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  1. #21
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Then next time, don't agree, because I'm not asking pointless questions. Your answers are important or I wouldn't ask the questions. If you don't answer accurately, you're just wasting everyone's time.
    Asking me my honest opinion on belching wastes everyone's time. If that's not true, please tell me how the information that I don't care if one belches forwards the debate.

    ---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Then you missed the above statement that exposure of the breast and nipple during breastfeeding, which without the baby would be indecent exposure, is a special pleading fallacy.

    in·de·cent ex·po·sure
    noun: indecent exposure
    1. the crime of intentionally showing one's sexual organs in public.
    Breasts are not sexual organs.

    And even if the definition of "Indecent exposure" were to include breasts, that does not mean that the law is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I'm not against breastfeeding. If women want to, fine. But it is indecent to do it in front of other people, just as exposing a breast and nipple in public would be without the baby.
    In your opinion, that is.

  2. #22
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Support

    *note* you have not supported any of your other fallacy charges.
    IF you are arguing that public breastfeeding should be allowed because it is settled that women have historically done so, then that is an appeal to tradition. IF you are arguing that our culture is not advanced enough to accept breastfeeding in public, then arguing that advanced automatically means better is appeal to novelty. But it appears most of your rebuttal was against formula feeding, which I never came close to advocating, so I'm not really sure *what* your points really were.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is not the premise, the premise is that one can not say the business OUGHT NOT TOO accommodate a specific "natural and common to humanity need"
    Such as urination or nudity.
    I would argue that business that fear "pissing off 52% of the population" as you put it, OUGHT (because of good business practice) accommodate.
    Accommodate how, exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It is also normal to do it in public.
    No, it is not, at least not in my town. I read that some seventy percent of mothers breastfeed, but I see it in public only a couple times a year. I'm in an area with lots and lots of young families. If there were a lot of women publicly breastfeeding, I would see them. I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    This is evidenced by the fact that if you see a man masturbating in a theater you and everyone else in the theater will call the police or take action. That is the normal response to such action.
    However, if a woman whips a breast and attaches a baby to to it, nothing will happen, and only a select few will either take notice or be offended at all.
    I suspect people complain a lot more often than you think. Occasionally those complaints make the news, and that suggests there are many more occurrences that happen without anyone but those involved knowing about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You are a clear minority...
    Which means absolutely nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Breastfeeding however has a long history ,here, as being publicly acceptable.
    Appeal to tradition fallacy, but in any event, you're wrong. It is only in the last few decades that it has become generally acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    This places the burden on you to offer reason for the change you are demanding.
    Because newer statutes aside, it is indecent exposure.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    so she could do it in the lounge around OTHER PEOPLE but just not around you?
    The corner lounge areas were empty. Such areas are exactly what some people advocate that businesses provide to nursing mothers, because they are semi-private, away from other people, but without pushing the mother and child into a back hall or bathroom. If I were heading to the lounge and saw a mother breastfeeding, I could choose to continue or turn away. I would not be offended. But once I'm sitting in the theater, to have her come in and expose herself is completely different. Do you really not see the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Where is the logic? What about a lounge is better than a dark theater?
    An empty or remote lounge allows privacy for the mother, and distance for people who don't want to be subjected to the indecency. Isn't that the kind of accommodation you are wanting businesses to provide? If not, then what is it you expect? Where is the logic to her being allowed to sit in front of a bunch of other people and expose her entire breast?

    ---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Asking me my honest opinion on belching wastes everyone's time. If that's not true, please tell me how the information that I don't care if one belches forwards the debate.
    Don't be obtuse. I was looking for you to agree that belching would bother you, and I responded to that to further my argument. If you can't see where it was heading, there's no point in explaining it to you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #23
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Don't be obtuse. I was looking for you to agree that it would bother you, and I responded to it that way as part of an argument. If you can't see where it was heading, then that isn't my fault.
    Then I'll play along. I don't care for the sound of someone belching and the reason is that I personally find the sound rather disgusting (which if the reason I'd forward if I had to pick a reason why I don't like it).

    And to move things ahead, if you're going to ask me why I find it disgusting, I'll answer "I don't know. I just find it disgusting". I assume that that is where you are heading - me just admitting that it's my feeling that it's gross.

    And again, even if it did bother me, I wouldn't seek to outlaw it. What I would do if someone belched and I had a problem with it is probably ignore it or at worst give them a dirty look or make a negative comment. If they were continuously belching and I was getting annoyed, I'd ask them to stop it. If they refused, I'd speak to someone who works at the restaurant to get them to stop. But I would not go to my legislature and seek to create a law against public belching.
    Last edited by mican333; January 23rd, 2014 at 07:10 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Breasts are not sexual organs.
    Scientifically, you're right. But to the common man on the street, science doesn't matter. Indecency laws prohibit the public display of nipples. There's no getting around that, Mican. So a mother who exposes her full breast is violating indecency laws, and the common understanding of decency. If you want to argue we should make an exception for breastfeeding, you have to explain why it is necessary.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #25
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Indecency laws prohibit the public display of nipples. There's no getting around that, Mican. So a mother who exposes her full breast is violating indecency laws, and the common understanding of decency.
    I disagree that it's "common". I'm pretty sure that overall, breastfeeding is more legal than illegal so if are going by the majority, breastfeeding is allowed.

