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  1. #221
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    How is that a wash? Again,

    Bob pays for a checking account (say $5). He writes a check to his investment firm. Net cost to the transaction: $5.


    Bob writes a check to Simon. Simon, who also has a checking account, writes a check to his investment firm. Net cost to the economy: $10.
    Bob's checking account costs him $5, so does Simon's. When Bob writes a check to Simon they both have the same costs involved with the transaction so it is a wash.

    All transaction have a cost, I agree, the only way to avoid them would be to have none.

    That the costs are greater for one type of transaction over another, perhaps. Bob's investment firm doesn't charge him fees? They have no costs involved in the transaction?

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Because if the market forces him to pay more, and he does, then Bob is still getting value out of the transaction right?

    The difference between the two scenarios is whether the exchange is voluntary.

    If the exchange is voluntary, we know that both parties are better off from it, correct?[COLOR="Silver"]
    But there still is coercive force whether it is the government ("Bob, you must pay more") or market forces ("Simon, you must work for less"). Since the government has a compelling interest in the welfare of individuals, if Simon is working at a wage where he still qualifies for food stamps, then yes, a raise in the minimum wage is justified.
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  2. #222
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Bob's checking account costs him $5, so does Simon's. When Bob writes a check to Simon they both have the same costs involved with the transaction so it is a wash.

    All transaction have a cost, I agree, the only way to avoid them would be to have none.

    That the costs are greater for one type of transaction over another, perhaps. Bob's investment firm doesn't charge him fees? They have no costs involved in the transaction?
    Count the number of transitions.
    Bob -> investment = 1
    Bob -> Simon -> investment = 2

    You agree all transactions have a cost. Therefore, you agree that 2 transactions cost more than one. We cannot avoid them, but we can optimize them. Make sure each transaction returns some amount of value. You've asked Bob to add an extra transaction, but provided him no additional value.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But there still is coercive force whether it is the government ("Bob, you must pay more") or market forces ("Simon, you must work for less"). Since the government has a compelling interest in the welfare of individuals, if Simon is working at a wage where he still qualifies for food stamps, then yes, a raise in the minimum wage is justified.
    The government is a coercive force of people. The market is a natural phenomenon consisting of people and labor. The market does not dictate that Simon must work for less. The market is a mechanism which, when left on its own, tends to maximize the value in every transaction. You assume that good intentions equates to good outcomes. There are certainly people in government who wish to help. That does not mean they have the ability. The idea that a group of elected pols or some group of bureaucrats can effectively influence market values and commodities in a manner which improves the marketplace is seriously ridiculous. First, you would have to ignore the corruption which is politics. Then, you'd have to imagine that they are absolute geniuses. So, while something like raising the minimum wage SOUNDS great, it comes at a cost. We know some of the short-term costs because we can see them. We can only guess at the long term costs. How do you measure lost value over the course of decades? How do you measure lost productivity from lowered employment? At the very least, if you are going to support a minimum wage, admit their is a downside and simply say you're willing to lose a few jobs and whatever else because you'd like to increase the standard of living temporarily for some subset of people.
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  4. #223
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Bob's checking account costs him $5, so does Simon's. When Bob writes a check to Simon they both have the same costs involved with the transaction so it is a wash.
    Why is the comparison here Bob vs. Simon? Shouldn't it be the total cost from one scenario to another? Simon also has the cost of transferring to the investment account, correct?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    All transaction have a cost, I agree, the only way to avoid them would be to have none.
    Or to assure that all transaction costs are outweighed by the benefits of the exchange, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    That the costs are greater for one type of transaction over another, perhaps. Bob's investment firm doesn't charge him fees? They have no costs involved in the transaction?
    Presumably the investment firm has transaction costs regardless of whether it is Simon or Bob. What is relevant is the extra step of giving the money to Simon rather than directly to the investment firm.





    Maybe a better to frame the question involves the transaction cost associated with lost interest. Presumably you agree that there is a time value to money. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow right (all things being equal)?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    But there still is coercive force whether it is the government ("Bob, you must pay more") or market forces ("Simon, you must work for less").
    The market is not an outside entity, "market forces" is a way of saying "whatever Bob and Simon agree to." There is not market telling Simon what he must work for, only generally what other employers are offering other employees like himself.

    The "market force" can't be coercive because it is simply the mutually beneficial agreed upon price for Simon's labor that Simon and Bob agree to, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    if Simon is working at a wage where he still qualifies for food stamps, then yes, a raise in the minimum wage is justified.
    How so?

