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  1. #61
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    What claim specifically?

    In Post 31 you stated: "Yes but my reference shows that they apply to other companies or employees within that sector by law. It's not voluntary at all." referring to a reference offered in Post 29.

    That has not been shown.

    Neither has the scope of the CBs offered or any kind of support that they are low skilled workers.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    I already explained that if the evidence doesn't fit to support your point then it needs to be dropped, yet you still hold it valid.
    My holding of the data as valid or invalid is irrelevant to the question of whether or not you have addressed the other points of argument.

    Let's say, for the sake of argument that I withdraw that one piece of evidence, what will you do then?




    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Those businesses that can't compete except to squese the desperate aren't moral nor are they real businessmen.
    You seem to be misunderstanding the argument. I am not arguing that the minimum wage is immoral because of the right to freely associate for employers (that is a separate moral argument not made here), but rather because of its negative effects on low skilled workers. Please stick to the argument in this thread rather than side tracking it off topic.

    Do you disagree with the conclusion of the thread? That the minimum wage negatively affects employment for those workers most vulnerable to economic fluctuations, low skilled workers. If you disagree, what reasoning do you have for that disagreement?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #62
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    In Post 31 you stated: "Yes but my reference shows that they apply to other companies or employees within that sector by law. It's not voluntary at all." referring to a reference offered in Post 29.

    That has not been shown.

    Neither has the scope of the CBs offered or any kind of support that they are low skilled workers.



    My holding of the data as valid or invalid is irrelevant to the question of whether or not you have addressed the other points of argument.

    Let's say, for the sake of argument that I withdraw that one piece of evidence, what will you do then?






    You seem to be misunderstanding the argument. I am not arguing that the minimum wage is immoral because of the right to freely associate for employers (that is a separate moral argument not made here), but rather because of its negative effects on low skilled workers. Please stick to the argument in this thread rather than side tracking it off topic.

    Do you disagree with the conclusion of the thread? That the minimum wage negatively affects employment for those workers most vulnerable to economic fluctuations, low skilled workers. If you disagree, what reasoning do you have for that disagreement?
    The reasoning goes like this. Low skill. Whatever that even means has no bearing on the work needing done. Either someone can do or can not do the required tasks. Squeesing the desperate to accept poverty wages unsafe conditions or religion... etc is immoral.

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  3. #63
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I have already answered this in the last post - just to make sure that you don't have as much of a reading problem with what I have to say as you do your own arguments, please quote any objects to the information already provided.
    But you have done a really poor job of it Jim. All contracts are generally protected by law, but that doesn't make them outside the market since all markets require contract law to operate.

    What Squatch feels you need to show to support your case (and I would agree) is that the Noway law requires labor and companies to enter into collective bargaining agreements. But even your evidence indicates that those not represented by unions are not subject to the agreements which implies that not everyone enters them implying they are voluntary rather than mandatory. What you want is to cite a source or law in Norway that mandates collective bargaining.

    And honestly the problem is you are wrong.
    http://www.sa.is/files/COLLECTIVE%20...1325682865.PDF
    "The basis of the Nordic collective bargaining model is that the framework for the
    negotiations is principally determined by agreements between the federations on
    the labour market as opposed to by legislation."

    These are largely private agreements. the agreements are protected by force of law like any private contract but they are not government interference in the market, they are simply the state ensuring the agreements made in the market which is very different.

    Sometimes you just have to recognize your initial claim was not accurate and move on. Happens to the best of us.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  4. #64
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    The reasoning goes like this. Low skill. Whatever that even means has no bearing on the work needing done. Either someone can do or can not do the required tasks.
    But the skill involved in the task does affect the value of that task right? IE a wood carver's output is more valuable to people than someone who simply chops kindling.

    The argument is not that employers are "squeezing" employees, that they are dictating wage rates (in economics we call that monopsony power, which virtually all economic studies have shown that employers in the US do not have, they have to accept the market wage rate), but rather is that value provided by those performing "low skill" jobs in excess of the wages provided.