    "All 50 states have passed legislation that either explicitly allows women to breastfeed in public, or exempts them from prosecution for public indecency or indecent exposure for doing so."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breastfeeding_in_public

    I'd be a hypocrite if I were to say that because the states generally allow breastfeeding that it SHOULD be allowed for I have already rejected both the IS/OUGHT and Appeal to Popularity Fallacy. But I will not allow you to portray the legal and moral consensus as being against breastfeeding without support.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    If you want to argue we should make an exception for breastfeeding, you have to explain why it is necessary.
    My argument against the law is that you have not provided any good reason for the law against breastfeeding. Pointing out that the law says this or the law says that only tells us what the law IS. But it does not tell us what the law SHOULD BE.

    So I understand what the law is (in some places anyway) and I understand your OPINION on what the law should be.

    But I have not heard a good reason why the law SHOULD prohibit public breastfeeding. Your personal discomfort is not a valid reason. The law already existing is not a valid reason.

    As far as a reason against such laws goes, I offer two rational.
    1. Liberty. People should be free to do anything they want unless there is a good reason to bar a certain activity.
    2. Feeding babies. All else being equal, it's better for a baby to be fed as soon as it want to be fed. The sooner a baby has its nutritional needs met, the better for the baby.

  6. #26
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But I have not heard a good reason why the law SHOULD prohibit public breastfeeding. Your personal discomfort is not a valid reason. The law already existing is not a valid reason.

    As far as a reason against such laws goes, I offer two rational.
    1. Liberty. People should be free to do anything they want unless there is a good reason to bar a certain activity.
    2. Feeding babies. All else being equal, it's better for a baby to be fed as soon as it want to be fed. The sooner a baby has its nutritional needs met, the better for the baby.
    Laws on indecency must logically be consistent regarding exposure of the breast and nipple. We should either allow all women to go topless, or prohibit public breastfeeding.

    Do you agree? If not, why not?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #27
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Laws on indecency must logically be consistent regarding exposure of the breast and nipple. We should either allow all women to go topless, or prohibit public breastfeeding.

    Do you agree? If not, why not?
    First off, you have ceased to argue FOR laws against public breastfeeding. Maybe I will see an argument for it later. But if not, then I have no need to support my position for the argument that we should have such laws fails for lack of support.

    But I'm interested in responding to your question, so I will respond anyway.

    I gave two reasons.
    1. Liberty. People should be free to do anything they want unless there is a good reason to bar a certain activity.
    2. Feeding babies. All else being equal, it's better for a baby to be fed as soon as it want to be fed. The sooner a baby has its nutritional needs met, the better for the baby.


    The second one clearly does not apply to just being topless in public so I could forward that as the reason for allowing breastfeeding but not general toplessness. But the first one says that one should be allowed to do anything unless there is a good reason to not allow it. So we have to address the issue of whether there is a good reason to outlaw toplessness in general. If not, then we should allow toplessness. And I can't think of a good reason to outlaw it, so I would allow toplessness in general unless someone can bring up a good reason to not allow it.

  8. #28
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I can't think of a good reason to outlaw it, so I would allow toplessness in general unless someone can bring up a good reason to not allow it.
    Sig and Mindtrap, do you agree with Mican that all women should be allowed to go topless? If not, why not?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #29
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Yes, yes, of course there are such laws, but you're missing the point. Exposing the nipple, sans baby, is indecent exposure. From Wikipedia entry on indecent exposure: "in most states of the United States, state law prohibits exposure of the genitals and/or the female nipples in a public place...". Regardless of other special legal statutes, it is a special pleading fallacy to say that exposing the nipple when breast feeding is not indecent exposure.
    Under such logic it is special pleading to say that killing an attacker self defense is murder.

    Indecent exposure has limitations, if you are in a car accident and your breast is exposed that is not indecent exposure. If you are attacked and raped that is not indecent exposure. Nor is it indecent exposure if you tear off a burning shirt or the like. We as rational human beings make rational exceptions and encode them into our laws.

