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  1. #81
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Thanks for answering the question. You believe morality stops at the borderline...or a change in skin color.
    Not what I said. Oh well. Didn't really expect you to get it anyhow.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Not what I said. Oh well. Didn't really expect you to get it anyhow.
    What wasn't gotten were the teachings of Jesus Christ, and that was not gotten by you. Christ said to give it all away as the material doesn't matter anyway, you know, turn the other cheek and all.

    Pretty simple to understand how he could've winked himself off that cross at any second but chose not to to teach us that lesson...but go ahead and cry about the little bit you pay compared to the large benefit you probably receive (I'd wager) from government spending of all sorts.

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  3. #83
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What wasn't gotten were the teachings of Jesus Christ, and that was not gotten by you. Christ said to give it all away as the material doesn't matter anyway, you know, turn the other cheek and all.

    Pretty simple to understand how he could've winked himself off that cross at any second but chose not to to teach us that lesson...but go ahead and cry about the little bit you pay compared to the large benefit you probably receive (I'd wager) from government spending of all sorts.

    Sunday School 101, you shouldn't of skipped.
    Sigh. You still don't get it. I missed the part in your story where Jesus commanded the Samaritan to collect the money by rule of law from others.

    P.S. Why would I have ever attended Sunday School, let alone skipped it?
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  4. #84
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    “Go and do likewise.” It's not optional. It's not whether you feel like doing it or not or because you think the person is taking advantage of you.

    So that being, the argument is that are we not a Christian Nation, should not religion be a part of the public sphere? - as is so often claimed by conservatives - Is our society and government not based on Judeo-Christian principles? - again, as so often trumpeted by conservatives.

    Is this a case of being a "Cafeteria Christian"?

    It's easy to do the things that don't effect you - rail against gay marriage if you aren't gay, for example.

    It's hard to stand there and let someone punch you in the face after they just did the first time, isn't it?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #85
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    “Go and do likewise.” It's not optional. It's not whether you feel like doing it or not or because you think the person is taking advantage of you.

    So that being, the argument is that are we not a Christian Nation, should not religion be a part of the public sphere? - as is so often claimed by conservatives - Is our society and government not based on Judeo-Christian principles? - again, as so often trumpeted by conservatives.

    Is this a case of being a "Cafeteria Christian"?

    It's easy to do the things that don't effect you - rail against gay marriage if you aren't gay, for example.

    It's hard to stand there and let someone punch you in the face after they just did the first time, isn't it?

    1) Again. Where in your story did Jesus compel the Samaritan to collect money from others?
    2) We are a "Christian Nation" is little more than a straw man. Our society is based on Judeo-Christian principles, chief among them is the free-will of the individual. Our laws based on property ownership and our social constructs are also derived from the Judeo-Christian tradition. There is no Jesus in Judeo belief, by the way. As an example, the business of loaning money is very much practiced in the U.S. whereas it is forbidden in Muslim nations. We believe in the concept of owning property which is not accepted among many Native American tribes. These are examples of how the Bible influenced us as a nation. Examples of how our rules and structures are based on Judeo-Christian principles. This is not equivalent to saying we are a Christian theocracy which is what you have implied.
    3) Where have I railed against gay marriage?
    4) Not personally being a Christian, I feel no compulsion to turn the other cheek when punched in the face. It is why I was never compelled to attend Sunday school.

    Besides being butt hurt (no pun intended) about gay marriage, what is the point of your rant?
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  6. #86
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    1) Again. Where in your story did Jesus compel the Samaritan to collect money from others?
    2) We are a "Christian Nation" is little more than a straw man. Our society is based on Judeo-Christian principles, chief among them is the free-will of the individual. Our laws based on property ownership and our social constructs are also derived from the Judeo-Christian tradition. There is no Jesus in Judeo belief, by the way. As an example, the business of loaning money is very much practiced in the U.S. whereas it is forbidden in Muslim nations. We believe in the concept of owning property which is not accepted among many Native American tribes. These are examples of how the Bible influenced us as a nation. Examples of how our rules and structures are based on Judeo-Christian principles. This is not equivalent to saying we are a Christian theocracy which is what you have implied.
    3) Where have I railed against gay marriage?
    4) Not personally being a Christian, I feel no compulsion to turn the other cheek when punched in the face. It is why I was never compelled to attend Sunday school.

