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  1. #81
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Really? In your world there are no people who are barely worth employing at all?
    In your world everyone is employed?

    Sounds like fantasy, and considering what our actual reality is.. it comes across as more delusional than simply the wishful thinking sort of fantasy.
    What does barely employable mean?

    I am saying that society is best served by setting a standard for utilization of human capital. That allowing a race to the bottom based on an immoral philosophy is not best for our economy or our capitalist system. It is pretty strait forward.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    What does barely employable mean?
    People who are
    1) Lazy
    2) Unreliable
    3) Inept
    4) Careless
    5) On drugs
    6) Thug-ish
    7) Unambitious.

    etc... etc.. etc. (not necessarily all at once).

    The point is there are many people who are good for little more than pushing buggies or cleaning nick-knacks at some point in their life. Your view forces those people to be unemployed by denying owners the ability to employ those people, and in effect you prevent the system from educating/training such people through reality training and preparing them for a better job.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    I am saying that society is best served by setting a standard for utilization of human capital. That allowing a race to the bottom based on an immoral philosophy is not best for our economy or our capitalist system. It is pretty strait forward.
    It seems to me that it is obviously better for the people I described to be allowed to get a job at all, vs making the jobs they qualify for illegal or call such jobs immoral, or the people who provide them Immoral.

    You said earlier that people would leave immoral companies for good companies, but what you fail to recognize is that those companies will always take from the top, getting the most qualified worker for their money. Your example is woefully incomplete and incapable of addressing people who are barely employable.

    So society certainly would not be best served by following the world view you have forwarded here, or by giving ear to your objections that you have raised here. I hope that no one finds what you have forwarded here persuasive at all, because it would mean that there is more people out there that have no clue how business/economics work or the real life effects actions you would have us take would have.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  3. #83
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    People who are
    1) Lazy
    2) Unreliable
    3) Inept
    4) Careless
    5) On drugs
    6) Thug-ish
    7) Unambitious.

    etc... etc.. etc. (not necessarily all at once).

    The point is there are many people who are good for little more than pushing buggies or cleaning nick-knacks at some point in their life. Your view forces those people to be unemployed by denying owners the ability to employ those people, and in effect you prevent the system from educating/training such people through reality training and preparing them for a better job.
    You described personality traits not skills. Lazy people might have great skills. So might "thuggish" whatever that means. Also, you seem to be describing people who don't want to work in general so those people won't get extra skills anyway. People on drugs are by law prohibited from many jobs. In fact having a lower limit on wages for human capital encourages employers to train their employees rather than use them up and dispose of them. So another benefit of a minimum wage is increasing the amount of skill available in the overall economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It seems to me that it is obviously better for the people I described to be allowed to get a job at all, vs making the jobs they qualify for illegal or call such jobs immoral, or the people who provide them Immoral.

    You said earlier that people would leave immoral companies for good companies, but what you fail to recognize is that those companies will always take from the top, getting the most qualified worker for their money. Your example is woefully incomplete and incapable of addressing people who are barely employable.

    So society certainly would not be best served by following the world view you have forwarded here, or by giving ear to your objections that you have raised here. I hope that no one finds what you have forwarded here persuasive at all, because it would mean that there is more people out there that have no clue how business/economics work or the real life effects actions you would have us take would have.
    No society is best served by providing a lower limit on the price of human capital. This serves the society in government having to make up the difference in costs such as health care, welfare.... It also increases revenue in taxes with out increasing the rate. It promotes training of employees. The race to the bottom is what hurts society.

  4. #84
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    You described personality traits not skills
    So.. what is your point? You asked what "barely employable" means..
    It means people who are lazy enough to be barely worth employing.
    Same thing with every other "Trait".

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    Lazy people might have great skills. So might "thuggish" whatever that means.
    So.. that in no way contradicts my point, or my description.

    You seem to be actively ignoring the fact that there are some people that are so lazy as to be barely worth employing. If your set on continuing such mental gymnastics so as to avoid my point.. there really is very little reason to talk with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    Also, you seem to be describing people who don't want to work in general so those people won't get extra skills anyway.
    Again.. so what, how is that relevant? Do people who don't want to work magically not need a job?