    I'll use the example from the video in the OP.

    Lets say you are a highschool drop out (a large segment of minimum wage workers are btw). You have very little experience and your ability to perform high value tasks is extremely limited (you can't, say, develop a database for me or weld a car). You can however clean machine parts. That function provides my company with $5/hour of value. You agree to do the job for $4/hour. Now, lets say a minimum wage comes along and I would have to pay you $10/hour.

    Meaning I would lose $5/hour on every hour you work. Where exactly would that money come from?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  5. #65
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    But the skill involved in the task does affect the value of that task right? IE a wood carver's output is more valuable to people than someone who simply chops kindling.

    The argument is not that employers are "squeezing" employees, that they are dictating wage rates (in economics we call that monopsony power, which virtually all economic studies have shown that employers in the US do not have, they have to accept the market wage rate), but rather is that value provided by those performing "low skill" jobs in excess of the wages provided.

    I'll use the example from the video in the OP.

    Lets say you are a highschool drop out (a large segment of minimum wage workers are btw). You have very little experience and your ability to perform high value tasks is extremely limited (you can't, say, develop a database for me or weld a car). You can however clean machine parts. That function provides my company with $5/hour of value. You agree to do the job for $4/hour. Now, lets say a minimum wage comes along and I would have to pay you $10/hour.

    Meaning I would lose $5/hour on every hour you work. Where exactly would that money come from?
    How does cleaning a part have only $5 of value. I reject your example.

    What is value?, The friendly grocery clerk HS dropout who makes shoppers feel valued and helps them gains loyalty. Who is to say he generates less value than the admin who creates a database.

    You have not defined value or skill adequately.

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  6. #66
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    How does cleaning a part have only $5 of value. I reject your example.
    So are you saying that no specific function or task has a specific value to the employer? Should the employer continue to hire the employee if the wage is $10/hour? $100/hour? $1000/hour? What mechanism should an employer (or any purchaser of goods or services) use to determine whether or not they should create a specific job?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdougie
    What is value?
    In economics it is a very specific term. Value is the amount of opportunity cost you would forgo to consume a good or service.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdougie
    Who is to say he generates less value than the admin who creates a database.
    Since the exact value of a good is subjective, the person purchasing the good or service right?

    How much is a glass of water worth? $1? $5? It depends on the person and their circumstance right?

    So if an employer says that cleaning a part is not worth the $10/hour it would cost, what objective metric would you propose to contradict him?




    But all of the above aside, I think answered a very practical question. If you raise the cost of labor from $5/hour to $10/hour, where should the money to pay for that additional cost come from?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  7. #67
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    So are you saying that no specific function or task has a specific value to the employer? Should the employer continue to hire the employee if the wage is $10/hour? $100/hour? $1000/hour? What mechanism should an employer (or any purchaser of goods or services) use to determine whether or not they should create a specific job?



    In economics it is a very specific term. Value is the amount of opportunity cost you would forgo to consume a good or service.



    Since the exact value of a good is subjective, the person purchasing the good or service right?

    How much is a glass of water worth? $1? $5? It depends on the person and their circumstance right?

    So if an employer says that cleaning a part is not worth the $10/hour it would cost, what objective metric would you propose to contradict him?




    But all of the above aside, I think answered a very practical question. If you raise the cost of labor from $5/hour to $10/hour, where should the money to pay for that additional cost come from?
    You seem to like to debate by tossing out canards.

    The one in this debate is. Should minimum wage be a thousand dollars an hour or a hundred?

    If that is how you like to debate I can certainly play along.

    To answer where the money to pay wages comes from. That is revenue.
    If a company relies on squeezing the desperate to accept poverty wages or unsafe conditions or to convert to a religion or any number of possible examples than that business is immoral.

  8. #68
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    How does cleaning a part have only $5 of value. I reject your example.
    Quite an arbitrary reason to reject the example.
    There are many things that could cause that value placement.