    Besides being butt hurt (no pun intended) about gay marriage, what is the point of your rant?
    Mostly true, I never said you, personally, railed against gay marriage. That was an example.

    I doubt very seriously you don't understand one of the most basic aspects of Christianity, its teachings and dogma.

    Let me explain my reasoning.

    The Sunday School thing - Catholic children are sent very young to be indoctrinated...way before critical reasoning has developed. This done on purpose for as reasoning develops it is met by the prepared answers. One of the first is usually something like "If Jesus did all of those miracles and things why didn't he just disappear when the Romans came for him" Or became invisible or whatever. A normal, natural question a child would ask, no?

    The canned answer is exactly what I said - he could've but chose not to to show us the way. Right? This was emulated by martyrs throughout history so there's no question as to the teaching of the church and what it meant to be more Christ-like. Suffer without complaint and love those who are causing you to suffer.


    Did Jesus say to collect taxes? Not that I remember, he did say to pay your taxes and to give freely without regard to material possessions. But what Jesus said wasn't the argument.

    The argument was that we are capable of influencing and setting up a government that accomplishes things that Jesus taught. As I argued previously, we don't live in an empire like Jesus did where there was little say in what the government did. As Christians aren't we duty bound to do so?

    I'm not sure how this impedes your free will, as you are free to go.
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  7. #87
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Mostly true, I never said you, personally, railed against gay marriage. That was an example.

    I doubt very seriously you don't understand one of the most basic aspects of Christianity, its teachings and dogma.

    Let me explain my reasoning.

    The Sunday School thing - Catholic children are sent very young to be indoctrinated...way before critical reasoning has developed. This done on purpose for as reasoning develops it is met by the prepared answers. One of the first is usually something like "If Jesus did all of those miracles and things why didn't he just disappear when the Romans came for him" Or became invisible or whatever. A normal, natural question a child would ask, no?

    The canned answer is exactly what I said - he could've but chose not to to show us the way. Right? This was emulated by martyrs throughout history so there's no question as to the teaching of the church and what it meant to be more Christ-like. Suffer without complaint and love those who are causing you to suffer.


    Did Jesus say to collect taxes? Not that I remember, he did say to pay your taxes and to give freely without regard to material possessions. But what Jesus said wasn't the argument.

    The argument was that we are capable of influencing and setting up a government that accomplishes things that Jesus taught. As I argued previously, we don't live in an empire like Jesus did where there was little say in what the government did. As Christians aren't we duty bound to do so?

    I'm not sure how this impedes your free will, as you are free to go.
    You are misusing the term free will. I am speaking in terms of religion, not socially or politically. The Judeo-Christian view is that belief and practice are based on the premise of free-will. Forcing me to donate is neither Christian nor charitable. In the story you offered, the Samaritan, through his own free-will and through his own personal relationship with God made a choice. What you are suggesting is that by living in this country, we do not get to exercise free-will, but must conform to the will of others. This is not a Judeo-Christian value even if the underlying intention of the tax is to provide some Judeo-Christian inspired good.

    Of course we are capable of creating a government in God's image. It seems a highly improbable position for you to take. The bible is not exactly keen on the whole the gay thing. You cast quite a slippery slope if you wish to impose Christian beliefs via government for some values but not for others. Again, this is the difference between being a society where our laws and concept of liberty comes from the judeo-christian belief system and actually being a Christian nation. It is correct to claim the former and absolutely incorrect to insist on the latter. As a non-Christian, I have no idea what you feel duty-bound to do.
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  8. #88
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are misusing the term free will. I am speaking in terms of religion, not socially or politically. The Judeo-Christian view is that belief and practice are based on the premise of free-will. Forcing me to donate is neither Christian nor charitable. In the story you offered, the Samaritan, through his own free-will and through his own personal relationship with God made a choice. What you are suggesting is that by living in this country, we do not get to exercise free-will, but must conform to the will of others. This is not a Judeo-Christian value even if the underlying intention of the tax is to provide some Judeo-Christian inspired good.
    But don't we do that all the time? My free-will is telling me to kill my boss. When I don't do it what is holding me back? The law and fear of punishment or God and fear of his punishment. Or both? Why do we need both? I wasn't party to the writing of the law against murder - there was no vote, right? But as a member of this society I've agreed to abide by its laws - first as an accident of birth and then when I matured through my own free will because, like I said, I'm free to leave. Humans aren't bound to their environment beyond physical requirements.