    If option A is $5/hour and food stamps

    and option B is $0/hour and food stamps because Simon lost his job due to minimum wage


    Why would raising the minimum wage be justified?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  5. #224
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    The market is not an outside entity, "market forces" is a way of saying "whatever Bob and Simon agree to." There is not market telling Simon what he must work for, only generally what other employers are offering other employees like himself.
    Right, which Bob must adhere to in order to stay in business therefore Simon is coerced into agreeing to work for less than what he believes he is worth...he takes whatever the market dictates.

    ---------- Post added at 06:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    How so?

    If option A is $5/hour and food stamps

    and option B is $0/hour and food stamps because Simon lost his job due to minimum wage


    Why would raising the minimum wage be justified?
    Those aren't the only two choices, he could get the $5 an hour raise and get off food stamps.

    ---------- Post added at 06:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Or to assure that all transaction costs are outweighed by the benefits of the exchange, right?(1)


    Presumably the investment firm has transaction costs regardless of whether it is Simon or Bob. What is relevant is the extra step of giving the money to Simon rather than directly to the investment firm. (2)
    (1) mutually beneficial doesn't mean equal (nor does it have to) the degree to which the exchange is somewhat equitable I'd argue is the problem.

    (2) True.

    ---------- Post added at 06:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Count the number of transitions.
    Bob -> investment = 1
    Bob -> Simon -> investment = 2

    You agree all transactions have a cost. Therefore, you agree that 2 transactions cost more than one. We cannot avoid them, but we can optimize them. Make sure each transaction returns some amount of value. You've asked Bob to add an extra transaction, but provided him no additional value.
    I disagree. My argument is that he's been getting an additional value all along. Yours and Squatch's reliance on "market forces" which, like a spirit, materialize and vanish whenever you need a convenient fudge factor to limit employees pay. Your "it is what it is" explanation is unsatisfactory.

    ---------- Post added at 06:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    The government is a coercive force of people. The market is a natural phenomenon consisting of people and labor. The market does not dictate that Simon must work for less. The market is a mechanism which, when left on its own, tends to maximize the value in every transaction.
    You're saying there is no coercive force in the market. How do you support that?
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  6. #225
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, which Bob must adhere to in order to stay in business therefore Simon is coerced into agreeing to work for less than what he believes he is worth...he takes whatever the market dictates.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this response.


    Bob must adhere to what he and Simon agree to to stay in business?

    Or do you mean that he must match the price of other employers? If that is what you mean I would point out that it isn't necessarily the case at all. Certainly, nothing about other employers offering that wage is actually forcing Bob to also offer it. He can offer a higher wage or a lower wage. The reason he will probably offer a similar wage to the other employers is because he is getting the same amount of value from the labor as they are.

    I think you feel the market is where the wage comes from, when really the wage is determined by the value being produced by the labor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    Those aren't the only two choices, he could get the $5 an hour raise and get off food stamps.

    But as I've shown through out this thread, those are the two choices. Increases in minimum wage drive unemployment. So Simon is more likely to find himself with no earnings rather than the additional $5.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    (1) mutually beneficial doesn't mean equal (nor does it have to) the degree to which the exchange is somewhat equitable I'd argue is the problem.
    What do you mean by equal here?

    Also, who determines if the exchange is equitable?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    (2) True.
    And I think that that is what Ibelsd was driving at. By diverting the money from the investment firm through a middle man (in this case Simon) you are increasing the cost of the investment without increasing the value.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    I disagree. My argument is that he's been getting an additional value all along.
    How? What additional value is Bob deriving from paying Simon a higher wage?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    You're saying there is no coercive force in the market. How do you support that?
    Not to step on Ibelsd's toes, but it is true by definition.

    A market is defined as a voluntary exchange of goods or services between two or more people. (The technical definition is more like: "a market is an overlap in the minimum selling price of the lowest marginal provider with the maximum buying price of the highest marginal consumer.")

    Given that this overlap occurs only when both parties find the exchange beneficial and that either party is free to reject the price then, by definition, coercion (the use of force to obtain compliance) cannot be occurring.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  7. #226
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I disagree. My argument is that he's been getting an additional value all along. Yours and Squatch's reliance on "market forces" which, like a spirit, materialize and vanish whenever you need a convenient fudge factor to limit employees pay. Your "it is what it is" explanation is unsatisfactory.