    1) A new part (that comes already "clean") could cost $5, so by having the part cleaned, you are essentially providing a "new" part.. at least in function if not in re-sale value.
    2) If cleaning is necessary to function, and it saves $5 of time per hour of another higher skilled and higher paid worker.
    3) If cleaning is completely arbitrary and dependent only on the whim and desire of the owner, and that owner is only willing to part with $5 value.


    And that is only the few I can think of off the top of my head.
    So your rejection is unreasonable and appears to be little more than stone walling.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  10. #69
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Quite an arbitrary reason to reject the example.
    There are many things that could cause that value placement.

    1) A new part (that comes already "clean") could cost $5, so by having the part cleaned, you are essentially providing a "new" part.. at least in function if not in re-sale value.
    2) If cleaning is necessary to function, and it saves $5 of time per hour of another higher skilled and higher paid worker.
    3) If cleaning is completely arbitrary and dependent only on the whim and desire of the owner, and that owner is only willing to part with $5 value.


    And that is only the few I can think of off the top of my head.
    So your rejection is unreasonable and appears to be little more than stone walling.
    Only cleaning one part an hour for a part that costs $5 is not realistic and shows that poor ownership. Same for number 3. Same for number 2.

    The simple fact is that non morally bankrupt well run companies don't depend on the suffering of their employees to survive.

  11. #70
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    But you have done a really poor job of it Jim. All contracts are generally protected by law, but that doesn't make them outside the market since all markets require contract law to operate.
    Therein lies the rub - that CB's are purely economically defined except where they're not. That's why if there is governance around them it kinda implies that they're not purely ecomic.

    What Squatch feels you need to show to support your case (and I would agree) is that the Noway law requires labor and companies to enter into collective bargaining agreements.
    That's not what I've said though -- that was cleared up early on that the agreements are between labor & companies but my argument is that those agreements also apply to groups outside of the agreements. That's where we're at now.

    But even your evidence indicates that those not represented by unions are not subject to the agreements which implies that not everyone enters them implying they are voluntary rather than mandatory. What you want is to cite a source or law in Norway that mandates collective bargaining.
    That's where we are now.

    And honestly the problem is you are wrong.
    http://www.sa.is/files/COLLECTIVE%20...1325682865.PDF
    "The basis of the Nordic collective bargaining model is that the framework for the
    negotiations is principally determined by agreements between the federations on
    the labour market as opposed to by legislation."
    Sure, the 'framework' is but I'm not entirely convinced that legislation of some sort is involved.


    These are largely private agreements. the agreements are protected by force of law like any private contract but they are not government interference in the market, they are simply the state ensuring the agreements made in the market which is very different.
    Except, I contend, in those cases where additional people not part of the union also fall under the agreements. Though I have yet to fully prove this.

    Sometimes you just have to recognize your initial claim was not accurate and move on. Happens to the best of us.
    I don't mind being wrong but I'm just not convinced I am -- it's currently up to me to find the appropriate legislation. Though at the moment, I'm still trying to understand Squatch's exact challenge and determining whether it's worth carrying on given the weird turn of evens regarding slavery/child-labor-H&S laws as unemployment aspects. Until the latter is resolved, it's not really worth my trouble to continue.

    edit: I also forgot to mention that whilst I may be wrong on the points of whether CBs represents a non-minimum wage scenario,

    my point is that

    "the minimum wage negatively affects employment for those workers most vulnerable to economic fluctuations, low skilled workers."


    doesn't really jibe with

    "I have no antipathy for voluntary unions and collective bargaining. I have no support for mandatory joining, dues collection or legal restrictions on working."

    Since at the very least there'd be surrounding legal restrictions on many fronts (e.g. non-slavery, anti-child-labor, and H&S laws) that do restrict working which the CBs have to abide to.
    Last edited by JimJones8934; February 12th, 2014 at 05:21 AM.

