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  1. #1
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    Who is my neighbor?

    Luke 10:25-37
    New International Version (NIV)
    The Parable of the Good Samaritan

    25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

    26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

    27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

    28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

    30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

    36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

    37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

    Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”


    So the Samaritan paid for the healthcare of the hated foreigner. What does this tell us about our society where we often hear complaining about "illegal aliens" showing up at our emergency rooms for care? Doesn't Jesus say we should take care of them?

    How about when people claim that constitutional rights do not apply to non-citizens? Is this true? Does morality stop at a borderline?
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So the Samaritan paid for the healthcare of the hated foreigner. What does this tell us about our society where we often hear complaining about "illegal aliens" showing up at our emergency rooms for care? Doesn't Jesus say we should take care of them?
    The parable is a guideline to promote the charitable conduct of the individual, not the State. Surrendering one's money to the State at the point of a gun so that the State can decide who gets certain benefits - including health care - and who does not is not charity; it's coercion. In fact, using the State as the medium for charity by letting them be the arbiter of who gets charity and who does not totally negates the moral value of charity, thus rendering your analogy totally inapplicable to the personally-based moral requirements of the Christian faith. The argument goes, "why should I give to that person? I paid my taxes already.. they can get whatever they need from the government." Government coercion kills charity in this way.

    This is the sort of answer that the Pharisees that Jesus so frequently railed against would have given... you twist the words to make them say what you want them to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    How about when people claim that constitutional rights do not apply to non-citizens? Is this true? Does morality stop at a borderline?
    False dilemma. The applicability of the Constitution to non-citizens is not a moral issue; its a legal one. Constituional rights *don't* apply to citizens, because the Constitution applies only to citizens. Furthermore, health care is not a constitutional right, so your argument is inapplicable to the health care issue.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Luke 10:25-37
    New International Version (NIV)
    The Parable of the Good Samaritan

    25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

    26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

    27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

    28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

    30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

    36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

    37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

    Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”


    So the Samaritan paid for the healthcare of the hated foreigner. What does this tell us about our society where we often hear complaining about "illegal aliens" showing up at our emergency rooms for care? Doesn't Jesus say we should take care of them?

    How about when people claim that constitutional rights do not apply to non-citizens? Is this true? Does morality stop at a borderline?
    It is a giant leap from a command Christ gives to us as individuals to say the same of the government. I am personally more than happy to give directly from my pocket to those in need. I do have a fundamental problem with letting the government take that responsibility.

    1) The government is a poor arbitrator of such services. I have personal experience with the Veteran's Administration and their health care services. Many of my friends have as well. The quality of service is at times criminal.

    2) Obligated redistribution in the form of taxation removes the burden from individuals to carry out Christ's command. I am obligated to follow Christ's commands to help my fellow man and I take that very seriously, but I do so of my own free will. By my will to help others is my faith demonstrated By relegating that duty to the government and making it obligatory under pain of punishment, removes the responsibility and will to help others. Perhaps that is why the more Conservative regions of the US often give a higher percentage of their income to charitable causes?
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    It is a giant leap from a command Christ gives to us as individuals to say the same of the government. I am personally more than happy to give directly from my pocket to those in need. I do have a fundamental problem with letting the government take that responsibility.
    Yet in the time of Christ, ordinary people had little say in their government. We have the ability to make our government conform to the teachings of Christ.

    How do you know what is going on in private charities? You're saying they are always above board and have good, measurable results that aren't just "at times criminal"?



    If it is anecdote time, I can tell you from my personal lifetime interaction with the Catholic church that much of their "charitable" work is done on a quid pro quo basis. Especially where it concerns its own members. Peodphile priests, I can tell you, are just the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps someday it will come out what so many women did to make sure their family, and especially their children, were taken care of.

    ---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    False dilemma. The applicability of the Constitution to non-citizens is not a moral issue; its a legal one. Constituional rights *don't* apply to citizens, because the Constitution applies only to citizens. Furthermore, health care is not a constitutional right, so your argument is inapplicable to the health care issue.

    So an illegal alien with a burst appendix should be turned away from the emergency room?

    Can I kill a non-citizen tourist without getting in trouble?