    I've brought up the differences between forms of government now and during Biblical times. Even though people did move about then it has to be vastly easier to do so now. Heck, even within the US there is tremendous variability from locality to locality where one can move to enjoy what type of government one likes. Not to mention the (relatively) easy way one can be involved in shaping said government, say, if one didn't want to move. So the damage on your free will is negligible.

    Jesus did say to pay your taxes. Granted he was mocking Caesar and the material world as nothing but horseshit.

    ---------- Post added April 28th, 2017 at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was April 27th, 2017 at 11:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The bible is not exactly keen on the whole the gay thing. You cast quite a slippery slope if you wish to impose Christian beliefs via government for some values but not for others.
    I disagree on that interpretation. Jesus didn't say anything about being gay. Granted, the bible does but I disagree that it is referring to homosexuality as we know it. Certainly not gay marriage or monogamous relationships resulting in a family. I doubt they could conceive of those or it would have been mentioned specifically. Rather, the need for those dictates is to stop men from curtailing the adultery commandment by sleeping with other men. This is something truly straight men have a hard time considering, but it certainly is as true today as it was then...just scroll through craigslist or grindr.

    ---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You are misusing the term free will. I am speaking in terms of religion, not socially or politically.
    How are they different?

    ---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The Judeo-Christian view is that belief and practice are based on the premise of free-will. Forcing me to donate is neither Christian nor charitable.
    Yes, you have the free-will to choose between right and wrong, but there IS a right and wrong according to the Bible. The church forces people to tithe, no? Granted they don't have the physical force they once had but if you want to receive sacraments you'd better be up on your payments.
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  9. #89
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But don't we do that all the time? My free-will is telling me to kill my boss. When I don't do it what is holding me back? The law and fear of punishment or God and fear of his punishment. Or both? Why do we need both? I wasn't party to the writing of the law against murder - there was no vote, right? But as a member of this society I've agreed to abide by its laws - first as an accident of birth and then when I matured through my own free will because, like I said, I'm free to leave. Humans aren't bound to their environment beyond physical requirements.
    Our laws typically exist to protect the freedom/liberty of others. So, if your will is to take another man's life, then you are choosing to deny him of his liberty. This concept of liberty comes, in part, from Judeo-Christian scripture. Why you choose to kill him or not kill him is something I cannot answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I've brought up the differences between forms of government now and during Biblical times. Even though people did move about then it has to be vastly easier to do so now. Heck, even within the US there is tremendous variability from locality to locality where one can move to enjoy what type of government one likes. Not to mention the (relatively) easy way one can be involved in shaping said government, say, if one didn't want to move. So the damage on your free will is negligible.


    Jesus did say to pay your taxes. Granted he was mocking Caesar and the material world as nothing but horseshit.
    Again, this has nothing to do with free-will as I am using the term.

    ---------- Post added April 28th, 2017 at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was April 27th, 2017 at 11:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I disagree on that interpretation. Jesus didn't say anything about being gay. Granted, the bible does but I disagree that it is referring to homosexuality as we know it. Certainly not gay marriage or monogamous relationships resulting in a family. I doubt they could conceive of those or it would have been mentioned specifically. Rather, the need for those dictates is to stop men from curtailing the adultery commandment by sleeping with other men. This is something truly straight men have a hard time considering, but it certainly is as true today as it was then...just scroll through craigslist or grindr.
    You can disagree all you want, but you are in the minority. So, good luck with that. I'm just pointing out that if you want the prescriptive laws from the bible, those laws telling you what to do, then understand the consequences.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post

    Yes, you have the free-will to choose between right and wrong, but there IS a right and wrong according to the Bible. The church forces people to tithe, no? Granted they don't have the physical force they once had but if you want to receive sacraments you'd better be up on your payments.
    Yup. The Bible does offer us a description of right and wrong. The church, some churches, requires tithing and others request it. The key word here is church. You have the choice of whether to attend a church and what church to attend. Unlike being a Christian, my nationality is a birthright. You'd like to force me to tithe to the United Church of America. I understand how you are trying to impose a certain irony here, pretending like the progressive cause is virtuous and even biblical. Unfortunately, for your argument, it is sort of left thudding softly on the pavement since you are engaging with a libertarian without any religious affiliation. I do understand how this would have played out better against one of more pious members. Maybe, it would be better to let you engage with one them so you can achieve the impact you were hoping for.
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  10. #90
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Our laws typically exist to protect the freedom/liberty of others. So, if your will is to take another man's life, then you are choosing to deny him of his liberty. This concept of liberty comes, in part, from Judeo-Christian scripture. Why you choose to kill him or not kill him is something I cannot answer.


