannot get all of the nutritional benefits that you need from only eating veggies. To get these additional benefits, most vegetarians, at least most of the ones I know, turn to vitamins or other things to make that gap up.

    So, while I do not discourage it, I do advise that you learn something about being a vegetarian from a medical / nutritional point of view rather than a purely ideological one in order to ensure you are healthy.

    As for "Justification" for eating "So much meat", well again, I don't care about the macro arguments. I eat so much meat, much more than you are thinking about when you qualify the term, because I am a bodybuilder / power-lifter. I need the proteins and such to fuel my body in order to grow and get bigger and stronger. You aren't going to be pure vegetarian and a bodybuilder at the same time.

    Is that enough "Justification"? I really don't care. It's my body, my life, and I will do what I want with it while enjoying biting into chicken, fish, pork, steak, and other dead animals....yum.

    That aside, I think this could be an interesting debate and look forward to seeing what other people have to say about it =]
    Last edited by Someguy; October 2nd, 2013 at 08:28 AM.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  3. #3
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars View Post
    So why do so many people discourage vegetarianism?
    Who is doing this?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #4
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars
    So why do so many people discourage vegetarianism?
    I don't know of anyone who discourages vegetarianism and if they do, then I completely understand. I have had way too many vegetarians/vegans/etc try to shove their beliefs down my throat and drone on about their moral superiority. I have often been tempted to sarcastically extol the virtues of meat just to annoy them.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

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  6. #5
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I dont really care about the macro argument, as it is pretty pointless to debate something that you can't or aren't going to change.
    This is dangerous reasoning to use. People use it to justify lack of action on climate change, social injustice, littering, etc. It seems more poisonous than useful.

    The basic idea is that the more people who don’t eat meat/the less meat we consume, the less there demand there will be. Consequently, not as much meat will be produced. Vegetarians have made a clear difference in this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    As for "Justification" for eating "So much meat", well again, I don't care about the macro arguments. I eat so much meat, much more than you are thinking about when you qualify the term, because I am a bodybuilder / power-lifter. I need the proteins and such to fuel my body in order to grow and get bigger and stronger. You aren't going to be pure vegetarian and a bodybuilder at the same time.
    I recognise that bodybuilders (and probably other serious athletes) should have meat in their diets. I suppose in your case, it could very well be justifiable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I do not discourage vegetarianism at all. I do not care what people eat or don't eat. I do, however, know that you cannot get all of the nutritional benefits that you need from only eating veggies. To get these additional benefits, most vegetarians, at least most of the ones I know, turn to vitamins or other things to make that gap up.
    For the large majority of us, meat is not a necessary part of the diet. The American Dietetic Association supports this view, and even if a vegetarian does have to turn to vitamins, (and they don't if they eat right) I don’t see much of a problem with this. Vegetarianism also helps prevent heart disease, obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure and cancer. As well as this, there’s a correlation between being vegetarian and living longer, which at the very least supports the idea that vegetarianism is healthy.

    Also, just eating less meat would help the world, even without being vegetarian. It should at least be clear that this is healthy (unless you’re a body builder or something).


    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    I don't know of anyone who discourages vegetarianism and if they do, then I completely understand. I have had way too many vegetarians/vegans/etc try to shove their beliefs down my throat and drone on about their moral superiority. I have often been tempted to sarcastically extol the virtues of meat just to annoy them.
    Maybe where you live, less people discourage it. That being said, maybe you just don’t see it because you aren’t a vegetarian yourself. Often it’s little more than ‘sarcastically extolling the virtues of meat just to annoy them’, but even if that’s all people do, vegetarianism is still far from being viewed in the positive light it should be. I must admit, I’m on weak ground on this point, but I don’t think your point was on particularly strong ground either (argument from personal experience).

  7. #6
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars View Post
    And is there any justification for us eating so much meat?
    I tried going veggie for a month as part of a diet. An hour after I ate, I was hungry again. Eating six or eight veggie meals a day was a huge inconvenience and waste of time, and was even more expensive than having a meat entree once or twice a day. Should I spend extra money, eat all day long, and be uncomfortably hungry much of the time because you believe global warming is a problem?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  9. #7
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    The question is, would the benefit to the "world" outweigh the benefit we derive from consuming meat?

    Everything is a trade off in life. Eating meat is pretty natural human activity. If there comes a day that the impacts of doing so make it difficult for us to survive, we will stop doing it. But currently that is not the case, so we will go on doing it.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  10. #8
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars View Post
    This is dangerous reasoning to use. People use it to justify lack of action on climate change, social injustice, littering, etc.
    I will grant you this point. Badly worded on my end. I guess, as a rule, I try to avoid debating things that I can't or aren't going to change (like religion) I have always found debating issues on a micro level to be more interesting...to me at least. Probably why I am a micro-economist.

    But in general, you are right. You can't just not talk about things because you can't change them.

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars View Post
    For the large majority of us, meat is not a necessary part of the diet. The American Dietetic Association supports this view, and even if a vegetarian does have to turn to vitamins, (and they don't if they eat right) I don’t see much of a problem with this. Vegetarianism also helps prevent heart disease, obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure and cancer. As well as this, there’s a correlation between being vegetarian and living longer, which at the very least supports the idea that vegetarianism is healthy.
    You know, I read a study somewhere about how a strict vegetarian diet can have, over the long term, profound negative effects on human health. I don't recall the
    specifics, so don't quote me. I will see if I can't find them.

