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  1. #161
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So by forced I'm going to take it to mean that people are programmed to believe? Is that right? As opposed to being forced through threat of coercion - which was your example given, being forced to follow the laws of the government.
    Why are you asking to me to confirm your words? You said you believe in god due to force and non-believers chose not to believe due to free will. Stop moving the goalposts here. I am not talking about government for the moment. I am just addressing your own comment here and trying to resolve the contradiction you presented.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  2. #162
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Why are you asking to me to confirm your words? You said you believe in god due to force and non-believers chose not to believe due to free will. Stop moving the goalposts here. I am not talking about government for the moment. I am just addressing your own comment here and trying to resolve the contradiction you presented.
    Because the contradiction is not mine, it is something you made up. Non-believers are also forced - they suffer threat of coercion - but they, like believers, have free will to believe or not believe. The force is still there.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #163
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because the contradiction is not mine, it is something you made up. Non-believers are also forced - they suffer threat of coercion - but they, like believers, have free will to believe or not believe. The force is still there.
    Stop it. You claimed you were forced to believe. When I asked you who was forcing you to believe in God, you answered
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    God is. And if I don't I'm punished.


    When I asked you how disbelievers exist you answered:
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Free will.

    Force is not compatible with free will. You cannot be forced to do something and then explain it as an act of free will.

    Now, answer the question. How do you resolve this contradiction that you have created?

    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  4. #164
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You cannot be forced to do something and then explain it as an act of free will.
    Sure you can. I've explained it many times. You have free will whether you obey the law or not - doesn't matter if it is God's law or man made as I've explained - and you are coerced through threat of force to comply..."forced". If you didn't have free will there would be no need for force, everyone would comply - there would be no law breakers or anyone going to hell.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #165
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure you can. I've explained it many times. You have free will whether you obey the law or not - doesn't matter if it is God's law or man made as I've explained - and you are coerced through threat of force to comply..."forced". If you didn't have free will there would be no need for force, everyone would comply - there would be no law breakers or anyone going to hell.
    If I put a gun to your head and forced you to vote for Donald Trump, would your vote be an act of free will?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  6. #166
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    If I put a gun to your head and forced you to vote for Donald Trump, would your vote be an act of free will?
    Is complying the only choice? I could try to get away...maybe disarm you or just refuse to comply. Seems like I have a lot of choices. Is that free will?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #167
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Is complying the only choice? I could try to get away...maybe disarm you or just refuse to comply. Seems like I have a lot of choices. Is that free will?
    So, then you are implying that if I put a gun to someone's head and forced them to pull the lever for Donald Trump, then you would consider their vote an act of free will?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  8. #168
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, then you are implying that if I put a gun to someone's head and forced them to pull the lever for Donald Trump, then you would consider their vote an act of free will?
    I'd say they weren't free to make any choice but as long as they had alternatives to pulling the lever their will was free.

    If they didn't have free will you wouldn't need the gun, right? Like maybe someone in a cult, someone who is brainwashed?
    Last edited by CowboyX; June 26th, 2019 at 01:26 AM.
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  9. #169
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'd say they weren't free to make any choice but as long as they had alternatives to pulling the lever their will was free.

    If they didn't have free will you wouldn't need the gun, right? Like maybe someone in a cult, someone who is brainwashed?
    I do not understand your definition of free will. The definition I tend to go by is along the lines of the following:
    "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

    Clearly, in the hypothetical I offered, the person at gunpoint isn't acting at their own discretion. They are acting under the threat of death, i.e. a constraint of necessity. So, what is your definition of free will and where does your definition come from?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  10. #170
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I do not understand your definition of free will. The definition I tend to go by is along the lines of the following:
    "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

    Clearly, in the hypothetical I offered, the person at gunpoint isn't acting at their own discretion. They are acting under the threat of death, i.e. a constraint of necessity. So, what is your definition of free will and where does your definition come from?
    Not really sure, you're the supposed expert on free will. Where does your definition come from? Where does free will go when there's a "constraint"?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #171
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not really sure, you're the supposed expert on free will. Where does your definition come from? Where does free will go when there's a "constraint"?
    So, we have come to a crossroads of which there are a few possible paths.
    1) You are an imbecile having engaged in a debate/conversation without understanding the key terms.
    2) You are engaging in sarcasm and, for whatever reason, trying to avoid providing your own definition.
    3) You know what free will is, do not disagree fundamentally with the definition I provided, but feel cornered and unable to make a reasonable argument or rebuttal which does not sound ridiculous.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  12. #172
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    So, we have come to a crossroads of which there are a few possible paths.
    1) You are an imbecile having engaged in a debate/conversation without understanding the key terms.
    2) You are engaging in sarcasm and, for whatever reason, trying to avoid providing your own definition.
    3) You know what free will is, do not disagree fundamentally with the definition I provided, but feel cornered and unable to make a reasonable argument or rebuttal which does not sound ridiculous.
    Identify your quote properly.

    Not that it really matters. The situation doesn't change with your definition. You are still free to comply or act in any way you wish with the gun pointed at your head. I'd say that's free will.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #173
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Identify your quote properly.