    Again, this has nothing to do with free-will as I am using the term.

    ---------- Post added April 28th, 2017 at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was April 27th, 2017 at 11:59 PM ----------

    You can disagree all you want, but you are in the minority. So, good luck with that. I'm just pointing out that if you want the prescriptive laws from the bible, those laws telling you what to do, then understand the consequences.
    Sure. But the debate is about the true meaning of the Bible and how it is to be applied in life.

    ---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post


    Yup. The Bible does offer us a description of right and wrong. The church, some churches, requires tithing and others request it. The key word here is church. You have the choice of whether to attend a church and what church to attend. Unlike being a Christian, my nationality is a birthright. You'd like to force me to tithe to the United Church of America. I understand how you are trying to impose a certain irony here, pretending like the progressive cause is virtuous and even biblical. Unfortunately, for your argument, it is sort of left thudding softly on the pavement since you are engaging with a libertarian without any religious affiliation. I do understand how this would have played out better against one of more pious members. Maybe, it would be better to let you engage with one them so you can achieve the impact you were hoping for.
    You answer is therefore "I'm a libertarian and not a christian so this is none of my concern"

    ---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Our laws typically exist to protect the freedom/liberty of others. So, if your will is to take another man's life, then you are choosing to deny him of his liberty. This concept of liberty comes, in part, from Judeo-Christian scripture. Why you choose to kill him or not kill him is something I cannot answer.
    Denying someone medical attention or protection from hooligans is not protecting someone's liberty. Just the opposite. A business owner who has been "taxed" by the black hand will testify to how not free he is.

    ---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post


    Again, this has nothing to do with free-will as I am using the term.
    How are you using it then?
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  11. #91
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure. But the debate is about the true meaning of the Bible and how it is to be applied in life.

    ---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------



    You answer is therefore "I'm a libertarian and not a christian so this is none of my concern"

    ---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 PM ----------



    Denying someone medical attention or protection from hooligans is not protecting someone's liberty. Just the opposite. A business owner who has been "taxed" by the black hand will testify to how not free he is.

    ---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------



    How are you using it then?
    I'm going to address your last question first. Free will. It seems there is some confusion regarding free will as it relates to god and Christianity and general free will. Yes, I can freely choose to move or be a vegetarian or all sorts of things. However, this has little to do with my free will to believe in god.

    I think this article explains the difference between freedom of actions and freedom of will.
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

    You have chosen to exclusively focus on our freedom of actions, or freedom as defined by what we may capably do. I am noting that Christianity/Judaism is concerned with freedom of will, our moral responsibility. Yes, you can tax me to pay for your moral responsibility (akin to the Samaritan demanding payment from others to help the wounded foreigner). However, then you have usurped free will from others and, maybe more importantly, you expressed very little of your own free will. You have passed on your moral responsibility to others. There is nothing Christian about this. No matter how noble you believe your cause may be.

    My point is that you have no moral authority to claim righteousness and any insistence on imposing such a view is the antithesis of the Judeo-Chrsitian view of free will.
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  12. #92
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I'm going to address your last question first. Free will. It seems there is some confusion regarding free will as it relates to god and Christianity and general free will. Yes, I can freely choose to move or be a vegetarian or all sorts of things. However, this has little to do with my free will to believe in god.

    I think this article explains the difference between freedom of actions and freedom of will.
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

    You have chosen to exclusively focus on our freedom of actions, or freedom as defined by what we may capably do. I am noting that Christianity/Judaism is concerned with freedom of will, our moral responsibility. Yes, you can tax me to pay for your moral responsibility (akin to the Samaritan demanding payment from others to help the wounded foreigner). However, then you have usurped free will from others and, maybe more importantly, you expressed very little of your own free will. You have passed on your moral responsibility to others. There is nothing Christian about this. No matter how noble you believe your cause may be.

    My point is that you have no moral authority to claim righteousness and any insistence on imposing such a view is the antithesis of the Judeo-Chrsitian view of free will.
    That's a somewhat thick article I don't care to read. But I think I get what you're saying. Although I don't think free will = moral responsibility, the article said it was connected to moral responsibility, no? "such as being aware—or failing that, being culpably unaware—of relevant alternatives to one's action and of the alternatives' moral significance." your source.