    You're saying there is no coercive force in the market. How do you support that?
    How do you support your claim that Bob has been getting additional value? Based on whose metrics?

    If Bob was underpaying, then Simon surely could have found employment elsewhere in order to meet his true value. The market is a mechanism. It is the sum total of all transactions which occur in the economy. The science of economics has demonstrated how prices, wages, and production naturally arbitrate in a free market. The principles are rooted in mathematics, not supernatural spirits. The market is simply a term to describe this complex array of math which describes how prices and wages get set. In other words, market forces are a descriptive term. You are using the term market like it is a being.

    I am not saying there is no coercive force IN the market. Politicians are in the market and are a coercive force which exists within it. The market is a descriptive term so it makes no sense to claim it can be coercive. It would be like calling the color brown oppressive.
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post

    If Bob was underpaying, then Simon surely could have found employment elsewhere in order to meet his true value.
    How so? When everybody in the same area is paying the same according to the "market". Also, that looking for other work is a cost to Simon.

    ---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    But as I've shown through out this thread, those are the two choices. Increases in minimum wage drive unemployment. So Simon is more likely to find himself with no earnings rather than the additional $5.

    Many things drive unemployment. How much more likely?

    ---------- Post added at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    How? What additional value is Bob deriving from paying Simon a higher wage?
    He's been getting an extra value from paying the lower wage.

    ---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Also, who determines if the exchange is equitable?
    All concerned parties involved, that includes government.

    ---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    A market is defined as a voluntary exchange of goods or services between two or more people. (The technical definition is more like: "a market is an overlap in the minimum selling price of the lowest marginal provider with the maximum buying price of the highest marginal consumer.")

    Given that this overlap occurs only when both parties find the exchange beneficial and that either party is free to reject the price then, by definition, coercion (the use of force to obtain compliance) cannot be occurring.

    People must engage in these exchanges in order to exist, the market sets the price for your labor, no?, so you are not free to refuse the exchange.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #228
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    How so? When everybody in the same area is paying the same according to the "market". Also, that looking for other work is a cost to Simon.


    All these things factor into Simon's value to Bob. Of course, if Simon is choosing to limit his opportunities to a given area, then he is choosing to restrict his own value. Bob isn't forcing Simon to not look outside a given area, is he? That is Simon's choice. Choices can have costs. Obviously, looking for a job has a cost as well and factors into Simon's value. If he is truly being paid less than he is worth, then the cost of looking for a job would be outweighed by the benefits he could possibly receive. You are actually posing an argument against minimum wage which has probably escaped you.

    You have inferred that Simon's value may differ in one area when compared to another. You suggest a higher minimum wage would allow him to remain in his current area even though his value in that area is relatively low to his value in other areas. So, as you suggested, a minimum wage would keep Simon in place. However, his services/skills/talent/labor would still remain in want in other areas.

    As an example:
    Minimum wage is $10/hr

    Simon lives in the city Bacon. He is an apprentice at Bacon Plumbing Co (BPC). The city of Bacon has lots of unemployed people looking for internships and entry level jobs. So, Simon's boss, Bob, is paying $10/hr.

    A few hours away, in the town of Eggs, Egg Plumbing Co (EPC) cannot seem to find enough entry level employees. They are offering $13/hr to try to fill their openings.

    Simon asks his boss, Bob, for a raise. Bob tells Simon that he'd like to pay him more, but does not have the budget for it. The truth is that Bob could pay more, but does not really need to. If Simon leaves, there are ten other guys who could fill the job for the same minimum wage Simon is currently earning. Simon considers leaving and sees that EPC is hiring, but Simon would have to move since a two hour commute would be too much. Still, for an extra $120 a week, it would be pretty nice for Simon.

    Well, then, Bacon's esteemed city council decides to raise the minimum wage to $12. So, Simon now gets a $2 raise and decides it isn't worth it to move to the town of Eggs. He loves Bacon. The problem, of course, is that Eggs still needs entry level workers. The available workers cannot afford to move and those with some money, like Simon, no longer feel motivated to move.

    So, rather than two workers making $23/hr, you have one worker making $12/hr. Your minimum wage hike just cost the economy $11/hr.
    With Min Wage: Simon --> 12/hr
    Without Min Wage: Simon --> 13/hr + Simon's Replacement --> 10/hr.

