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  1. #621
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I think this is undoubtedly the case, it just depends on time horizons as you mentioned. We did see something similar with bonuses and pay increases following the decrease in corporate tax rates last year. It seems likely that something similar would happen here, though certainly less flashy and over a longer period of time.


    Sure, the relevant questions from my chair are; 1) how much of that additional value accrues to the worker vs. the owner vs. other capital investments? IE if that additional $1.10 is the result of a new machine that makes the laborer more efficient, shouldnít the owner of the capital used to buy that machine get a portion of that $1.10?
    2) Far more importantly, imo, who makes that decision? Do the parties involved in the transaction make that decision? Or do we, who have far less knowledge of the details and are operating under some veil of rational ignorance interject ourselves to make that decision?


    Iím pretty sure Iíve trotted out my favorite Thomas Sowell quote here a couple of times so Iíll spare you, but I completely agree with this sentiment.
    The point of this thread, and almost all of my participation is to establish what those trade-offs are. If individuals want to pick one side of the trade off vs the other, that is a subjective value judgement (though we can have some discussion about the morality involved).
    Having that kind of discussion would be something that hasnít yet occurred in this thread. Starting with an agreement that there is a trade off, why would someone pick one alternative over the other? All weíve had so far (not including you of course) is generally the denial that there really is a trade off.


    Perhaps, though I think this is a fatal conceit of econometrics. It isnít so much lack of data as it is category of data. It is really hard to apply statistical techniques to subjective measurements. There are a host of people out there who do try that though (I encounter them a lot in my role in marketing) so it isnít as if there is some kind of consensus of impossibility.
    The problem with understanding that type of data here is that the result must, (almost by definition) be a nearly one size fits all response. Those factors might fit company X well and could result in a more efficient economic outcome, but result in a deadweight loss for company Y with the same factors. I donít think we have a good record of economic coordination of this sort.


    Fair reminder (I tend to get wrapped into the details of my response, sorry). As I hinted at above, this is, by far, the most cogent defense of the MW Iíve encountered (not just here, but elsewhere) that doesnít involve invoking monopsony power. You could be right about the net effect of a hyper targeted wage law being positive. There are two major factors imo:
    1) Do the factors to be measured actually result in economic deadweight loss? IE are we actually shifting the efficient frontier by correcting for these factors or are we just redistributing? For example, if the law resulted in a higher or more efficient use of capital it could be a net benefit. If it just shifts money from the equity owners to labor, it probably wonít.
    2) Can the government coherently manage such a program. I think you and I share a doubt on this issue. Iím not sure any governmental program could effectively manage the scope and data requirements of such an effort, let alone not let political, social, and corruption influence their application.
    I think we agree on many of the major points here. There is some disagreement on whether MW could be effectively calculated, but we both share a pretty high level of distrust for the government which would enact such a plan. Anyhow, I appreciate the conversation. Probably best to leave it here for now.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  3. #622
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    I think we agree on many of the major points here. There is some disagreement on whether MW could be effectively calculated, but we both share a pretty high level of distrust for the government which would enact such a plan. Anyhow, I appreciate the conversation. Probably best to leave it here for now.
    Ok, since you two agree, let me throw my couple "cents worth" at it.

    MW for all of the US is just plain untenable at the moment.
    Let's explore Wa St where I live. My company pays $4.00/hr more if you work at our Seattle branch as apposed to my side of the state for the same job.

    Now imagine a smaller town in TN VS Seattle. What basic wage works for all or even most areas? A "living wage" (rent/food/power/water/basic necessities) varies greatly across our fairly large country.

    How can we discern what a "fair" MW should be that could apply everywhere in the US in a manner that everyone would be equal???

    Answer:
    It can not be done (at the moment to be sure).
    A wage that afforded basic living expenses in Seattle would amount to a much higher standard of living in many other areas of the country...

  4. #623
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A wage that afforded basic living expenses in Seattle would amount to a much higher standard of living in many other areas of the country...
    So?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #624
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    So?
    IOW, there is no MW that works for the country as a whole
    and/or
    You are legislating some people to be better off/wealthier than others by virtue of a MW...

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  7. #625
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You are legislating some people to be better off/wealthier than others by virtue of a MW...
    I suppose. What would be so awful about that?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #626
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Ok, since you two agree, let me throw my couple "cents worth" at it.

    MW for all of the US is just plain untenable at the moment.
    Let's explore Wa St where I live. My company pays $4.00/hr more if you work at our Seattle branch as apposed to my side of the state for the same job.