    So the practice of your free will does not necessarily lead to moral good.

    BUT, for the purpose of this debate, its been agreed that the teachings of Christ ARE a moral good. Right?

    So if, as Christians, we are certain of that, what would be the problem with ensconcing that in law?
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's a somewhat thick article I don't care to read. But I think I get what you're saying. Although I don't think free will = moral responsibility, the article said it was connected to moral responsibility, no? "such as being aware—or failing that, being culpably unaware—of relevant alternatives to one's action and of the alternatives' moral significance." your source.

    So the practice of your free will does not necessarily lead to moral good.

    BUT, for the purpose of this debate, its been agreed that the teachings of Christ ARE a moral good. Right?

    So if, as Christians, we are certain of that, what would be the problem with ensconcing that in law?
    For the purposes of this debate, it is agreed that Jesus' teachings are moral. However, free will isn't based on what others do. It is based on each individual's own moral responsibility. If you force someone to adhere to Jesus' teachings then their own free will is irrelevant. If I am aware of Christ and his message, but am only following his message because it is forced, then I am not expressing free will to adhere to Jesus and am not a true follower of Christ. Likewise, forcing others to do what I am obliged to do morally does not make me a better follower. There is a practical reason why this may be true. I'll offer two examples.

    1) Different people have different interpretations of the bible. Consider the biblical view of homosexuality. Now, you are entitled to your interpretation, but it is obviously not shared by all (or even most) Christians. So, per free will, everyone must follow Christ in the way that the believe is morally responsible per their own understanding of his teachings.

    2) Different people may find different paths to his teachings. Consider charity itself. It would not be anti-Christian to hold the view that all charity is not equal. It can be argued by well-meaning people that some forms of charity are harmful. Free will is about expressing one's own desire to do well based on what they believe is the best path towards that end. Furthermore, by imposing the nature of charity on someone, you may be forcing someone to perform an act that they find morally irresponsible.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    For the purposes of this debate, it is agreed that Jesus' teachings are moral. However, free will isn't based on what others do. It is based on each individual's own moral responsibility. If you force someone to adhere to Jesus' teachings then their own free will is irrelevant. If I am aware of Christ and his message, but am only following his message because it is forced, then I am not expressing free will to adhere to Jesus and am not a true follower of Christ. Likewise, forcing others to do what I am obliged to do morally does not make me a better follower. There is a practical reason why this may be true. I'll offer two examples.
    But again, you always have the ability to disobey so your free-will isn't impinged in any way. How many Christian martyrs were executed for doing just that?

    Plus, backing up, I don't see where obeying God's laws has anything to do with preserving other people's liberty as you claimed. That is man's construct, no? I mean it isn't Thou Shalt Not Kill Because Murder Deprives Someone of Their Liberty. His laws are to be obey just because.

    ---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    1) Different people have different interpretations of the bible. Consider the biblical view of homosexuality. Now, you are entitled to your interpretation, but it is obviously not shared by all (or even most) Christians. So, per free will, everyone must follow Christ in the way that the believe is morally responsible per their own understanding of his teachings.
    True, and interpretations change. Yet in this example there was no problem with conservatives forcing people and denying them the free-will to marry who they chose.

    So, do we only "force" people where we are all in agreement or absolutely sure? Thou Shalt Not Kill, Steal...adultery, eh, no need to bother with making that a law. Covetous? No biggie.

    ---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It can be argued by well-meaning people that some forms of charity are harmful.
    How so?
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But again, you always have the ability to disobey so your free-will isn't impinged in any way. How many Christian martyrs were executed for doing just that?
    I've already explained this based on the meaning of free will. If you disagree with the definition I offered, then it is up to you to provide a better definition and explain why it is more appropriate. Please keep in mind our reference is not generic free will, but Christianity's use of the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Plus, backing up, I don't see where obeying God's laws has anything to do with preserving other people's liberty as you claimed. That is man's construct, no? I mean it isn't Thou Shalt Not Kill Because Murder Deprives Someone of Their Liberty. His laws are to be obey just because.

    ---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 PM ----------

    His laws are to obey just because? Ok. Please offer evidence that for Christians, god's word is to obey just because.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    True, and interpretations change. Yet in this example there was no problem with conservatives forcing people and denying them the free-will to marry who they chose.
    1) You are misusing the term free will.
    2) Forcing and Denying seems to be a contradiction.
    3) Based on your logic, denying gays the right to marry is just and a proper expression of Christian morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So, do we only "force" people where we are all in agreement or absolutely sure? Thou Shalt Not Kill, Steal...adultery, eh, no need to bother with making that a law. Covetous? No biggie.