  12. #71
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    Only cleaning one part an hour for a part that costs $5 is not realistic and shows that poor ownership. Same for number 3. Same for number 2.
    Your purposely missing the point.
    Lets say the "part" to be cleaned is a "batch" of 1000 sprockets.
    The owner could purchase 1K new sprockets for $6 or take his skilled welder off of a job where the welder is paid $25 an hour, or the owner could hire a person at $5 an hour to dunk each sprocket in a bucket of water.

    None of those factors are decided by the Owner. He doesn't set the cost of sprockets, he doesn't dictate how long it takes to clean the sprockets and his business is build on the backs of skilled labor. That the $5 an hour job exists is simply not a product of immoral anything. The job either exists or it doesn't.

    Finally, your objection continues to be arbitrary and unfounded, why is it unreasonable to take an hour to wash a part well? Paint Brush rollers are cheap, but can take 30min a piece to clean well with a hose. So the above example is a very real life situation. Your basically saying it is immoral to offer a person $5 to clean a $6 tool. As though it is my fault that will only get him a happy meal and won't pay rent.
    It's frankly ignorant.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  13. #72
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your purposely missing the point.
    Lets say the "part" to be cleaned is a "batch" of 1000 sprockets.
    The owner could purchase 1K new sprockets for $6 or take his skilled welder off of a job where the welder is paid $25 an hour, or the owner could hire a person at $5 an hour to dunk each sprocket in a bucket of water.

    None of those factors are decided by the Owner. He doesn't set the cost of sprockets, he doesn't dictate how long it takes to clean the sprockets and his business is build on the backs of skilled labor. That the $5 an hour job exists is simply not a product of immoral anything. The job either exists or it doesn't.

    Finally, your objection continues to be arbitrary and unfounded, why is it unreasonable to take an hour to wash a part well? Paint Brush rollers are cheap, but can take 30min a piece to clean well with a hose. So the above example is a very real life situation. Your basically saying it is immoral to offer a person $5 to clean a $6 tool. As though it is my fault that will only get him a happy meal and won't pay rent.
    It's frankly ignorant.
    So instead of profiting from using the six dollar part he hires someone at the poverty wage to make extra profit.

    How much as extra was not in the example. So if he cleans all 1000 sprokets in a day that is a thousand extra in savings minus the 40 for the wages of the worker. Greedy and immoral.

  14. #73
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    If that is how you like to debate I can certainly play along.
    And your statement that employers were telling workers to go die was not a canard? At least my question highlights an obvious economic truism (cost affects consumption), yours is just blatant hyperbole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie
    To answer where the money to pay wages comes from. That is revenue.
    Ok, so they take a section of their revenue that would have gone to "profits" (retained earnings to be more precise) and that pays for the increased labor cost. That is your argument right?

    I've already dealt with that argument here (I'll quote it below). The problem is, that it still causes unemployment. And that unemployment is predominately in those less well educated and less able to survive through unemployment. So I am left with the same question.

    Why are you, Mdougie, advocating to benefit some by robbing those less well off?

    Ok, lets go beyond what Thomas Sowell called "Stage 1 thinking" and see what the result of that action would be.

    Company A decreases its Net Income by increase costs and keeping Revenues constant. That would lead to two immediate results.

    1) A decrease to the "Retained Earnings" account on the balance sheet, which is the account a company uses to fund future growth, including hiring. That means that an opportunity decrease in that account would lead to a relative decrease in the number of future workers hired (IE relatively higher unemployment).

    2) It would also decrease the NPV of all future earnings, which reduces the price of the stock, which is the same thing as saying it reduces the rate of return for equity holdings. Putting aside any merit the stockholders have to that return (after all it is their life savings that allowed for that job to be created), objectively we can say that this decrease would increase the cost of capital not only for equity, but for debt as well (this is in compliance with the basic tenets of WACC (weight average cost of capital), but you would get the same conclusion using any other finance theory). That means that the relative cost of capital is higher leading to two results. a) Less capital available for growth (which adds to problem 1) and relatively higher debt interest payments (which exacerbates problem 1 by increasing costs).


