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  1. #201
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Not very Christ-like:

    Bahamas hurricane survivors were kicked off ferry over U.S. visa demands


    Balearia Caribbean said it had “the understanding” that the passengers could go to the United States without visas and only learned otherwise after they had boarded.

    “We boarded these passengers with the understanding that they could travel to the United States without visas, only to later having been [be] advised that in order to travel to Ft. Lauderdale they required prior in-person authorization from the immigration authorities in Nassau,” a Balearia spokesman said in a statement sent to WSVN.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #202
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    1) Again. Where in your story did Jesus compel the Samaritan to collect money from others?
    Let's see if I can clear this up.

    The OP and arguments like it are not saying "We need to have taxes to help the poor."

    They are saying "Jesus was happy to help the poor, why aren't you?"

    Your response has the tenor of "Because someone else is trying to force me."

    And the response is. "No one should have to force you, you should want to do it. You should be happy to give your tax money for this. you should be asking, please can I pay more to help!"

    You are right, Jesus never really advocated the use of force to ensure others comply with his teachings. He simply said that if you want to please God, you should choose to do it. And any time you protest helping the poor, you are going against his teachings. It doesn't matter what your excuse for not doing so is. Complaining the mean people want you to is not a valid reason not to do it. There are no moral reasons not to help.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  4. #203
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Let's see if I can clear this up.

    The OP and arguments like it are not saying "We need to have taxes to help the poor."

    They are saying "Jesus was happy to help the poor, why aren't you?"

    Your response has the tenor of "Because someone else is trying to force me."

    And the response is. "No one should have to force you, you should want to do it. You should be happy to give your tax money for this. you should be asking, please can I pay more to help!"

    You are right, Jesus never really advocated the use of force to ensure others comply with his teachings. He simply said that if you want to please God, you should choose to do it. And any time you protest helping the poor, you are going against his teachings. It doesn't matter what your excuse for not doing so is. Complaining the mean people want you to is not a valid reason not to do it. There are no moral reasons not to help.
    Not quite. I mean, that isn't quite my argument. My argument is that being forced isn't an expression of Christian virtue. In other words, taxation and charity are not equivalent. The problem with trying to equate taxation and charity is twofold.
    1) Money generated via taxation may or may not be directed to those in need. May or may not be directed to those in need in a manner which you believe is moral nor effective. Obviously, if one specifically picks a charity it is because they agree with its moral function and believe it will be effective in its solutions. So, someone saying we need taxes to help the poor isn't any guaruntee that money raised from taxes will do that.
    2) Free will. There is nothing virtuous in doing something one is being compelled to do. If I tell you to give a poor person money by holding a knife to your neck, it is not exactly a virtuous choice on your part. You are merely performing an act you have been compelled to via threat. Taxes aren't much different. If I don't pay them I can go to jail.

    I may add a third concept here. The separation between church and state which is a Christian value.
    "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Charity is an act unto God, not unto Cesar. Taxes are an act unto Cesar, not unto God. So, if you are now claiming that doing unto Cesar is a replacement for unto God, well, then.... What have we made into our politicians?

    The disagreement and confusion is over the OP author's and then Mican's very overly-broad use of the word compulsion and what it means to possess free will in decision making. In particular, the Christian meaning of the term. For that, I don't believe any sort of clarity is available. Indeed, they have basically redefined a word to suit their argument and I have no interest in debating common-use words with people whose intentions are ignoble on this topic (I am speaking more of the OP's author than of anyone else).
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  5. #204
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    The disagreement and confusion is over the OP author's and then Mican's very overly-broad use of the word compulsion and what it means to possess free will in decision making. In particular, the Christian meaning of the term. For that, I don't believe any sort of clarity is available. Indeed, they have basically redefined a word to suit their argument and I have no interest in debating common-use words with people whose intentions are ignoble on this topic (I am speaking more of the OP's author than of anyone else).
    Free will isn't used in the OP. Seriously, free will? God? Have you read about him? I'll take a knife to my throat any day compared to his eternal tortures. At least with a slit throat it will be over quickly.