    ---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 PM ----------



    How so?
    I am making the point that the foundation of our laws emanate from the bible. It does not mean all of our laws can be traced to a biblical passage. It does not mean every biblical passage has been made into law. The Judeo-Christian faiths via the concept of free will is the basis of our society. It recognizes the individual and the individual's importance in choosing right and wrong. In taking personal responsibility. You seem to have trouble grasping this concept of free will because all you are interested in is hammering home some sort of misguided point.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How so?
    I can offer two examples. One as a specific example and one as a philosophical example.
    1) Providing charity for a group like Planned Parenthood which uses much of its resources towards abortion services. Obviously, if you are against the practice of abortion then this charity produces great harm.
    2) Some people believe that charity can result in an increase in dependent behavior. So, offering charity to people who have other options is a detrimental.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  16. #96
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    His laws are to obey just because? Ok. Please offer evidence that for Christians, god's word is to obey just because.
    That would be for you to explain as it was you that made the claim. I don't remember anything like that in the Bible...preserving others liberty. I may be wrong though.

    For example, honoring the sabbath - a completely arbitrary choice of day, no? Other than it was the day that God supposedly rested. However, I do remember something about having a day to rest one's work animals. So maybe there is something in there about preserving others' liberty.

    ---------- Post added at 04:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I can offer two examples. One as a specific example and one as a philosophical example.
    1) Providing charity for a group like Planned Parenthood which uses much of its resources towards abortion services. Obviously, if you are against the practice of abortion then this charity produces great harm.
    2) Some people believe that charity can result in an increase in dependent behavior. So, offering charity to people who have other options is a detrimental.
    I'd argue that that isn't charity as Christ defined it saying to give everything away with no regards for the 'morrow.

    ---------- Post added at 04:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I've already explained this based on the meaning of free will. If you disagree with the definition I offered, then it is up to you to provide a better definition and explain why it is more appropriate. Please keep in mind our reference is not generic free will, but Christianity's use of the term.
    You're going to have to explain it then, not just post a link.

    ---------- Post added at 04:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    1) You are misusing the term free will. How so?
    2) Forcing and Denying seems to be a contradiction.
    3) Based on your logic, denying gays the right to marry is just and a proper expression of Christian morality.
    Possibly, though I'd argue that it's based on an incorrect interpretation and was easy enough for a super-majority to impose on an extreme minority. But there wasn't such a strong campaign for implementing sanctions against adultery or divorce, were there? Again, cafeterian Christians selecting what works for them.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That would be for you to explain as it was you that made the claim. I don't remember anything like that in the Bible...preserving others liberty. I may be wrong though.

    For example, honoring the sabbath - a completely arbitrary choice of day, no? Other than it was the day that God supposedly rested. However, I do remember something about having a day to rest one's work animals. So maybe there is something in there about preserving others' liberty.


    ---------- Post added at 04:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 AM ----------

    First, you made a claim. Now, there is nothing wrong asking me to support claims I have made, but that does not remove your own burden to support the claims you have made. You chose to make a claim. I am asking you to support it.

    The problem here is that you are conflating free will, the freedom to do stuff, with free will, the freedom of responsibility. So, you keep falling back on this premise about what the bible says to do. In addition, you are conflating the idea of using judeo-christian morality as a foundation with using the bible as a set of secular laws. On both counts this is incorrect. No credible person is arguing that the U.S. is a theocracy or that we are literally a Christian nation. Some people may unwisely use this term as shorthand, but it is very clear that our government was founded under the principle of not sponsoring any single religion. However, and this is important, our legal system and legal principles are guided by Judeo-Christian philosophy, chiefly, free will as it meant in a Judeo-Christian context.

    Why is this an important distinction? Several times you have referred to what Jesus said referring charity. That was his advice to his followers or those who would come to choose to become Christians. However, his teachings don't directly apply to Jews (among others) at all. Again, I go back to the story you offered with the Samaritan. You offered the story. Yet, you are choosing to walk away from one of its central lessons. Personal responsibility for one's actions. Jesus offers a prescription for his followers. Our nation is not based on Jesus' prescriptions. However, it is based on the ability of individuals to choose to follow his prescriptions if they desire.