    This phenomena, which you have inferred without meaning to, is very real and has a real negative impact on the economy. Why do farmers need foreign workers? It is this same principle. You pay people (welfare for example) as an incentive not to move and then look the other way when farms hire persons below the prevailing wage and... voila! You've got an unemployed native population and markets struggling to find workers.

    A minimum wage is kind of an arrogant solution to a problem. More than arrogant, it is a sledgehammer to a problem which is really about behavior more than structure. The issue is probably not that Simon cannot get more money somewhere, it is that he is unwilling to look. Minimum wage does not offer him any incentive to seek his true value which will negatively impact him every day of his life. I am not going to pretend that Bob is a nice guy. In my example, I didn't paint Bob as some saint. He took advantage of the situation. But, he took advantage of a situation created by decisions made by a naive city council and a complacent employee.
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  10. #229
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Why wouldn't the unemployed people be going to make the $13?
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  11. #230
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why wouldn't the unemployed people be going to make the $13?
    They are unemployed and less mobile. Less likely to be able to move. Are people who are unemployed going to be able to drive a few hours (times 2) in the HOPE of getting a job? That's a $50 trip in gas alone. And if that's your only question, then you are already conceding that you've given Simon a reason to settle for accepting $1 less per hour then he could earn elsewhere. In other words, you've accepted that a minimum wage incentivizes Simon to earn less than he is capable of earning.
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    They are unemployed and less mobile. Less likely to be able to move. Are people who are unemployed going to be able to drive a few hours (times 2) in the HOPE of getting a job? That's a $50 trip in gas alone. And if that's your only question, then you are already conceding that you've given Simon a reason to settle for accepting $1 less per hour then he could earn elsewhere. In other words, you've accepted that a minimum wage incentivizes Simon to earn less than he is capable of earning.
    Yet you expect Simon to make that trip. Not to mention having Simon take on all that expense. For some reason that isn't a penalty to Simon? It's not Ok for Bob to take on extra expenses, but when its the worker its fine.
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yet you expect Simon to make that trip. Not to mention having Simon take on all that expense. For some reason that isn't a penalty to Simon? It's not Ok for Bob to take on extra expenses, but when its the worker its fine.
    This has nothing to do with Bob. You have all but admitted that you are offering an incentive for Simon to earn less than he could on the open market. That's the point here and you're only response is to misdirect the argument. It isn't a penalty for Simon to try to seek employment elsewhere. Simon is in a position to seek better opportunities, but thanks to a minimum wage, he has no incentive to try. Frequently, the focus on the minimum wage is how it harms employers. However, I am also showing that the minimum wage actually harms workers and the unemployed.
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    This has nothing to do with Bob. You have all but admitted that you are offering an incentive for Simon to earn less than he could on the open market. That's the point here and you're only response is to misdirect the argument. It isn't a penalty for Simon to try to seek employment elsewhere. Simon is in a position to seek better opportunities, but thanks to a minimum wage, he has no incentive to try. Frequently, the focus on the minimum wage is how it harms employers. However, I am also showing that the minimum wage actually harms workers and the unemployed.
    I don't even get the premise. Why did the first down raise its wage? Does it cost more to live there?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    When everybody in the same area is paying the same according to the "market".
    Then in what sense is Simon being underpaid?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    How much more likely?
    If we look at the literature above (you’ll notice I covered this way back in the OP), we find that the general view is something between 1% to 2.4% increase in unemployment for every 10% increase in minimum wage.

    If we are talking the hypothetical raise you offered above, (from $5/hour to $10/hour) then Simon is between 10% and 24% likely to be out of a job.


    He is also likely to have lose existing benefits or working conditions that were part of his employment (as detailed in the OP).


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    He's been getting an extra value from paying the lower wage.
    What do you mean “extra?” How do you determine it is “extra?”


    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    All concerned parties involved, that includes government.
    I’m not sure why the government is a concerned party here.

    But what happens if Simon and Edgar agree that a wage below the minimum wage is equitable?



    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    People must engage in these exchanges in order to exist, the market sets the price for your labor, no?, so you are not free to refuse the exchange.
    No. The market, as Ibelsd points out, isn’t a thing or a person. The “market” in the manner you are using it is simply all the other offers for your labor.