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    People on drugs are by law prohibited from many jobs.
    So people on drugs shouldn't have ANY job in your view?

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    In fact having a lower limit on wages for human capital encourages employers to train their employees rather than use them up and dispose of them.
    How do you figure that?
    The truth is, the lower limit simply abolishes certain jobs from existence, so your stance is that those jobs are immoral, and people who provide them are immoral.

    you have a lot to explain and support.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    So another benefit of a minimum wage is increasing the amount of skill available in the overall economy.
    No it doesn't.
    Thanks for making an unsupported statment, I'm sure you will accept my equal rebutal.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    No society is best served by providing a lower limit on the price of human capital.
    How, where is the evidence of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    This serves the society in government having to make up the difference in costs such as health care, welfare.
    I do not understand this sentence. could you rephrase it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    It also increases revenue in taxes with out increasing the rate.
    That depends on how you want to measure taxes. You certainly seem willing to ignore the taxes the jobs your position destroys and eliminates from existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    It promotes training of employees. The race to the bottom is what hurts society.
    You have referenced "Race to the bottom" several times.. I have no idea what it means.
    Free markets have never produced a "race to the bottom", that is what socialism and gov directed ecconomies do.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  5. #85
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So.. what is your point? You asked what "barely employable" means..
    It means people who are lazy enough to be barely worth employing.
    Same thing with every other "Trait".
    My point is why complain that people who don't want to work don't get jobs. That is a truism. If a company business has a that isn't worth hiring a competent person than the job shouldn't exist.




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So.. that in no way contradicts my point, or my description.
    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You seem to be actively ignoring the fact that there are some people that are so lazy as to be barely worth employing. If your set on continuing such mental gymnastics so as to avoid my point.. there really is very little reason to talk with you.
    If they can only get lazy worthless people to apply they probably don't pay enough. If they don't need a non lazy competent employee the job doesn't need done.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Again.. so what, how is that relevant? Do people who don't want to work magically not need a job?
    People who don't want to work aren't the group we are talking about being affected by min wage. We are talking about people who want to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So people on drugs shouldn't have ANY job in your view?
    Not my view. I simply stated a fact about government precedent in employment. Government mandates many jobs can not be done while on drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    How do you figure that?
    The truth is, the lower limit simply abolishes certain jobs from existence, so your stance is that those jobs are immoral, and people who provide them are immoral.
    The lower limit abolishes no jobs. It causes poorly run companies to improve or go out of business. The demand and thus the jobs to meet that demand will remain.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No it doesn't.
    Thanks for making an unsupported statment, I'm sure you will accept my equal rebutal.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I do not understand this sentence. could you rephrase it?
    Employers that rely on paying poverty wages have employees who take advantage of government programs such as earned income credit. They haven't the money to pay for insurance so they get subsidy or just steal service from the ER. So companies like walmart are receiving government subsidy to be immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That depends on how you want to measure taxes. You certainly seem willing to ignore the taxes the jobs your position destroys and eliminates from existence.
    No positions will be eliminated. Those positions will pay more thus more people will pay taxes as they make above poverty, and it lowers expenses as fewer people rely on government assistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You have referenced "Race to the bottom" several times.. I have no idea what it means.
    Free markets have never produced a "race to the bottom", that is what socialism and gov directed ecconomies do.
    A race to the bottom is when companies in an ever demanding need to grow profit do so by taking from employees by cutting wages and benefits. That is something that happens with no lower limit on the price of human capital.

  6. #86
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    My point is why complain that people who don't want to work don't get jobs. That is a truism. If a company business has a that isn't worth hiring a competent person than the job shouldn't exist.
    First, I complain because your saying it is immoral to seek to employ those people.

    No, not all jobs are worth hiring a competent person.
    For example, I could find a use for a person who is incompetent and lazy and undisciplined to the point of me having to pick them up in the morning for work.. If I didn't have to pay them much.
    Those people are out there aplenty.. there is just a law that prevents me from hiring them (namely a min wage).