    ---------- Post added at 02:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    1) Money generated via taxation may or may not be directed to those in need. May or may not be directed to those in need in a manner which you believe is moral nor effective. Obviously, if one specifically picks a charity it is because they agree with its moral function and believe it will be effective in its solutions. So, someone saying we need taxes to help the poor isn't any guaruntee that money raised from taxes will do that.
    This seems like a valid point but Christ has an answer:

    Matthew 33But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.

    Matthew 6:25
    Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?
    What someone else does with the money is their problem, not yours. You did your part to get right with God:

    The poor shall never cease out of the land; therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy in thy land" (Deuteronomy 15:11)


    ---------- Post added at 03:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I may add a third concept here. The separation between church and state which is a Christian value. [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=sans-serif]"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Charity is an act unto God, not unto Cesar. Taxes are an act unto Cesar, not unto God. So, if you are now claiming that doing unto Cesar is a replacement for unto God, well, then.... What have we made into our politicians?
    I don't think you're going to find many Christian nationalists that agree with you. Those that believe we were founded as a Christian nation, that is. (For example, insisting that God be on our money)

    Christianity, or any religion, does not hold an exclusive right over the idea of charity. That's in not the point of the OP or this thread. Rather, that when the state practices charity it is congruent with Christ's teachings and you should support it.

    Odd that people will insist on inserting God into the public forum - which Christ said not to:

    Matthew 4so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 5And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. 6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.…
    but when it comes to actually following Christ's teachings, er, no, "don't pick my pocket."
    Last edited by CowboyX; September 12th, 2019 at 01:43 AM.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #205
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Free will isn't used in the OP. Seriously, free will? God? Have you read about him? I'll take a knife to my throat any day compared to his eternal tortures. At least with a slit throat it will be over quickly.
    I never said Free Will was mentioned in the OP. Whatever your take on god and free will isn't the issue. The point is how Christians define free will. Not for me. Not for you. For them. For Christians, belief in god is an act of free will and must be else it is without meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    This seems like a valid point but Christ has an answer:



    What someone else does with the money is their problem, not yours. You did your part to get right with God:
    I am not convinced that the quote you are offering means what you claim it means. It seems like it is simply telling Christians not to be materialistic. That is not the same as worrying about whether the money they donate ends up achieving good. And, look, money is finite. If I have $5 and wish to donate it, any reasonable person would want that $5 to go to the cause or group where they feel it will do the most good. If you feel its the government, great. For most of us... not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't think you're going to find many Christian nationalists that agree with you. Those that believe we were founded as a Christian nation, that is. (For example, insisting that God be on our money)

    Christianity, or any religion, does not hold an exclusive right over the idea of charity. That's in not the point of the OP or this thread. Rather, that when the state practices charity it is congruent with Christ's teachings and you should support it.

    Odd that people will insist on inserting God into the public forum - which Christ said not to:
    No. And that is where you are wrong. When the state attempts to force charity, it is not promoting free will. It is forcing people to provide money to causes they may or may not believe are good/worthy. And I am not here to make arguments for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    but when it comes to actually following Christ's teachings, er, no, "don't pick my pocket."
    It is saying to donate anonymously. I have no problem with people who do that. Not really on point with our discussion though. Again, I am no bible scholar, but you seem to be misreading the passage.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  7. #206
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    Re: Who is my neighbor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I never said Free Will was mentioned in the OP. Whatever your take on god and free will isn't the issue. The point is how Christians define free will. Not for me. Not for you. For them. For Christians, belief in god is an act of free will and must be else it is without meaning.
    Do you mean faith?

    ---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I am not convinced that the quote you are offering means what you claim it means. It seems like it is simply telling Christians not to be materialistic. That is not the same as worrying about whether the money they donate ends up achieving good.
    That's not materialistic?

    ---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    No. And that is where you are wrong. When the state attempts to force charity, it is not promoting free will. It is forcing people to provide money to causes they may or may not believe are good/worthy.
    We've been over this. Christ said not to make any such judgement, just to give. In fact he says to give even more than what is asked. This is a commandment...from God.

    ---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It is saying to donate anonymously. I have no problem with people who do that. Not really on point with our discussion though. Again, I am no bible scholar, but you seem to be misreading the passage.
    How is it not on point? It's saying to expect nothing in return. Not even recognition, let alone a tax deduction.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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