    Now imagine a smaller town in TN VS Seattle. What basic wage works for all or even most areas? A "living wage" (rent/food/power/water/basic necessities) varies greatly across our fairly large country.

    How can we discern what a "fair" MW should be that could apply everywhere in the US in a manner that everyone would be equal???

    Answer:
    It can not be done (at the moment to be sure).
    A wage that afforded basic living expenses in Seattle would amount to a much higher standard of living in many other areas of the country...
    Yes, I think the disparity a company would have to pay in one locale vs another could be a difficult obstacle to overcome. I'll even add to the complexity of your argument. In light of legislation either passed or pending which forces companies to prove gender equal pay, how would a company handle this? If a company hired more women in location B than A while the living wage was greater in A than B, it would most definitely skew their potential pay gap. I am not offering a prescription for wages here. That was never my intention. I am offering that with any scheme to balance pay by the government, there are trade-offs which need to be both stated and agreed upon. The ideological argument being made by most progressives attempts to hide the trade-offs and I find this makes their arguments weak and untenable. Now, it is possible, if we properly discuss the trade-offs and work through the complexities (one of which you noted and which I made even more complex) that we can find ways to reduce the complexity or navigate through the complex issues and then agree upon a settlement.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  10. #627
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I suppose. What would be so awful about that?
    WOW! You see no issue with gov't policy enriching some poor people but not others, on purpose?

    Isn't the whole idea of a MW in the first place is to treat people "fairly" and allow them to support their basic needs?

    Person A in Seattle barely gets by. Person B in TN has much more because of MW (or Seattle vs the east side of the state).
    IOW, person B is getting much more than basic living expenses while person A struggles because the gov't is "helping" everyone get a living wage by virtue of a MW..

    ---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Yes, I think the disparity a company would have to pay in one locale vs another could be a difficult obstacle to overcome. I'll even add to the complexity of your argument. In light of legislation either passed or pending which forces companies to prove gender equal pay, how would a company handle this? If a company hired more women in location B than A while the living wage was greater in A than B, it would most definitely skew their potential pay gap. I am not offering a prescription for wages here. That was never my intention. I am offering that with any scheme to balance pay by the government, there are trade-offs which need to be both stated and agreed upon. The ideological argument being made by most progressives attempts to hide the trade-offs and I find this makes their arguments weak and untenable. Now, it is possible, if we properly discuss the trade-offs and work through the complexities (one of which you noted and which I made even more complex) that we can find ways to reduce the complexity or navigate through the complex issues and then agree upon a settlement.
    I think you are spot on about the trade offs involved . If people could honestly discuss the subject with that in mind, I'm sure it would be more productive.

    A progressive commonly is a person that basically has the same thoughts/ideas/political leanings as liberals, but at the same time feels superior to them, because of a more enlightened outlook and you are correct how they typically present this issue.

  11. #628
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    WOW! You see no issue with gov't policy enriching some poor people but not others, on purpose?

    Isn't the whole idea of a MW in the first place is to treat people "fairly" and allow them to support their basic needs?

    Person A in Seattle barely gets by. Person B in TN has much more because of MW (or Seattle vs the east side of the state).
    IOW, person B is getting much more than basic living expenses while person A struggles because the gov't is "helping" everyone get a living wage by virtue of a MW..[COLOR="Silver"]
    Couldn't person A move to TN? They're getting paid the same rate for the same job, no? Why should it matter where it is.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  12. #629
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Couldn't person A move to TN? They're getting paid the same rate for the same job, no? Why should it matter where it is.
    So now person A, who barely gets by, needs to save/barrow enough money to move out of state/across the country, away from their families, so they can hopefully enjoy the "benefits" of MW?

    Wow, this does just keep getting better for the poor?
    Now we can direct/encourage where they live too?
    This is a special kind of social engineering not seen in the US (yet, hopefully never....)...

  13. #630
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    So now person A, who barely gets by, needs to save/barrow enough money to move out of state/across the country, away from their families, so they can hopefully enjoy the "benefits" of MW?
    What if they had to move? Would it be better to be getting paid less for the same job?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  14. #631
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    No, it's you taking you're ball and going home. It'd be like you insisting on having your goals count for five point to two for me then blaming the ref and scorekeeper on their being no game.
    Well to continue the analogy, it would be like like me insisting that my goals count for 5 and yours count for 2 and you agreeing to that scoring metric. Then the ref saying "no, you aren't allowed to play the game with those rules."