    That no one shares your personal opinion on the value of your labor doesn’t make the market coercive. That you would suffer consequences for not engaging in a trade does not make the trade coercive. I would suffer consequences from not brushing my teeth, that doesn’t make plaque “coercive.” Coercion is, by the definition already offered, the use of force by one party to compel another party into action. It is not the natural consequences of inaction.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't even get the premise. Why did the first down raise its wage? Does it cost more to live there?
    Why the town of Bacon raised its minimum wage isn't relevant to the argument being made. If you do not understand the premise, then I'd suggest you shouldn't be making the argument that you support a minimum wage. You do not have a grasp of fundamental concepts of economics and there is no empirical way in which you could support your conclusion. You are essentially saying, you support a minimum wage because it makes you FEEL good. Well, I cannot argue how you feel. However, if we are discussing the actual economics and trying to have an objective discussion on the topic, then you are simply in over your head.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Why the town of Bacon raised its minimum wage isn't relevant to the argument being made. If you do not understand the premise, then I'd suggest you shouldn't be making the argument that you support a minimum wage. You do not have a grasp of fundamental concepts of economics and there is no empirical way in which you could support your conclusion. You are essentially saying, you support a minimum wage because it makes you FEEL good. Well, I cannot argue how you feel. However, if we are discussing the actual economics and trying to have an objective discussion on the topic, then you are simply in over your head.
    I understand that there are concepts and even laws of economics, I disagree that they need to be always followed - as you so blindly do - or that they are as I've supported.

    ---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    No. The market, as Ibelsd points out, isn’t a thing or a person. The “market” in the manner you are using it is simply all the other offers for your labor.

    That no one shares your personal opinion on the value of your labor doesn’t make the market coercive. That you would suffer consequences for not engaging in a trade does not make the trade coercive. I would suffer consequences from not brushing my teeth, that doesn’t make plaque “coercive.” Coercion is, by the definition already offered, the use of force by one party to compel another party into action. It is not the natural consequences of inaction.
    That's a very limited definition of that word, and I'm not sure I agreed to it. Coercion exists in the rights and rules we've all agreed to.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I understand that there are concepts and even laws of economics, I disagree that they need to be always followed - as you so blindly do - or that they are as I've supported.
    You didn't say you disagreed with my premise. You said you didn't get it. While you may be aware that the concepts exist, how can you dismiss a concept which you do not understand. On what basis can you claim your concepts are better if you don't understand what you are comparing them against? So, now, you're argument is that since you cannot understand the laws/concepts of economics, that you'll simply dismiss them out of hand. So, if you have no actual rebuttal to my arguments then we'll have to conclude that you are out of ideas and that you have conceded the debate.
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You didn't say you disagreed with my premise. You said you didn't get it.
    Well, there was little to get beyond some blackboard economics. Nothing that relates to the real world in any meaningful way.

    ---------- Post added at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    While you may be aware that the concepts exist, how can you dismiss a concept which you do not understand. On what basis can you claim your concepts are better if you don't understand what you are comparing them against? So, now, you're argument is that since you cannot understand the laws/concepts of economics, that you'll simply dismiss them out of hand.
    I never said that.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  20. #239
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Well, there was little to get beyond some blackboard economics. Nothing that relates to the real world in any meaningful way.


    I never said that.
    You said, and I quote:
    I don't even get the premise.
    Blackboard economics??? Ok, that's fine. You still have not constructed an argument which could be confused as a rebuttal. Your claim that my example does not relate to the real world is simply your opinion. Considering that you don't even understand the principles involved, it is an odd thing for you to claim. So, one last time. Either construct a rebuttal to my argument or concede the debate. Admit that you cannot, with any rationality, justify a raise in the minimum wage or make a rational argument. As of now, your justification is based on your emotion, how it makes you feel. Nothing more nor less. Obviously, I am not going to debate your feelings with you.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  21. #240
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You said, and I quote:


    Blackboard economics??? Ok, that's fine. You still have not constructed an argument which could be confused as a rebuttal. Your claim that my example does not relate to the real world is simply your opinion. Considering that you don't even understand the principles involved, it is an odd thing for you to claim. So, one last time. Either construct a rebuttal to my argument or concede the debate. Admit that you cannot, with any rationality, justify a raise in the minimum wage or make a rational argument. As of now, your justification is based on your emotion, how it makes you feel. Nothing more nor less. Obviously, I am not going to debate your feelings with you.
    When pressed you said in your example that the reason for the increase was irrelevant. So which is it? It may have well been emotional...so? You're the one contradicting yourself.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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