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    If they can only get lazy worthless people to apply they probably don't pay enough. If they don't need a non lazy competent employee the job doesn't need done.
    An ignorant assessment. As I said, I can offer you several real life examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    People who don't want to work aren't the group we are talking about being affected by min wage. We are talking about people who want to work.
    You are mistaken to say that they "don't want to work". That is incorrect. They simply do not want to work hard or diligently.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    Not my view. I simply stated a fact about government precedent in employment. Government mandates many jobs can not be done while on drugs.
    Then it stands as irrelevant to my point.. great red -herring.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    The lower limit abolishes no jobs. It causes poorly run companies to improve or go out of business. The demand and thus the jobs to meet that demand will remain.
    False, it causes well run companies to not creat certain jobs that it can bypass in other ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    Employers that rely on paying poverty wages have employees who take advantage of government programs such as earned income credit. They haven't the money to pay for insurance so they get subsidy or just steal service from the ER. So companies like walmart are receiving government subsidy to be immoral.
    Not at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by md
    No positions will be eliminated. Those positions will pay more thus more people will pay taxes as they make above poverty, and it lowers expenses as fewer people rely on government assistance.
    So your just going to put your head in the sand on this point.. gotcha

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    A race to the bottom is when companies in an ever demanding need to grow profit do so by taking from employees by cutting wages and benefits. That is something that happens with no lower limit on the price of human capital.
    A free economy is built on the relationship between the value of labor. A skilled worker will always be worth several times the wage of the barely employable.
    Companies are in competition for skilled workers and that drives up and sets the price (naturally) for reliable, skilled workers.

    There is no "race to the bottom" in a bad sense, there is a race to equilibrium in a free market.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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  8. #87
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    First, I complain because your saying it is immoral to seek to employ those people.
    This was the answer, and a good one to a very ignorant remark, and I quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie
    My point is why complain that people who don't want to work don't get jobs. That is a truism. If a company business has a that isn't worth hiring a competent person than the job shouldn't exist.
    It's remarkably ignorant in two basic respects. First, and foremost, so long as the people who don't work are getting paid with taxpayer money, taxpayers have a right to complain when they could be working at a job, making their money in the private sector (or decreasing their welfare receipts at least), where they're doing something to add to productivity, but instead stay home living off government largesse.

    Second, just because a job's value to an employer is relatively small, it doesn't mean that job is relatively unimportant to the consumer. Supermarkets may employ outside contractors to come in and clean and wax their floors, and those contractors may pay their cleaners and waxers below minimum wage, but the consumer wants to shop in a store with bright shiny floors. So while those floors being shiny are important, the skill to get them that way is minimal.

  9. #88
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    This was the answer, and a good one to a very ignorant remark, and I quote:



    It's remarkably ignorant in two basic respects. First, and foremost, so long as the people who don't work are getting paid with taxpayer money, taxpayers have a right to complain when they could be working at a job, making their money in the private sector (or decreasing their welfare receipts at least), where they're doing something to add to productivity, but instead stay home living off government largesse.

    Second, just because a job's value to an employer is relatively small, it doesn't mean that job is relatively unimportant to the consumer. Supermarkets may employ outside contractors to come in and clean and wax their floors, and those contractors may pay their cleaners and waxers below minimum wage, but the consumer wants to shop in a store with bright shiny floors. So while those floors being shiny are important, the skill to get them that way is minimal.
    If cleaning floors is important than it is important enough to pay the min wage

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    If cleaning floors is important than it is important enough to pay the min wage
    Your lack of support is overwhelming.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  11. #90
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your lack of support is overwhelming.
    It is simply a different mindset. I believe taking advantage of the weak and desperate for wealth is immoral. You think it is okey dokey.

  12. #91
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    It is simply a different mindset. I believe taking advantage of the weak and desperate for wealth is immoral. You think it is okey dokey.
    You have never supported that it was "taking advantage" in a bad way.
    but you are right it is two different mind sets.