    ---------- Post added at 05:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    The parable is a guideline to promote the charitable conduct of the individual, not the State. Surrendering one's money to the State at the point of a gun so that the State can decide who gets certain benefits - including health care - and who does not is not charity; it's coercion.
    You aren't coerced into being a part of this society, you are free to leave at any time.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How do you know what is going on in private charities? You're saying they are always above board and have good, measurable results that aren't just "at times criminal"?
    Straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    So an illegal alien with a burst appendix should be turned away from the emergency room?
    No... but they should be billed for the surgery, not subsidized on the American taxpayer's dime.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    Can I kill a non-citizen tourist without getting in trouble?
    I should say not; murder is murder, no matter who it happens to. At that point, though, you're not talking about constitutional rights anymore. This has nothing to do with health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    You aren't coerced into being a part of this society, you are free to leave at any time.
    This is a spurious argument because it assumes that "being a part of this society" automatically implies that you agree with State-sanctioned robbery and redistribution of wealth based on the whims of the political establishment.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    Straw man.
    Not so. Private charity delivers better results was not brought up by me and is, as yet, unsupported.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    No... but they should be billed for the surgery, not subsidized on the American taxpayer's dime.
    They aren't? Support please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    I should say not; murder is murder, no matter who it happens to. At that point, though, you're not talking about constitutional rights anymore. This has nothing to do with health care.
    What rights would you be referring to then? Do they have a right to free speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    This is a spurious argument because it assumes that "being a part of this society" automatically implies that you agree with State-sanctioned robbery and redistribution of wealth based on the whims of the political establishment.
    No, you don't have to agree with it, but you aren't being "coerced" or "robbed" either since you are free to leave at any time.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not so. Private charity delivers better results was not brought up by me and is, as yet, unsupported.
    That isn't the argument you made or rebutted in your previous post, which was the spurious claim that someone argued that all charities were above board and inherently trustworthy.

    If you wish to argue the case of whether private charities are more efficient than the federal government, we can do that, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    They aren't? Support please.
    I don't understand your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    What rights would you be referring to then? Do they have a right to free speech?
    It is well-established that the rights enumerated specifically in the Constitution, including those in the Bill of Rights, are not specifically enumerated as belonging to citizens only, but are enumerated as belonging to "persons." This is entirely consistent with the Founding Fathers' principles that rights such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are all fundamental and inalienable rights which no government grants, but which are instead an integral part of the human experience and have no need to be "granted" by anyone *to* anyone.

    That said, nothing in the Constitution says anything about health care. Furthermore, health care is not a right. It's a service that is the result of a great number of highly trained and well-equipped professionals acting in concert with each other. This service costs a great deal to provide, and it costs each individual person providing that service a great deal of time, money, and effort to achieve the necessary legal permissions to be allowed to provide those services. To say that such a thing is a "right" on par with freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the right not to be unjustly imprisoned is basically to make literal slaves out of doctors, nurses, and anyone else who works in the health care industry. If something is a fundamental "right," then every person is justly entitled to demand it from another person simply by virtue of the fact that they exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    No, you don't have to agree with it, but you aren't being "coerced" or "robbed" either since you are free to leave at any time.
    You are presenting a false choice based on a false assumption. Simply because you or a small number of politicians believe that the State is a good arbiter of who should have and who should not doesn't mean that it becomes a pre-condition for participating in society. It means that you and those politicians are unjustly attempting to force your will upon others who disagree with you by the coercive threat that they should be expected to leave if they don't like it.

    To take the point a step further, what would happen if I refused to turn over the portion of my taxes that goes toward paying for services I don't agree with, don't use, and don't think other people should be receiving from my pocket?
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yet in the time of Christ, ordinary people had little say in their government. We have the ability to make our government conform to the teachings of Christ.
    That's an interesting idea Cowboy. So within the context of the Good Smaritan parable in your OP that teaches us the importance of personal responsibility to act and help our neighbor, a government that conforms to the teachings of Christ would probably be very small, well run, empowering the people it governs and championing the people's active involvement in the most fundamental premise of Christ teachings:

    " Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind and Love your neighbor as yourself."

    That might be an interesting government model to experiment with.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    That's an interesting idea Cowboy. So within the context of the Good Smaritan parable in your OP that teaches us the importance of personal responsibility to act and help our neighbor, a government that conforms to the teachings of Christ would probably be very small, well run, empowering the people it governs and championing the people's active involvement in the most fundamental premise of Christ teachings:

    " Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind and Love your neighbor as yourself."