    So the result of your proposed solution would be to have three drivers working to reduce future growth of the company and thereby future employment opportunities for workers.

    Hence, your solution still causes marginally higher unemployment.



    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Therein lies the rub - that CB's are purely economically defined except where they're not. That's why if there is governance around them it kinda implies that they're not purely ecomic.
    Fine, then show that the ones you referenced are related to large segments of low skilled workers in a similar manner to a minimum wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Sure, the 'framework' is but I'm not entirely convinced that legislation of some sort is involved.
    IE I have no evidence that it is "by law" but I am inclined to believe it is law, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ
    Since at the very least there'd be surrounding legal restrictions on many fronts (e.g. non-slavery, anti-child-labor, and H&S laws) that do restrict working which the CBs have to abide to.
    Whatever you believe I meant when I initially responded to you on this front, you are certainly well aware of my clarification right? I clarified exactly what I meant to you when I pointed out that anti-slavery laws are not an unemployment causing effect because slavery is not employment. That is different from a Health and Safety law which does increase the tacit cost of employment and has been universally regarded as causing marginal unemployment as well.




    So we are left with the same question I offered you in my last response to you.

    Question to opponent. Let's say, for the sake of argument that I withdraw that one piece of evidence, what will you do then?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  15. #74
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    And your statement that employers were telling workers to go die was not a canard? At least my question highlights an obvious economic truism (cost affects consumption), yours is just blatant hyperbole.



    Ok, so they take a section of their revenue that would have gone to "profits" (retained earnings to be more precise) and that pays for the increased labor cost. That is your argument right?

    I've already dealt with that argument here (I'll quote it below). The problem is, that it still causes unemployment. And that unemployment is predominately in those less well educated and less able to survive through unemployment. So I am left with the same question.

    Why are you, Mdougie, advocating to benefit some by robbing those less well off?

    Ok, lets go beyond what Thomas Sowell called "Stage 1 thinking" and see what the result of that action would be.

    Company A decreases its Net Income by increase costs and keeping Revenues constant. That would lead to two immediate results.

    1) A decrease to the "Retained Earnings" account on the balance sheet, which is the account a company uses to fund future growth, including hiring. That means that an opportunity decrease in that account would lead to a relative decrease in the number of future workers hired (IE relatively higher unemployment).

    2) It would also decrease the NPV of all future earnings, which reduces the price of the stock, which is the same thing as saying it reduces the rate of return for equity holdings. Putting aside any merit the stockholders have to that return (after all it is their life savings that allowed for that job to be created), objectively we can say that this decrease would increase the cost of capital not only for equity, but for debt as well (this is in compliance with the basic tenets of WACC (weight average cost of capital), but you would get the same conclusion using any other finance theory). That means that the relative cost of capital is higher leading to two results. a) Less capital available for growth (which adds to problem 1) and relatively higher debt interest payments (which exacerbates problem 1 by increasing costs).


    So the result of your proposed solution would be to have three drivers working to reduce future growth of the company and thereby future employment opportunities for workers.

    Hence, your solution still causes marginally higher unemployment.





    Fine, then show that the ones you referenced are related to large segments of low skilled workers in a similar manner to a minimum wage.



    IE I have no evidence that it is "by law" but I am inclined to believe it is law, right?



    Whatever you believe I meant when I initially responded to you on this front, you are certainly well aware of my clarification right? I clarified exactly what I meant to you when I pointed out that anti-slavery laws are not an unemployment causing effect because slavery is not employment. That is different from a Health and Safety law which does increase the tacit cost of employment and has been universally regarded as causing marginal unemployment as well.




    So we are left with the same question I offered you in my last response to you.

    Question to opponent. Let's say, for the sake of argument that I withdraw that one piece of evidence, what will you do then?
    Those companies that compete by squeezing employees will be replaced by those that don't. The demand for the product or service will remain.