    You think every job should provide a "living wage", and ignore the facts that many jobs can not exist AND provide a living wage. While your goal may be good it is disconnected from reality. In your search to provide people with a living wage you actually prevent many from making ANY income at all, and earn experience and contact that would/could lead to a living wage.

    While you are content to paint my position in some negative moral light, instead of recognizing that I too want people to earn a living wage; I am willing to see your good intentions, but recognize the impractical nature and the ignorance which produces it. You seem unwilling to address the fundamental realities that I have pointed out that make your position appear to be willful ignorance for the sake of wishful thinking.

    Among other things.
    -You have not supported why we should see an owner as being immoral for offering people money for jobs, with value that are inherently low.
    Example, why should we see it as immoral for a owner to off $4 an hour for someone to clean $5 worth of parts per hour.. as opposed to purchasing new ones.
    The important aspects of that is that
    1) The owner does not set or invent the underlying forces which set the $4 price as one that produces a profit. So a "good" business man is one that recognizes that it exists.
    2) There is no reason for the gov to step in and make the exchange illegal.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  13. #92
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You have never supported that it was "taking advantage" in a bad way.
    but you are right it is two different mind sets.

    You think every job should provide a "living wage", and ignore the facts that many jobs can not exist AND provide a living wage. While your goal may be good it is disconnected from reality. In your search to provide people with a living wage you actually prevent many from making ANY income at all, and earn experience and contact that would/could lead to a living wage.

    While you are content to paint my position in some negative moral light, instead of recognizing that I too want people to earn a living wage; I am willing to see your good intentions, but recognize the impractical nature and the ignorance which produces it. You seem unwilling to address the fundamental realities that I have pointed out that make your position appear to be willful ignorance for the sake of wishful thinking.

    Among other things.
    -You have not supported why we should see an owner as being immoral for offering people money for jobs, with value that are inherently low.
    Example, why should we see it as immoral for a owner to off $4 an hour for someone to clean $5 worth of parts per hour.. as opposed to purchasing new ones.
    The important aspects of that is that
    1) The owner does not set or invent the underlying forces which set the $4 price as one that produces a profit. So a "good" business man is one that recognizes that it exists.
    2) There is no reason for the gov to step in and make the exchange illegal.
    The problem with defending managements decision to squeeze employees for profit is that you ignore the social cost.

    To allow huge immoral corporations to undercut a minimum wage is to allow them to attack our very society.

    These small businesses with owners as you describe who help those with low skills like teens are already given exemption to minimum wage requirements.

    Walmart or McDonald's or whomever does not need these exemptions and if they do they have avenues to apply.

    I would suggest that large corporations with billions in revenue and assets that balk at paying even ten grand a year to a cleaning lady or parking lot attendant and thus force taxpayers to make up the difference are immoral.

    I would also say allowing restaurants to get away with paying servers less than min is also immoral.

  14. #93
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    The problem with defending managements decision to squeeze employees for profit is that you ignore the social cost.
    There is a difference between defending the decision to do it, and defending the environment under which that is possible. I am doing the latter.
    I am however very interested to hear what the "social costs" are, because I haven't really seen you forward what they are or defend them. I won't just assume that it exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    To allow huge immoral corporations to undercut a minimum wage is to allow them to attack our very society.
    See above.. IE HOW?

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    These small businesses with owners as you describe who help those with low skills like teens are already given exemption to minimum wage requirements
    I have never heard or seen this to be true.
    Please support this assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    Walmart or McDonald's or whomever does not need these exemptions and if they do they have avenues to apply.
    Re above.. what exemptions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    I would suggest that large corporations with billions in revenue and assets that balk at paying even ten grand a year to a cleaning lady or parking lot attendant and thus force taxpayers to make up the difference are immoral.
    How are taxpayers making up the difference.. and of course why should they make up the difference?

    Also, it isn't the corporations fault that the job isn't worth 10K a year. The market is the market and you don't make money by losing money or overpaying for services.