    Not that it really matters. The situation doesn't change with your definition. You are still free to comply or act in any way you wish with the gun pointed at your head. I'd say that's free will.
    I think what you are referring to is the metaphysical definition of free will where lack of free will means that one has no ability to make a choice.

    For example, when someone argues that free will is an illusion, they typically mean that we never have a choice in our actions for whatever we end up doing was what we were destine to do all along and therefore the notion that we possibly could have made a different choice is an illusion so we are literally incapable of making a choice and have no free will. Or a rock rolling down a hill has no choice but to roll down the hill.

    So the conflicting definitions "lack of free will" seem to be:

    Cowboy: "Being incapable of making a choice by the nature of reality or oneself"

    Ibelsd: "Being capable of making a choice but being coerced to making a certain choice (like by threat of death)"

    I'm just posting to hopefully clear up a communication problem and am not taking a side and am not likely to post further in this thread.

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  15. #174
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Cowboy: "Being incapable of making a choice by the nature of reality or oneself"
    No, how did you get that idea?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #175
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    No, how did you get that idea?
    Are you not arguing that as long as one can make a choice they have free will?

    If so, then lack of free well means that one cannot possibly make a choice. In other words, choice is impossible for that person.

  17. #176
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Are you not arguing that as long as one can make a choice they have free will?

    If so, then lack of free well means that one cannot possibly make a choice. In other words, choice is impossible for that person.
    I don't think we're arguing whether or not free will exists, it's more we're stuck on a definition. Ibelsd has offered one that I assume at this point is his own:

    "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

    When is one not operating under the constraint of necessity?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #177
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ibelsd has offered one that I assume at this point is his own
    When you say "his own" do you mean the standard Oxford english dictionary (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/free_will) definition for the term? IE the widely accepted meaning of the term that is generally accepted? Given its wide acceptance and general common usage, Ibelsd's definition stands unless a coherent argument can be forwarded why it shouldn't. Simply asking a question is not forwarding an argument.


    I think the distinction Mican points out is spot on in the difference in definitions between Cowboy and Ibelsd. It doesn't go very far to resolving the contradiction as laid out in post 163, but it is an accurate assessment of how the two debaters are operating off of two different assumptions.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #178
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't think we're arguing whether or not free will exists, it's more we're stuck on a definition. Ibelsd has offered one that I assume at this point is his own:

    "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

    When is one not operating under the constraint of necessity?
    Since I believe in free will (as in I don't think it's an illusion), I would say one is pretty much always not operating under the constraint of necessity

    Going back to the voting analogy. If it was a choice to vote between Trump or Clinton, one does not necessarily have to pull either particular lever. One does not necessarily have to vote for Trump and therefore can vote for Clinton. And one does not necessarily have to vote for Clinton and can vote for Trump.

    And I actually agree with your position regarding the analogy. If one puts a gun to one's head and say "vote Trump or I'll kill you", you still can make the choice to vote for Clinton. You might get killed after making that choice but you were still capable of making the choice and therefore still had free will. It's only when you are completely incapable of choosing to vote for Clinton (such as God or some other being controlled your actions so entirely that it was impossible for you to choose which lever to pull) you were denied free will.

  20. #179
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    [COLOR="#FF0000"]When you say "his own" do you mean the standard Oxford english dictionary (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/free_will) definition for the term? IE the widely accepted meaning of the term that is generally accepted? Given its wide acceptance and general common usage, Ibelsd's definition stands unless a coherent argument can be forwarded why it shouldn't. Simply asking a question is not forwarding an argument.
    Sure, he could have just given the proper citation for his quote, as requested.

    ---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Since I believe in free will (as in I don't think it's an illusion), I would say one is pretty much always not operating under the constraint of necessity
    Could you explain what you mean by that?

    ---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's only when you are completely incapable of choosing to vote for Clinton (such as God or some other being controlled your actions so entirely that it was impossible for you to choose which lever to pull) you were denied free will.
    Ok, so like a puppet on a string, no?

    If so, I've never said anything like that.

    ---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Force is not compatible with free will. You cannot be forced to do something and then explain it as an act of free will.
    Sure it is. As I've explain and Mican has also in his example.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  21. #180
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Could you explain what you mean by that?
    If one has free will to do X or not do X, they do not necessarily have to either and therefore are not operating under the constraint of necessity when it comes to X.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Ok, so like a puppet on a string, no?

    If so, I've never said anything like that.
    You said:

    "You are still free to comply or act in any way you wish with the gun pointed at your head. I'd say that's free will."

    So accordingly, even with extreme coercion (doing X would result in death) as long as one is capable of making a choice and acting on it, they still have free will. So it sounds like it would take a "puppet" scenario (such as someone takes your hand and forces it on the lever that votes for Trump instead of Clinton) to override your free will.

    But either way, you tell me.

    Using the voting scenario, give me an example of someone who wants to vote for Clinton instead of Trump being denied free will when it comes to their vote.
    Last edited by mican333; July 4th, 2019 at 09:06 AM.

 

 
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