    Personally I think the fear and awe we show to the female nipple is ridiculous and our treatment of nudity childish, but setting that aside, even with our normative standards we make exceptions where there is clearly no sexual display and it is merely a circumstance of life that said nipple breach its normal protective coverings.

    http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/...tate-laws.aspx
    "Forty-five states, the District of Columbia and the Virgin Islands have laws that specifically allow women to breastfeed in any public or private location. "

    In fact the only states where you could possibly be in trouble for breast feeding in public are West Virginia and Idaho. That's it. In the rest of the country its perfectly legal. In a good many states it is a protected right.

    Do not fear the nipples, they will not harm you.
    Last edited by Sigfried; January 23rd, 2014 at 08:49 PM.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  11. #30
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sig and Mindtrap, do you agree with Mican that all women should be allowed to go topless? If not, why not?
    Again, I said I'd allow it unless someone can bring up a good reason to not allow it.

    And in all sincerity, I really wouldn't have a problem with it although it may not be a good idea for other reasons (but that will be up to someone else to provide those reasons).

  12. #31
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Under such law it is special pleading to say that killing an attacker self defense is murder.

    Indecent exposure has limitations, if you are in a car accident and your breast is exposed that is not indecent exposure. If you are attacked and raped that is not indecent exposure. Nor is it indecent exposure if you tear off a burning shirt or the like. We as rational human beings make rational exceptions and encode them into our laws.

    Personally I thin the fear and awe we show to the female nipple is ridiculous and our treatment of nudity childish, but setting that aside, even with our normative standards we make exceptions where there is clearly no sexual display and it is merely a circumstance of life that said nipple breach its normal protective coverings.
    Indecency laws aren't about accidental exposure, but intentional acts. Public breastfeeding is an act done carefully and deliberately, and is not accidental or incidental to some other action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/...tate-laws.aspx
    "Forty-five states, the District of Columbia and the Virgin Islands have laws that specifically allow women to breastfeed in any public or private location. "

    In fact the only states where you could possibly be in trouble for breast feeding in public are West Virginia and Idaho. That's it. In the rest of the country its perfectly legal. In a good many states it is a protected right.
    That it is legal doesn't mean it should be legal, just as if it were illegal wouldn't mean it should be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Do not fear the nipples, they will not harm you.
    So, clarify. Should all women be allowed to go topless as they please?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #32
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sig and Mindtrap, do you agree with Mican that all women should be allowed to go topless? If not, why not?
    Ideally, women should have the choice, but I'm willing to accept that it is sufficiently sexualized in our society that we can have community standards laws that limit nipples in public places or broadcast with reasonable limits.

    If it were up to me I'd say women should be allowed to be topless if they so choose. I don't however think there is a great groundswell of women desiring to go topless in public so its mostly moot.

    ---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Indecency laws aren't about accidental exposure, but intentional acts. Public breastfeeding is an act done carefully and deliberately, and is not accidental or incidental to some other action.
    I agree it is deliberate but it is not deliberate to show you their nipple, that gets covered up quite quickly and most women take pains to expose themselves as little as possible since they value their own modesty. But ultimate the nipple has got to come out so the kid can suck on it. The purpose is to feed the kid not to show of your boobs.

    That it is legal doesn't mean it should be legal, just as if it were illegal wouldn't mean it should be illegal.
    We agree on that but why did you bring up the legality if you want to argue purely about morality rather than legality?

    You have no argument for why its a problem other than your discomfort / distraction. That is not a good reason to prohibit an activity and limit a mothers ability to feed their infant. Under such justification we could outlaw bright colors or not wearing nice perfumes or being fat.

    Until you can show some harm, not based only on your personal sensibilities, you are not really making any kind of rational argument, just whining about it. Which your welcome to do but its just not compelling argument.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  14. #33
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If it were up to me I'd say women should be allowed to be topless if they so choose.
    Okay, then why not allow total nudity? Why can't women, or men for that matter, walk around town completely naked?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #34
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    IF you are arguing that public breastfeeding should be allowed because it is settled that women have historically done so, then that is an appeal to tradition. IF you are arguing that our culture is not advanced enough to accept breastfeeding in public, then arguing that advanced automatically means better is appeal to novelty. But it appears most of your rebuttal was against formula feeding, which I never came close to advocating, so I'm not really sure *what* your points really were.
    My argument isn't any of what you have said your understanding of it is.

    So I will try to re-state the point about historical.

    1) Historical precedent is relevant in regards to what is "normal" activity in a society. In the case of urination, it is historically the case that we have done so in privacy, and so privacy is a reasonable expectation/demand for that activity.
    Breastfeeding is an historically public activity(as well as private) thing, so the expectation to be able to do so is "reasonable" and should be expected to occur. Thus one should not be surprised when one sees breastfeeding occurring in public.

    2) Given the historical precedent, I need not offer a"Breastfeeding should be allowed" argument. The burden is squarely on your shoulders to do that(and you have offered some version of an argument..flaws not withstanding).

    3) Your chagrin at encountering it is "unreasonable", because it is a normal and natural occurrence within our society.