    Finally, yes, some laws our based on morals that are pulled from the bible. And this is confusing. Why select to make laws that pick on gay marriage and not insist on laws concerning charity. Maybe this is your central point. That our laws are sometimes confusing and contradictory when it comes to personal responsibility versus biblical values. If this is, indeed, your point, I do not disagree with you. Why is the federal government making laws concerning marriage at all? However, this goes back to the concept of whether it is acceptable for the government to legislate morality. I think the government also attempts to provide incentives for behavior which it believes strengthens society. So, at best it is confusing, but it does not alter the basic foundation of our nation. We are a nation of laws which rests on the premise of individual responsibility. The idea that such a foundation precludes having functional borders or demands absolute charity of all of its citizens is irrational at best and self-destructive at worst.
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    First, you made a claim. Now, there is nothing wrong asking me to support claims I have made, but that does not remove your own burden to support the claims you have made. You chose to make a claim. I am asking you to support it.
    Looking over the covenants and commandments in the bible I can't see anything that refers to the personal liberty of others being protected. I'd have to say that most of them are irrational and unprovable. God won't destroy all of humanity again, will provide a certain geographic area (to a certain people, not all people), etc. Christ promises immortality. Being there is no means of redress with God there simply is no way to reason with his dictates. We are left with simply "follow my orders or else"

    ---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    First, you made a claim. Now, there is nothing wrong asking me to support claims I have made, but that does not remove your own burden to support the claims you have made. You chose to make a claim. I am asking you to support it.

    The problem here is that you are conflating free will, the freedom to do stuff, with free will, the freedom of responsibility.

    However, and this is important, our legal system and legal principles are guided by Judeo-Christian philosophy, chiefly, free will as it meant in a Judeo-Christian context.
    Which is which as regards the last bit?

    ---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    Why is this an important distinction? Several times you have referred to what Jesus said referring charity. That was his advice to his followers or those who would come to choose to become Christians. However, his teachings don't directly apply to Jews (among others) at all [I disagree, they may feel that way but his message is for everyone]. Again, I go back to the story you offered with the Samaritan. You offered the story. Yet, you are choosing to walk away from one of its central lessons. Personal responsibility for one's actions. Jesus offers a prescription for his followers. Our nation is not based on Jesus' prescriptions. However, it is based on the ability of individuals to choose to follow his prescriptions if they desire.
    Right, and if we choose to follow those prescriptions through the government I don't see the problem. You are still free to disobey. True, you're now bringing down the ire of both God and the government but, eh. Like I said martyrs had their skin ripped off and wore it as a cloak rather than follow the dictates of government. I'm sure you can survive being a tax protestor.

    ---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The idea that such a foundation precludes having functional borders or demands absolute charity of all of its citizens is irrational at best and self-destructive at worst.
    I'm not sure about the borders part, but the absolute charity is clear.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Looking over the covenants and commandments in the bible I can't see anything that refers to the personal liberty of others being protected. I'd have to say that most of them are irrational and unprovable. God won't destroy all of humanity again, will provide a certain geographic area (to a certain people, not all people), etc. Christ promises immortality. Being there is no means of redress with God there simply is no way to reason with his dictates. We are left with simply "follow my orders or else"

    ---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------



    Which is which as regards the last bit?

    ---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------



    Right, and if we choose to follow those prescriptions through the government I don't see the problem. You are still free to disobey. True, you're now bringing down the ire of both God and the government but, eh. Like I said martyrs had their skin ripped off and wore it as a cloak rather than follow the dictates of government. I'm sure you can survive being a tax protestor.

    ---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------



    I'm not sure about the borders part, but the absolute charity is clear.
    You can keep repeating the same arguments, but it has now gone full circle. You have shown a misunderstanding of the term free will, but have not made an argument against it. As such, your arguments are not valid rebuttals or contradictions to anything I've expressed. I think, if you wish to continue this, then either accept the concept of free will I've argued or offer an actual rebuttal against it. Do the former and you may as well concede the debate, failure to do the later is essentially a concession as well. Up to you.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You can keep repeating the same arguments, but it has now gone full circle. You have shown a misunderstanding of the term free will, but have not made an argument against it. As such, your arguments are not valid rebuttals or contradictions to anything I've expressed.
    You've argued no concept of free will. Please do so and be specific as I've previously asked.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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