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars View Post
    Also, just eating less meat would help the world, even without being vegetarian.
    I don't really buy the "It helping the world" argument yet. Could you elaborate?

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars View Post
    It should at least be clear that this is healthy (unless you’re a body builder or something).
    LOL. I'm not sure if it is healthy to eat the way we have to, but it is absolutely necessary. Eating is as big a factor in bodybuilding as working out is.

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars View Post
    Maybe where you live, less people discourage it.
    Not to discount your personal experience, but I have never once heard of anyone discouraging it, personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by LookAtTheStars View Post
    That being said, maybe you just don’t see it because you aren’t a vegetarian yourself.
    This is a possibility.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  11. #9
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    Yes. I think that we can ignore other arguments and look at it only from a moral viewpoint. Consider the following (lifted from a post I made half an hour ago on the subject).

    "I wish to present an utilitarian argument for vegetarianism here.

    From the ingestion of meat, one gains short-lived or even fleeting pleasure- a steak tastes good, sure, but that pleasure will not last beyond the time that one is eating a steak. The cost of the steak, with regards to the happiness of the cow that it is carved from is the following: often a life in intolerable conditions, with cramped pens and unnatural modification (I.e. intensive use of steroids, hormones etc.)- the idyllic barnyard scene of yesteryear is long gone. In addition to the suffering that the livestock must go through before entering the slaughterhouse, after it has done so it will undergo fear and intense pain before it dies. Some argue that in return for their death and meat, we provide for and protect livestock- does this sound like protection?

    Debates over zoophilia seem to currently be much the rage on this forum. Most think that we cannot justify the abuse of an animal for the fulfilment of some of our baser instincts, and most of those posting on this thread would agree with that. But surely appetite is a base instinct- and why should suffering be justified for the fulfilment of it?

    What makes it just that we continue to perform actions that are so immoral? God-given rights? Our strength- is might right? Can we justify egocentric hedonism?"

    ---------- Post added at 09:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 AM ----------

    Yes. I think that we can ignore other arguments and look at it only from a moral viewpoint. Consider the following (lifted from a post I made half an hour ago on the subject).

    "I wish to present an utilitarian argument for vegetarianism here.

    From the ingestion of meat, one gains short-lived or even fleeting pleasure- a steak tastes good, sure, but that pleasure will not last beyond the time that one is eating a steak. The cost of the steak, with regards to the happiness of the cow that it is carved from is the following: often a life in intolerable conditions, with cramped pens and unnatural modification (I.e. intensive use of steroids, hormones etc.)- the idyllic barnyard scene of yesteryear is long gone. In addition to the suffering that the livestock must go through before entering the slaughterhouse, after it has done so it will undergo fear and intense pain before it dies. Some argue that in return for their death and meat, we provide for and protect livestock- does this sound like protection?

    Debates over zoophilia seem to currently be much the rage on this forum. Most think that we cannot justify the abuse of an animal for the fulfilment of some of our baser instincts, and most of those posting on this thread would agree with that. But surely appetite is a base instinct- and why should suffering be justified for the fulfilment of it?

    What makes it just that we continue to perform actions that are so immoral? God-given rights? Our strength- is might right? Can we justify egocentric hedonism?"

  12. #10
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    Re: Should everyone eat less/no meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I tried going veggie for a month as part of a diet. An hour after I ate, I was hungry again. Eating six or eight veggie meals a day was a huge inconvenience and waste of time, and was even more expensive than having a meat entree once or twice a day. Should I spend extra money, eat all day long, and be uncomfortably hungry much of the time because you believe global warming is a problem?
    even,

    Did you try eating any eggs, cheese, or dairy products, or was this a totally vegan diet you were on?

    I am not a vegan, I am a vegetarian....I do not eat any meat, but I do eat local organically farmed eggs and local organic dairy products, and I find that I do not have the problem of getting hungry between meals.

    ---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I dont really care about the macro argument, as it is pretty pointless to debate something that you can't or aren't going to change. Instead, I will focus on me. I do not discourage vegetarianism at all. I do not care what people eat or don't eat. I do, however, know that you cannot get all of the nutritional benefits that you need from only eating veggies. To get these additional benefits, most vegetarians, at least most of the ones I know, turn to vitamins or other things to make that gap up.

    So, while I do not discourage it, I do advise that you learn something about being a vegetarian from a medical / nutritional point of view rather than a purely ideological one in order to ensure you are healthy.
    Just to clarify, I am an ovo-lacto vegetarian, which means I eat no meat, but I do eat organic eggs and organically produced dairy products, and I do not have to take vitamins to get all my nutrients, since I do eat some animal-based products.

    On the other hand, I have a couple of friends who are strict vegans--meaning they eat only veggies, and no animal-based products at all....They do have to take vitamin supplements in order to stay healthy......Also, all the vegans I know personally seem to be super-skinny and underweight from the way they appear to me.
    Last edited by Scarlett44; October 16th, 2013 at 07:52 AM.
    "As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".

 

 

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