    That might be an interesting government model to experiment with.

    Why would it have to be small?

    ---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    That isn't the argument you made or rebutted in your previous post, which was the spurious claim that someone argued that all charities were above board and inherently trustworthy.
    "someone", not me and it was unsupported.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    I don't understand your question.
    Support that illegal aliens are receiving healthcare at our emergency rooms and no attempt is made to bill them for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    It is well-established that the rights enumerated specifically in the Constitution, including those in the Bill of Rights, are not specifically enumerated as belonging to citizens only, but are enumerated as belonging to "persons." This is entirely consistent with the Founding Fathers' principles that rights such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are all fundamental and inalienable rights which no government grants, but which are instead an integral part of the human experience and have no need to be "granted" by anyone *to* anyone.

    That said, nothing in the Constitution says anything about health care. Furthermore, health care is not a right. It's a service that is the result of a great number of highly trained and well-equipped professionals acting in concert with each other. This service costs a great deal to provide, and it costs each individual person providing that service a great deal of time, money, and effort to achieve the necessary legal permissions to be allowed to provide those services. To say that such a thing is a "right" on par with freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the right not to be unjustly imprisoned is basically to make literal slaves out of doctors, nurses, and anyone else who works in the health care industry. If something is a fundamental "right," then every person is justly entitled to demand it from another person simply by virtue of the fact that they exist.
    So we agree, those rights do apply to non-citizens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    You are presenting a false choice based on a false assumption. Simply because you or a small number of politicians believe that the State is a good arbiter of who should have and who should not doesn't mean that it becomes a pre-condition for participating in society. It means that you and those politicians are unjustly attempting to force your will upon others who disagree with you by the coercive threat that they should be expected to leave if they don't like it.

    To take the point a step further, what would happen if I refused to turn over the portion of my taxes that goes toward paying for services I don't agree with, don't use, and don't think other people should be receiving from my pocket?
    You would face some type of penalty for not following the rules of the society in which you choose to be.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why would it have to be small?
    Because surrendering moral authority to the state by making them the arbiter and the giver of "charity" is an abdication of the personal moral responsibility that each person has on an individual basis to do these things on their own. A government that is small would encourage others to do those things on their own, as they did before the government ballooned in to the behemoth that it is and still do to this day.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    "someone", not me and it was unsupported.
    No... you claimed someone made that point which was unsupported. This is not true. They, in fact, made a different argument which you twisted into one you could then claim was unsupported. This is the definition of a Straw Man fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    Support that illegal aliens are receiving healthcare at our emergency rooms and no attempt is made to bill them for it.
    This is another straw man fallacy. I did not claim that emergency rooms were not attempting to bill for illegal immigrants' health care that happens in emergency rooms. My claim is that millions of people, including illegal immigrants, receive health care for which they do not pay because they go through the ER which cannot turn them away. I will further claim that this is a huge driver of the cost of medicine and that it hurts everyone else by forcing hospitals to both exaggerate costs and to overcharge for things just to keep the doors open, thus driving up the cost of insurance for private-pay insurance customers, the out-of-pocket cost for people that *can* pay, and the burden on the system in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    So we agree, those rights do apply to non-citizens.
    You are making a habit of distorting my words that I am beginning to become annoyed with. Either have a clear, straight debate with me and stop twisting my words, or stop engaging me in debate.

    I agree that the with regard to Bill of Rights and other rights enumerated specifically in the Constitution - with the noted exception of the right to vote and the right to be elected to public office - the Constitution does not distinguish between citizens and non-citizens.

    I do not agree that health care is among these rights. Your attempt to include these in my agreement by grouping them together in your response is dishonest, and I request that you show better form in your discussion if you want to continue debating with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    You would face some type of penalty for not following the rules of the society in which you choose to be.
    Then this is coercion, pure and simple, because I would not willingly pay such a penalty. They would have to forcibly take it from me.