    Quote Originally Posted by MD
    I would also say allowing restaurants to get away with paying servers less than min is also immoral.
    As a former waiter, I am torn on this one.
    First, I don't like that restaurants are exempt, and they could be brought into the fold by unionizing (for a short time).
    On the other hand, with the same skill level as when I pushed buggies I was able to make (at the time) 2-3xs min wage as a waiter.

    I don't see the situation as "immoral" by any stretch.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    There is a difference between defending the decision to do it, and defending the environment under which that is possible. I am doing the latter.
    I am however very interested to hear what the "social costs" are, because I haven't really seen you forward what they are or defend them. I won't just assume that it exists.


    See above.. IE HOW?


    I have never heard or seen this to be true.
    Please support this assertion.


    Re above.. what exemptions?


    How are taxpayers making up the difference.. and of course why should they make up the difference?

    Also, it isn't the corporations fault that the job isn't worth 10K a year. The market is the market and you don't make money by losing money or overpaying for services.


    As a former waiter, I am torn on this one.
    First, I don't like that restaurants are exempt, and they could be brought into the fold by unionizing (for a short time).
    On the other hand, with the same skill level as when I pushed buggies I was able to make (at the time) 2-3xs min wage as a waiter.

    I don't see the situation as "immoral" by any stretch.
    http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte..._overtime.html

    First I would say defending an environment where an act can take place is no different than defending the act in this case.

    Employees involved in cultivation, propagation, catching, harvesting, or first processing at sea of aquatic forms of animal or vegetable life - Section 213(a)(5)

    Just one of many exemptions. Like many on the right you simply don't know what the laws you hate say. Like all the people who haven't read the constitution, but say laws violate it.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Like many on the right you simply don't know what the laws you hate say. Like all the people who haven't read the constitution, but say laws violate it.
    Wow... that sounds like another MD sweeping generalization. This comment implies that you've read the U.S. Constitution. Good for you, if that's the case. Hopefully you're an American who doesn't want to trash it. Bear in mind that reading the Constitution is relatively easy. Understanding and studying the Constitution is another matter. And just in case you're interested in doing that since you seem to have read it and are accusing others of not reading it, this free online college can help you understand it.

    Hillsdale College offers free, not-for-credit online courses by its faculty. These online versions are based upon those in the College’s undergraduate Core Curriculum
    https://online.hillsdale.edu/
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Wow... that sounds like another MD sweeping generalization. This comment implies that you've read the U.S. Constitution. Good for you, if that's the case. Hopefully you're an American who doesn't want to trash it. Bear in mind that reading the Constitution is relatively easy. Understanding and studying the Constitution is another matter. And just in case you're interested in doing that since you seem to have read it and are accusing others of not reading it, this free online college can help you understand it.

    Hillsdale College offers free, not-for-credit online courses by its faculty. These online versions are based upon those in the College’s undergraduate Core Curriculum
    https://online.hillsdale.edu/
    I have read it and understand it quite well. I also know that if someone says show me where it says ...... in the constitution. That person hasn't read the constitution.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I have read it and understand it quite well.
    Then, you must have a high level of respect for it, right?

    I also know that if someone says show me where it says ...... in the constitution. That person hasn't read the constitution.
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Then, you must have a high level of respect for it, right?


    Do you have psychic powers?
    I do have respect for the constitution.

    I have high reading comprehension and I'm just not stupid. However I am good at cold reads and other mentalism.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I do have respect for the constitution.
    Excellent, because some liberals want to get rid of it -- so glad to hear you're someone who respects it.

    I have high reading comprehension and I'm just not stupid. However I am good at cold reads and other mentalism.
    Hummm, online mentalism somehow makes you know something about someone else without support. That's sounds kind of way out there to me MD.
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    [Eye4magic]
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  21. #100
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Excellent, because some liberals want to get rid of it, so glad to hear you're not one of them.
    I know of no liberals who want to get rid of the constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Hummm, online mentalism somehow makes you know thing without support. That's sounds kind of way out there to me MD.
    I know that those who make the comment. Show me where in the constitution it says...... That person either hasn't read the constitution or doesn't remember what it said. They also tend to not understand how law works in general.

    I can show examples right here on the forum. However, that would be rude.

 

 
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