    Simply to say that well company x would hire 5 people at one dollar an hour vs 1 person a 5 an hour doesn't mean 5 an hour minimum wage caused 4 people to be out of work. That is a fallacy.



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  16. #75
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    So instead of profiting from using the six dollar part he hires someone at the poverty wage to make extra profit.
    (please note the response below first..
    But yes.. what is wrong with that? The owner is creating a job and a chance to earn money VS.. not offering that job at all.
    You seem to prefer that such a job didn't exist at all, as though it were wrong to offer money in exchange for labor.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    How much as extra was not in the example. So if he cleans all 1000 sprokets in a day that is a thousand extra in savings minus the 40 for the wages of the worker. Greedy and immoral.
    No, you have the math terribly wrong. maybe my fault, but the idea is that the hour of labor only profits $1 per hour. That he had to clean 1 or 1000 parts in that hour in order to produce that profit is where you are getting confused. I was trying to address your lack of imagination in regards to challenging the reality of cleaning a single part for a dollar's profit.
    I can offer real life examples of where such a job would exist be it a single part that takes an hour to clean, or 1000 parts that take an hour to clean. Both for the same $1 profit per hour.
    Bottom line, you have no basis for your previous rejection of this example.

    The point is the alternative is to NOT offer a job at all, and thus the man has zero income. You seem to prefer that the man had no job rather than offer a wage (any wage) to him.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  17. #76
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Those companies that compete by squeezing employees will be replaced by those that don't. The demand for the product or service will remain.

    Simply to say that well company x would hire 5 people at one dollar an hour vs 1 person a 5 an hour doesn't mean 5 an hour minimum wage caused 4 people to be out of work. That is a fallacy.
    Absolutely it does. You are out of your mind if you think that minimum wage going from 1 to 5 dollars an hour wouldn't cost people their job. You are going to have to support this claim.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    (please note the response below first..
    But yes.. what is wrong with that? The owner is creating a job and a chance to earn money VS.. not offering that job at all.
    You seem to prefer that such a job didn't exist at all, as though it were wrong to offer money in exchange for labor.


    No, you have the math terribly wrong. maybe my fault, but the idea is that the hour of labor only profits $1 per hour. That he had to clean 1 or 1000 parts in that hour in order to produce that profit is where you are getting confused. I was trying to address your lack of imagination in regards to challenging the reality of cleaning a single part for a dollar's profit.
    I can offer real life examples of where such a job would exist be it a single part that takes an hour to clean, or 1000 parts that take an hour to clean. Both for the same $1 profit per hour.
    Bottom line, you have no basis for your previous rejection of this example.

    The point is the alternative is to NOT offer a job at all, and thus the man has zero income. You seem to prefer that the man had no job rather than offer a wage (any wage) to him.
    He would be able to get a job at a well run company that doesn't rely on poverty wages to make profit.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

    ---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Absolutely it does. You are out of your mind if you think that minimum wage going from 1 to 5 dollars an hour wouldn't cost people their job. You are going to have to support this claim.
    The people let go from poorly run companies are hired by well run companies. See Costco vs sams.

  19. #78
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post

    The people let go from poorly run companies are hired by well run companies. See Costco vs sams.
    Different business models, my friend. Just because one company can/will pay a worker a certain amount doesnt mean all companies can/will. This does not support your claim.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  20. #79
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Different business models, my friend. Just because one company can/will pay a worker a certain amount doesnt mean all companies can/will. This does not support your claim.
    They have the exact same business models. Membership based warehouse clubs.

    One squeses people to make profit the other encourages. One is run with morality the other not so much.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    He would be able to get a job at a well run company that doesn't rely on poverty wages to make profit.
    Really? In your world there are no people who are barely worth employing at all?
    In your world everyone is employed?

    Sounds like fantasy, and considering what our actual reality is.. it comes across as more delusional than simply the wishful thinking sort of fantasy.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

 

 
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