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  1. #141
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't think so. If I don't believe in God but he really exists does that mean he doesn't exist? I think I was approaching it the other way round. Let's say God doesn't exist. Me and you know it, I dunno, somehow. Does that make the threat of punishment and reward any less real for someone who doesn't know and truly believes in God?

    Sovereign citizens claim to not be under the jurisdiction of government yet they are often wrong...with hilarious results.
    A believer in god does so based on faith and of their own free will. That is the point here. Maybe they are right to do so and maybe they are not. It is still a choice they are making as to whether to follow the tenets of that religion or not. What you are proposing is that government operates under the same conditions of faith and free will. This is blatantly incorrect. First, the government exists as a physicial entity. Second, you have no free will to obey or disobey, believe or disbelieve. When the cop turns on his lights and directs me to pull over, I cannot just keep driving and pretend he doesn't exist. If I fail to pay the very real ticket he writes me, I have no real choice to pay or not pay. When the government comnmands me to pay money for some act of charity, it isn't me making the choice to provide charity. It is someone else's choice imposed upon me. Your own argument is proof of my rebuttal. Sovereign citizens can make no decision to refuse government claims without consequence.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  2. #142
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    First, the government exists as a physicial entity.
    You don't know that God doesn't exist. He punishes or rewards you whether you believe or not.

    ---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Second, you have no free will to obey or disobey, believe or disbelieve. When the cop turns on his lights and directs me to pull over, I cannot just keep driving and pretend he doesn't exist.
    Sure you do, you can run away.

    ---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If I fail to pay the very real ticket he writes me, I have no real choice to pay or not pay. When the government comnmands me to pay money for some act of charity, it isn't me making the choice to provide charity.
    Just like you have no choice to follow God's commandments. If you commit murder and get away with it do you think he's just going to forget. Or maybe let you go because you don't believe?

    ---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

    You've fallen back on "he doesn't exist" - which you can't possibly know - and are in the same position as the sovereign citizen who claims the government's authority doesn't exist. The elements or mythos of God might be different but his commandments are nonetheless real (whether he exists or not).

    You want to commit the murder? Maybe you'll get away. You want to run from the cops? Maybe you'll get away.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #143
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You don't know that God doesn't exist. He punishes or rewards you whether you believe or not.

    ---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 PM ----------



    Sure you do, you can run away.

    ---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------



    Just like you have no choice to follow God's commandments. If you commit murder and get away with it do you think he's just going to forget. Or maybe let you go because you don't believe?

    ---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

    You've fallen back on "he doesn't exist" - which you can't possibly know - and are in the same position as the sovereign citizen who claims the government's authority doesn't exist. The elements or mythos of God might be different but his commandments are nonetheless real (whether he exists or not).

    You want to commit the murder? Maybe you'll get away. You want to run from the cops? Maybe you'll get away.
    You are misinterpreting my point. I am not making any claim as to whether god exists or does not. That is entirely the issue. His existence is based on faith. Government's existence is not predicated on faith. If you choose to believe in god, any god, that is your act of free will. Government forcing me to support a charity isn't me expressing free will.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  4. #144
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    His existence is based on faith.
    So if you don't believe in him he doesn't exist?

    I'd also say God commanding me to honor the Sabbath or my mother and father isn't freewill...my father is a total asshole.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #145
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So if you don't believe in him he doesn't exist?

    I'd also say God commanding me to honor the Sabbath or my mother and father isn't freewill...my father is a total asshole.
    I am saying you have a choice to believe in god or not believe in god. That is the essence of free will. No one is forcing you to believe in god. No one is forcing you to honor your father. If you choose to believe in god, and the Christian god at that, then you then still choose whether to follow his commandments. I cannot choose to believe in government or not believe. Government is a physical entity. When it imposes a demand that I pay tribute to some charity or cause, it isn't by free will. It isn't a choice I am making to be a good Samaritan. It is a choice being made for me. It isn't righteous. It is acceptance of being compelled. There is no moral justification. I am simply paying what I am told to pay in order to avoid breaking the law which I have no choice but to accept that it exists. If I choose to follow god's commandments it is with the belief that there is a heaven, but that belief isn't anything other than faith.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  6. #146
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    No one is forcing you to believe in god.
    God is. And if I don't I'm punished.

    You have plenty of choices to follow or not follow the law. You could be an outlaw or engage in civil disobedience. You could start a rebellion or work through legal means to change it.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #147
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    God is. And if I don't I'm punished.

    You have plenty of choices to follow or not follow the law. You could be an outlaw or engage in civil disobedience. You could start a rebellion or work through legal means to change it.
    You believe in God because he has forced you to believe in him? That's interesting. How are there disbelievers then?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  8. #148
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You believe in God because he has forced you to believe in him? That's interesting. How are there disbelievers then?
    On "judgement day" you would be compelled/forced to believe God exists would you not?