    Furthermore, I and over half the country disagree with the rules of the society as they relate to health care and wanted to change it but have been prevented from doing so by a group of oligarchs who manipulate the laws of the land to stifle dissent, force unpopular policies upon the citizenry, and otherwise flout the rule of law by which the society had agreed to be run. In my opinion, that makes any claim that your side of the issue is somehow the "social consensus" by which others may be coerced into submission totally without merit.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why would it have to be small?
    Because if people were truly living the principle of loving their neighbor and God (since the government would be based on Christ teachings as you suggested), government would not need to be large since the people would be actively involved in managing and helping their neighbor who required help. That would be the norm. That would eliminate welfare, social security (families would take care of their older parents) along with many social services. The good Samaritan, the people, would have the honor and resonsibility to manage and carry out this service. That's what the parable you quoted in your OP teaches -- personal responsibility.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Because if people were truly living the principle of loving their neighbor and God (since the government would be based on Christ teachings as you suggested), government would not need to be large since the people would be actively involved in managing and helping their neighbor who required help. That would be the norm. That would eliminate welfare, social security (families would take care of their older parents) along with many social services. The good Samaritan, the people, would have the honor and resonsibility to manage and carry out this service. That's what the parable you quoted in your OP teaches -- personal responsibility.

    They can be actively involved through their government. Do I have to go from the east coast to the west coast to take care of a homeless person?

    Notice in the parable the Samaritan does help, but he also leaves the person in the care of the innkeeper and leaves money for his care.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    They can be actively involved through their government.
    If they are doing this, then they are not actively involved in doing personal actions of charity toward another person. Either they are passively submitting to the State to determine who is a worthy recipient of charity or they are serving the State directly, not the person who has been designated by the State as a worthy recipient of charity.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    Do I have to go from the east coast to the west coast to take care of a homeless person?
    Are there no homeless people where you live? Jesus' gospel was about loving people where you are, with what you have, in the present moment, as it is and as they are right now. It wasn't about giving your money to a huge collectivist group so that they can decide for you what the correct moral choice is.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX
    Notice in the parable the Samaritan does help, but he also leaves the person in the care of the innkeeper and leaves money for his care.
    But he did it where he was, with what he had. He didn't just hand the guy over to Centurions or the Pharisees and say, "this guy needs help.. I've paid my taxes, so I have contributed to this guy's health... fix him." He also didn't say, "the Romans will reimburse you out of the money I paid them this year in taxes."

    You insist on comparing apples to oranges. The situation in the Parable of the Good Samaritan is not the same as the one you are portraying. Continuing to insist that it is flies in the face of all evidence and all of the arguments which you have not yet rebutted.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthas View Post
    If they are doing this, then they are not actively involved in doing personal actions of charity toward another person. Either they are passively submitting to the State to determine who is a worthy recipient of charity or they are serving the State directly, not the person who has been designated by the State as a worthy recipient of charity.

    Are there no homeless people where you live? Jesus' gospel was about loving people where you are, with what you have, in the present moment, as it is and as they are right now. It wasn't about giving your money to a huge collectivist group so that they can decide for you what the correct moral choice is.

    But he did it where he was, with what he had. He didn't just hand the guy over to Centurions or the Pharisees and say, "this guy needs help.. I've paid my taxes, so I have contributed to this guy's health... fix him." He also didn't say, "the Romans will reimburse you out of the money I paid them this year in taxes."

    You insist on comparing apples to oranges. The situation in the Parable of the Good Samaritan is not the same as the one you are portraying. Continuing to insist that it is flies in the face of all evidence and all of the arguments which you have not yet rebutted.

    You're supposed to love everyone, everywhere. Even your worst enemy. Even the person who takes the money from you that is supposed to be used for food and runs in the liquor store. If he comes back and asks you for money again you are supposed to give it to him again, and again.

    So why can't you do both? Where you live and everywhere else.

    ---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Today we call those charities and there are millions of them around the world and there could be millions more. They are often run by people volunteering their service and time helping other people in need (Matthew 25:31-46). And in a Christ-centered society, they would most likely run even more efficiently than they operate now.

    Government is in the business of governing and adjudicating the laws of the land. A Christ-centered government (as you suggested) would be in the business of adjudicating the law of the land whose fundamental principle would be empowering people to be more Christ-like since the government is following the teachings of Christ. What would a society of Christ-like people look like? The Good Samaritan in your OP is a great starting model. When people are more Christ-like and serve (help) their neighbor in need as a norm, the government can be free to do its business of adjudicating the law. It would have no need to be large and over-reaching to adjudicate the law of the land especially in a Christ-like society.