    Why? Why should a ref be the arbiter for the handicap you and I assign our goals? A handicap we both agree to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    I suppose there are cases where the immutable characteristics of an individual should be considered.
    Ok, but that would be a preference. IE you would prefer that we not use immutable characteristics to grant the privilege of being allowed to earn a living. What if some other jurisdiction doesn't have that preference? If we are operating under your hypothesis that business is a priviledge then there shouldn't be an legal restriction of preventing blacks, or gays, or whites, or women, or whatever from owning a business right? It would simply be a matter of what the public wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    To perform an abortion? No, not a right.
    No, I said to get an abortion. There are regulations on when and how you can get an abortion, right? If so, does that make getting an abortion a privilege or is your criteria incorrect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy
    That involves the use of the public commons which would be the privilege in that case.
    Not according to the Supreme Court. The government's function in applying permits to publish speech on "common space" is solely to ensure coordination and appropriate safety standards. It is absolutely not a conference of privelege and must be considered on a "shall issue" basis (iE the permit is to be issued unless the government can elaborate a compelling interest to abridge the right).

    See: Skokie v. NSPA, Smith v. Collin, National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, Collin v. Smith (I'm happy to elaborate these for you if you wish).



    Interesting paper out of NBER on Seattle. As I've noted previously, studies based on Seattle are widely becoming the gold standard in economics journals thanks to the Seattle City Council's foresight in providing far more detailed data than previous legislative changes. This paper serves as a replication of the University of Washington paper I posted several pages back. Applying similar techniques to a now more robust database. The results are still the same.

    While hourly wage rates increased by 3% (less than the total increase due to the law, indicating that people were making above the minimum wage prior to the law changing) hours decreased by 6-7% which means that overall take home pay decreased as well.

    In this case, by about $74/month. It also estimated that 5000 fewer jobs were created than would have been without the increase.

    Nerd point: This study found that the elasticity of labor was far lower (-2.6 vs -0.2) than previously estimated in other studies. Meaning employers were far more likely and able to to replace low wage labor with substitutes (think automation) as wage rates increased.

    An interesting note by the authors on that point: "An elasticity of -2.6 suggests that low-wage labor is a
    more substitutable, expendable factor of production. The work of least-paid workers might be
    performed more efficiently by more skilled and experienced workers commanding a higher
    wage." I've noted this before in the thread that minimum wage disemployment tends to happen to the most economically vulnerable. Those without experience and skills.

    https://www.nber.org/papers/w23532.pdf
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.Ē -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  15. #632
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Well to continue the analogy, it would be like like me insisting that my goals count for 5 and yours count for 2 and you agreeing to that scoring metric. Then the ref saying "no, you aren't allowed to play the game with those rules."

    Why? Why should a ref be the arbiter for the handicap you and I assign our goals? A handicap we both agree to?
    Because we've already agreed that there'd be a ref and rules - let's say we entered a tournament. I've already got three jackets and you're my buddy and I want you to win one so I say I'm agreeable to scoring against the rules.

    ---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Ok, but that would be a preference. IE you would prefer that we not use immutable characteristics to grant the privilege of being allowed to earn a living. What if some other jurisdiction doesn't have that preference? If we are operating under your hypothesis that business is a priviledge then there shouldn't be an legal restriction of preventing blacks, or gays, or whites, or women, or whatever from owning a business right? It would simply be a matter of what the public wanted.
    Right, I think so. If some other jurisdiction doesn't have that preference or any others, I don't know. I want to say so what. The point is you're allowed the privilege of owning a business - or maybe more correctly a type of business - dependent on, yes, what the public wants, or doesn't want. "We don't want a Wal-Mart" "We don't want our restaurant operators to be typhus carriers"

    ---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    No, I said to get an abortion. There are regulations on when and how you can get an abortion, right? If so, does that make getting an abortion a privilege or is your criteria incorrect?
    You said "around" abortion. I've been involved in two and don't remember any regulations concerning the recipient. Healthcare, as it stands now, is a privilege beyond the basic ER requirements.

    ---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post

    Not according to the Supreme Court. The government's function in applying permits to publish speech on "common space" is solely to ensure coordination and appropriate safety standards. It is absolutely not a conference of privelege and must be considered on a "shall issue" basis (iE the permit is to be issued unless the government can elaborate a compelling interest to abridge the right).

    See: Skokie v. NSPA, Smith v. Collin, National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, Collin v. Smith (I'm happy to elaborate these for you if you wish).
    No need. So is there a similar ruling for the issuing of business licenses?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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