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Thread: Doublethink

  1. #1
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    Doublethink

    The word “doublethink” was first used by George Orwell in his novel 1984. It means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

    Orwell invented the word but the practice existed long before he was born. First Kings 18 describes the contest between Elijah and the prophets of Baal to determine who is the true God. Here is what Elijah said to the people.

    And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.”
    1 Kings 18:21 ESV
    Some of the people practiced doublethink by worshipping both Baal and the LORD. God condemned this practice and demanded that they choose one side or the other.

    There is a form of doublethink that is widely practiced today.

    Most people believe the world came into existence as a result of impersonal natural processes and the life that exists on it came developed over a long period of time by a process of evolution. Others reject this and believe the Bible’s account that God created both the earth and the life that exists on it. And some accept both explanations as being true.

    I wonder what Elijah would say to this third group if he were on earth today? Perhaps it would be something like this: “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Bible is true believe it; if evolution is true believe it.”

    The usual method of reconciling evolution with the Bible is to say that the first eleven chapters of Genesis aren’t literal history. The days of creation are really long periods of time and the story of Noah was a myth or an account of a flood that was local and not world wide.

    This belief is often justified by claiming it will make it easier to convert unbelievers. People will be more likely to believe the gospel if they aren’t required to abandon their belief in evolution.

    Here is something an atheist said on an internet forum that leads me to doubt the effectiveness of this strategy.

    Using reason & logic, I have to reject the story of Noah as a truth. If I reject Noah’s ark as a truth, I cannot accept the genealogy of Jesus Christ as a truth. According to Luke’s gospel, both men are DIRECTLY linked via REAL people.

    IF I reject the genealogy of Jesus Christ, then I cannot accept any other historical record (in the bible) about Jesus. I cannot be sure who he was, because the historical “records” are not be based on FACTUAL information.
    Here is a comment by another atheist:

    I can’t say it’s no longer used, because it is still used heavily – but the concept of “bible as the literal word of God” seems to be falling out of favor at a rapid pace in exchange for a much more liberal allegorical take in christian circles.

    The problem here for Christians is that while at the moment it helps make their position seem more reasonable to those who don’t know better, down the line I see this as the loose thread poking out of the sweater… just begging someone to come over and pull.

    I don’t think science will be the eventual undoing of this particular faith… I think they can manage it just fine for themselves once they have voided their own authority on their own beliefs.
    Even atheists recognize the foolishness of trying to believe the Bible and also believe in evolution. The only way anyone will be able to convert either of these two is to prove to them that the theory of evolution is false and the Bible is true. Jesus said something that applies to this subject:

    If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
    John 3:12 ESV
    If we don’t believe what the Bible says about how the earth was created how can we expect others to believe what it says about how to get to heaven?

    The reason so many people try to reconcile evolution and the Bible is the widespread belief that evolution has been scientifically proved to be true. Bible believers think they must either find a way to reconcile the Bible with evolutionary beliefs or abandon their faith in the Bible.

    The claims made by evolutionists can’t be scientifically tested because they involve things which allegedly took place in the past. Most scientists begin their research believing that everything that exists came about by natural processes and without any kind of divine intervention and this influences their interpretation of the evidence they examine. When they find evidence against evolution they ignore it or interpret it to fit what they already believe.

    There is scientific evidence against evolution and you can find some of it here:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...best-evidences

    Here are two good sites where you can find more evidence:

    http://www.piltdownsuperman.com/

    http://scienceagainstevolution.info/index.shtml
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

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    Re: Doublethink

    I respect people who think and examine the evidence and make rational conclusions based on it. I also respect those who leave themselves room to doubt their own beliefs; to keep an open mind to new information.

    Blind adherence to supposed authority is not something I support, it leads to generally inhuman decision making sooner or later and only enables the worst of us to wield far more authority than they deserve.

    Literal readings of the bible simply fly in the face of observable testable objective facts. Anyone believing in the biblical flood as a literal event is either willfully ignorant or poorly educated on the matter. But I can fully appreciate people who none the less believe in the spiritual teachings of the bible, without needing to believe that ancient stories aren't susceptible to exaggeration over the span of human history.

    Every good idea is earned, and it takes a process to change one's thinking. The breaking down of childhood beliefs and myths of the ancients is not always something that happens overnight. Nor in shedding them are you required to be an atheist. Much in the universe simply isn't known and remains in the realm of mystery, and where there is unknown, there is room for faith.

    In short, I think that people who think for themselves are not of two minds, they are of one mind, their own. Those who simply adhere to the thoughts of others are of no mind at all.
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    Re: Doublethink

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Literal readings of the bible simply fly in the face of observable testable objective facts.
    Claims made by believers in evolution involve events in the past that can neither be observed or tested.

    Blind adherence to supposed authority is not something I support
    My post included links to evidence that contradicts the evolutionary theories that most people believe. Did you investigate that evidence or are you blindly adhering to the authority of those who claim that evolution has been scientifically proved?
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

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    Re: Doublethink

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    Claims made by believers in evolution involve events in the past that can neither be observed or tested.
    Depends on which claims you mean. The bulk of the support for evolution is the record of the remains of life on the planet. There is in fact a whole lot of that material and it is very consistent so it is very well evidenced.