  9. #149
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You believe in God because he has forced you to believe in him? That's interesting. How are there disbelievers then?
    Free will.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  10. #150
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    On "judgement day" you would be compelled/forced to believe God exists would you not?
    I don't have the slightest clue. Until that supposed day, are you compelled to follow god? Are you compelled to believe in him? Any action you take would be based on your faith (i.e. belief) that god exists. Are there possible consequences at the end? I have no fricken idea. Nor do you. Nor does CB. What I do know is that the government is real. The punishments they threaten their citizens with for noncompliance are real. Their prisons and guns and soldiers are real. I have no free will to follow or not follow. I am compelled by force to adhere to law. The idea that government and religion are both bound by the same concept of faith and free will is amusing and disappointing.

    ---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Free will.
    So, you are recanting your previous statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    God is. And if I don't I'm punished.


    ???

    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  11. #151
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    [/COLOR]

    So, you are recanting your previous statement:
    I don't think I am.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #152
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't think I am.
    In thread #146 you answered my question by stating you were forced to believe in god. In post #149 you state disbelief is a function of free will. This is a contradiction. Either you are forced to believe or you have free will to not believe. You cannot claim both.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  13. #153
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I don't have the slightest clue. Until that supposed day, are you compelled to follow god? Are you compelled to believe in him?
    Sorry, I thought "judgement day" as pretty solid in Christianity? Perhaps I should have mentioned I am not trying to support CB's overall claim/s, as I am generally agreeing with you here except on this one point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The idea that government and religion are both bound by the same concept of faith and free will is amusing and disappointing.[COLOR="Silver"]
    I find it curious as well....

  14. #154
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    In thread #146 you answered my question by stating you were forced to believe in god. In post #149 you state disbelief is a function of free will. This is a contradiction. Either you are forced to believe or you have free will to not believe. You cannot claim both.
    Is there a difference between having free will and being "free" to do something? For example, we have laws, right? I am not free of those laws. They apply to me. However, I do have free will as to whether I am going to abide by those laws. I choose whether or not I am going to speed to work today on the highway.

    Same thing with God. He has his laws and I use my free will to follow or not follow them.

    But the threat of punishment or reward is there from both.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #155
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Is there a difference between having free will and being "free" to do something? For example, we have laws, right? I am not free of those laws. They apply to me. However, I do have free will as to whether I am going to abide by those laws. I choose whether or not I am going to speed to work today on the highway.

    Same thing with God. He has his laws and I use my free will to follow or not follow them.

    But the threat of punishment or reward is there from both.
    You are dodging the question.

    ---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Sorry, I thought "judgement day" as pretty solid in Christianity? Perhaps I should have mentioned I am not trying to support CB's overall claim/s, as I am generally agreeing with you here except on this one point.
    Not everyone who believes in god is Christian and not everyone believes in god. The belief in god, itself, is a matter of free will.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  16. #156
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are dodging the question.[COLOR="Silver"]
    I don't think I am. IF the God of the Bible exists as described he forces people to believe in him. Denying him is punished.

    Laws exist. I am forced to follow them or I am punished.

    However, in both cases I am can choose to not comply.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #157
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't think I am. IF the God of the Bible exists as described he forces people to believe in him. Denying him is punished.

    Laws exist. I am forced to follow them or I am punished.

    However, in both cases I am can choose to not comply.
    You claimed you were forced to believe in god. That was your claim. I then asked about non-believers. You noted they chose (ie. demonstrated free will) to not believe. That is a contradiction which you are trying to wriggle out of. We are not discussing compliance here. We are discussing something much more fundamental which is the root existence of either entity.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  18. #158
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You claimed you were forced to believe in god. That was your claim. I then asked about non-believers. You noted they chose (ie. demonstrated free will) to not believe. That is a contradiction which you are trying to wriggle out of. We are not discussing compliance here. We are discussing something much more fundamental which is the root existence of either entity.
    I don't see any contradiction. The threat of forced is used to make me obey the speeding laws. All of us in fact. Are you saying nobody ever speeds?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  19. #159
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't see any contradiction. The threat of forced is used to make me obey the speeding laws. All of us in fact. Are you saying nobody ever speeds?
    Speeding laws? Is this the secret 11th commandment, thou shalt not speed? We are discussing your claim about belief. Stop changing the topic and stop trying to reframe my argument. My argument is very simple. You claimed you were forced to believe in god and you claimed disblievers possess free will to not believe. This is a contradiction and needs to be reconciled. Either believers are forced (and are not actually believers) or non-believers do not actually possess free. You'll hopefully notice the paradox your contradiction incurs.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  20. #160
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Speeding laws? Is this the secret 11th commandment, thou shalt not speed? We are discussing your claim about belief. Stop changing the topic and stop trying to reframe my argument. My argument is very simple. You claimed you were forced to believe in god and you claimed disblievers possess free will to not believe. This is a contradiction and needs to be reconciled. Either believers are forced (and are not actually believers) or non-believers do not actually possess free. You'll hopefully notice the paradox your contradiction incurs.
    So by forced I'm going to take it to mean that people are programmed to believe? Is that right? As opposed to being forced through threat of coercion - which was your example given, being forced to follow the laws of the government.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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