    I could agree with that. For example, we'd have far fewer nonsense cases clogging the courts as people would give freely and not bicker like the current property line dispute I'm in...3 inches *sheesh* and we'll probably be in court for years and waste untold thousands.

    However, I'd say that what would be best would be to transfer all of that energy into doing good and charity...public works, FEMA, education, healtcare and the like...so at the most government would stay the same size. Although I'd personally like to see it bigger.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Notice in the parable the Samaritan does help, but he also leaves the person in the care of the innkeeper and leaves money for his care.
    Today we call those charities and there are millions of them around the world and there could be millions more. They are often run by people volunteering their service and time helping other people in need (Matthew 25:31-46). And in a Christ-centered society, they would most likely run even more efficiently than they operate now.

    Government is in the business of governing and adjudicating the laws of the land. A Christ-centered government (as you suggested) would be in the business of adjudicating the law of the land whose fundamental principle would be empowering people to be more Christ-like since the government is following the teachings of Christ. What would a society of Christ-like people look like? The Good Samaritan in your OP is a great starting model. When people are more Christ-like and serve (help) their neighbor in need as a norm, the government can be free to do its business of adjudicating the law. It would have no need to be large and over-reaching to adjudicate the law of the land especially in a Christ-like society.
    Last edited by eye4magic; October 4th, 2013 at 02:41 PM.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    A third argument.

    Our government is not a religious one. It is not a Christian one. We have a secular government that must represent peoples of all beliefs and creeds. You using religious beliefs as justification for a policy. How is this different than the sort of "theocracy" the Left has been crying about for years?
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    A third argument.

    Our government is not a religious one. It is not a Christian one. We have a secular government that must represent peoples of all beliefs and creeds. You using religious beliefs as justification for a policy. How is this different than the sort of "theocracy" the Left has been crying about for years?

    That is the same mistake conservatives have made for years confusing religious worship or practice with religious teachings. No one is saying you have to accept communion to get your food stamps, or you have to join and attend church regularly, or wear a cross around your neck or as a lapel pin.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That is the same mistake conservatives have made for years confusing religious worship or practice with religious teachings. No one is saying you have to accept communion to get your food stamps, or you have to join and attend church regularly, or wear a cross around your neck or as a lapel pin.
    huh? You are couching the reason we should do all this in religious teaching. That is to impose religious belief. If I were an atheist, then what would be the relevance of your argument other than to insist that I have to give up my money in accordance to your religious beliefs? That is theocracy no?
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    Our government is not a religious one. It is not a Christian one. We have a secular government that must represent peoples of all beliefs and creeds. You using religious beliefs as justification for a policy. How is this different than the sort of "theocracy" the Left has been crying about for years?
    Keep in mind the question here is why do you oppose supporting or allowing the state to provide charity. Not do you think the state is obligated to by the bible. Charity is a christian value and it strikes non-Christians as odd that a christian would oppose charity in any form not directly in violation of another moral value. (for instance giving away graven images as a charitable act would obviously make no sense).

    Some take separation of church and state too far. The idea is only that the state does not establish or endorse religion. That people vote with their own religious views in mind is perfectly appropriate. Religious views can easily find secular expression. An atheists distaste for religious arguments is often in the mix but I think its not a real argument that people can't support christian virtues in secular action.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Keep in mind the question here is why do you oppose supporting or allowing the state to provide charity. Not do you think the state is obligated to by the bible. Charity is a christian value and it strikes non-Christians as odd that a christian would oppose charity in any form not directly in violation of another moral value. (for instance giving away graven images as a charitable act would obviously make no sense).

    Some take separation of church and state too far. The idea is only that the state does not establish or endorse religion. That people vote with their own religious views in mind is perfectly appropriate. Religious views can easily find secular expression. An atheists distaste for religious arguments is often in the mix but I think its not a real argument that people can't support christian virtues in secular action.
    It strikes me as odd that anyone would consider an involuntary and obligatory tax to be considered the equivalent of "charity. It strikes me as even more odd knowing that so much of that money does not go to the sorts of things that could even be considered charitable. Is military funding and the payment of government debts now considered charity?

    One must have a very perverted definition of charity, one that renders the term all but meaningless, in order to not see the difference.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

 

 
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