    My post included links to evidence that contradicts the evolutionary theories that most people believe. Did you investigate that evidence or are you blindly adhering to the authority of those who claim that evolution has been scientifically proved?
    I am very well familiar with that work. Much of it has been debunked as outright fraud. Answers in Genesis are outright liars and have been shown to be so more than once. It is pretty clear people will pay heartily to be told what they want to hear and they take full advantage of that, and of you.

    So if you like lies and intentional disinformation, by all means continue to read such sites. They will offer you exactly what you want to hear. If you like the actual truth, double check what they tell you against other sources and you will find out that nearly everything they claim is a deception, carefully concocted to make you feel comfortable in your beliefs which they in turn use to solicit donations and sell products.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Doublethink

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    Most people believe the world came into existence as a result of impersonal natural processes and the life that exists on it came developed over a long period of time by a process of evolution. Others reject this and believe the Bible’s account that God created both the earth and the life that exists on it. And some accept both explanations as being true.

    I wonder what Elijah would say to this third group if he were on earth today? Perhaps it would be something like this: “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Bible is true believe it; if evolution is true believe it.”

    The usual method of reconciling evolution with the Bible is to say that the first eleven chapters of Genesis aren’t literal history. The days of creation are really long periods of time and the story of Noah was a myth or an account of a flood that was local and not world wide.

    This belief is often justified by claiming it will make it easier to convert unbelievers. People will be more likely to believe the gospel if they aren’t required to abandon their belief in evolution.

    Here is something an atheist said on an internet forum that leads me to doubt the effectiveness of this strategy.


    Here is a comment by another atheist:


    Even atheists recognize the foolishness of trying to believe the Bible and also believe in evolution. The only way anyone will be able to convert either of these two is to prove to them that the theory of evolution is false and the Bible is true. Jesus said something that applies to this subject:


    If we don’t believe what the Bible says about how the earth was created how can we expect others to believe what it says about how to get to heaven?

    The reason so many people try to reconcile evolution and the Bible is the widespread belief that evolution has been scientifically proved to be true. Bible believers think they must either find a way to reconcile the Bible with evolutionary beliefs or abandon their faith in the Bible.

    The claims made by evolutionists can’t be scientifically tested because they involve things which allegedly took place in the past. Most scientists begin their research believing that everything that exists came about by natural processes and without any kind of divine intervention and this influences their interpretation of the evidence they examine. When they find evidence against evolution they ignore it or interpret it to fit what they already believe.

    There is scientific evidence against evolution and you can find some of it here:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...best-evidences

    Here are two good sites where you can find more evidence:

    http://www.piltdownsuperman.com/

    http://scienceagainstevolution.info/index.shtml

    Yes, Christians will justify their belief in science through various means, but really I think people aren't just beginning to look at the Bible and say "Wow, that's a lot of bullsh**." They've been doing it for a long time now.

    It has nothing to do with evolution, per se. Don't get me wrong, science as an entire discipline (but especially evolution) has torn tremendous holes into classical theology, philosophy, and Biblical hermeneutics. And when I say that, I mean it's ripped mile-wide holes into them. Religion has made specific predictions about how Nature operates; they've all been wrong, quite frankly. Between geocentrism, Creationist account of our universe, the age of the earth, the origin of species, the age of the universe, etc, the whole entire project has come to a disastrous failure if you wish to interpret the Bible literally. Let alone the historicity of the Bible --because that's filled with dubious details, like Jews in Egypt, etc.

    But I think that the whole game of questioning "Do the Bible's claims make any sense?" has been going on for a long time now. Keep in mind, the entire Scholastic philosophical movement 1,200+ years ago was a large bit in response to the Ancient Greek philosophy, and that's why to this day you see most Christian apologists defending Aristotelian logic and concepts. That whole idea itself was a concession that Christianity was insufficient, and had to be supplemented with Greek philosophy in order to account for the world around them. In fact, the early Catholic church's obsession with geocentrism was based half on scripture and half on Aristotelian (and Ptolemiac) physics.

    This idea that Christianity hasn't modified itself to external sources (specifically Greek philosophy, then Enlightenment philosophy, then the Scientific Revolution, then the changes in geopolitics) is just a bit silly, really.


    I mean, if you took most Christians in America at face value, you'd think that Christianity from its inception supported Enlightenment ideologies (civil liberties, democracy, and capitalism), Greek philosophy (cosmological arguments for the existence of god, teleological arguments for the existence of god), supported the early scientific movement (pro-heliocentrism, etc, the list drags on). Let alone the effects of Pagan religion and religious traditions that have in some cases obviously inserted themselves directly into religious culture (Pagan fertility bunny inserted into Easter, the completely farcical date on which Jesus was born to combat Yule, etc, etc). But Christianity did not start out this way. These are recent modifications. In the next fifty years, there will be nearly universally agreed upon Biblical arguments for why homosexuality will suddenly be 100% permissible. Just like 200 years ago, when there were heavily agreed upon Biblical arguments for why slavery was morally permissible. Now there are nearly universally agreed upon arguments for why slavery is wrong. Or why feminism is okay, or why feminism was not okay.


    I really wish at some point in the Christians would just admit that all this stuff is make-believe. When people realize that they're using a 1,800 - 3,000 year old book of bronze-age morality stories and neolithic mythology to justify the ethical, empirical, and cultural opinions that they would have otherwise had with or without said farcical text --well, nothing will change really. I'd just stop having to hear about all of the sheer nonsense contained in the Bible.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

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