    So, I have simply offered an established fact that breastfeeding in public is a normal occurrence in the public forum. That context is used to establish that you have the burden if you desire to deviate from that norm, and that your feelings are not the norm.
    I believe the point also works hand in hand with what Mican has been pointing out regarding the sexual nature(specifically the lack there of) of breastfeeding. Evidenced again by how our society has historically reacted, and the fact that a real sex act would garner very different public reactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    Accommodate how, exactly?
    By defining and offering a place for the activity where it should reasonably be expected to occur.
    Take urination for example. A mall should expect that to necessarily occur, so bathrooms are offered.
    We should still expect breastfeeding to occur at a mall, and if you wish to push it out of the public forum, then you should offer idea for some accommodation as well. Which you have done, in a very confusing way (namely pointing to a public area.. so that they won't be in YOUR public area).

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    No, it is not, at least not in my town. I read that some seventy percent of mothers breastfeed, but I see it in public only a couple times a year. I'm in an area with lots and lots of young families. If there were a lot of women publicly breastfeeding, I would see them. I don't.
    I mean a normal activity for those that breastfeed. Every woman that I have known to breastfeed has done it in public at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    I suspect people complain a lot more often than you think. Occasionally those complaints make the news, and that suggests there are many more occurrences that happen without anyone but those involved knowing about them.
    I suspect you are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    Which means absolutely nothing.
    Not when we are speaking to "normal" behavior, and if the society should bend to your demands.

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    Appeal to tradition fallacy, but in any event, you're wrong. It is only in the last few decades that it has become generally acceptable.
    Not an appeal to tradition fallacy. Again
    Challenge/support how it is so.

    as to "wrong"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._breastfeeding
    Quote Originally Posted by WIKI LINK
    Historian Rima D. Apple writes in her book Mothers and Medicine. A Social History of Infant Feeding, 1890–1950 that in the United States of America most babies got breastmilk.[13] Dutch historian Van Eekelen researched the small amount of available evidence of breastfeeding practices in The Netherlands. Around 1860 in the Dutch province of Zeeland about 67% of babies were nursed, but there were big differences within the region.[14] Women were obliged to nurse their babies: “Every mother ought to nurse her own child, if she is fit to do it (...) no woman is fit to have a child who is not fit to nurse it.”[15]
    Mother's milk was considered best for babies, but the quality of the breastmilk was found to be varied. The quality of breastmilk was considered good only if the mother had a good diet, had physical exercise and was mentally in balance.[16] In Europe (especially in France) and less in the USA it was a practice among the higher and middle class to hire a wet nurse. If it was too difficult to find a wet nurse, people used formula to feed their babies, but this was considered very dangerous for the health and life of the baby.[17]
    Quote Originally Posted by WIKI LINK
    Breastfeeding in the Western world declined significantily from the late 1800s to the 1960s.[18] By the 1950s, the predominant attitude to breastfeeding was that is was something practiced by the uneducated and those of lower classes. The practice was consider old-fashion and "a little disgusting" for those who could not afford infant formula and discouraged by medical practitioners and media of the time.[19] Letters and editorials to Chatelaine from 1945 to as late as 1995 regarding breastfeeding were predominately negative.[19] However, since the middle 1960s there has been a steady resurgence in the practice of breastfeeding in Canada and the US, especially among more educated, affluent women.[19]
    So, no I am not wrong. A decline that takes 180 years should be considered extremely gradual, and certainly not enough to be a valid challenge to the historical precedent that I appeal to.

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    Because newer statutes aside, it is indecent exposure.
    No indecent exposure law is read that way and all have made accommodations for breastfeeding to be specifically excluded.
    So, as a legal sense you are absolulty wrong.
    As to your opinion... well, it's yours. I think you need more than that to convince others to share that feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    The corner lounge areas were empty. Such areas are exactly what some people advocate that businesses provide to nursing mothers, because they are semi-private, away from other people, but without pushing the mother and child into a back hall or bathroom. If I were heading to the lounge and saw a mother breastfeeding, I could choose to continue or turn away. I would not be offended. But once I'm sitting in the theater, to have her come in and expose herself is completely different. Do you really not see the difference?
    So, are you saying that if you were headed to the lounge you would have "moved away",but in a theater you would refuse to do that?
    Further, I don't really understand your argument, other than it appears to be a "not around me" argument. You don't seem to be arguing against public breastfeeding(with this point quoted, but your main complaint is about public breastfeeding.

    So, no I don't see the distinction you are making between the main lobby/lounge (they are all built different, and ours has no simi privateness to it) and the DARK theater with a movie running. I would think the latter to be much more private.. hence all the teen age "make out" sessions IN the theater vs in the lobby.


    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    An empty or remote lounge allows privacy for the mother, and distance for people who don't want to be subjected to the indecency. Isn't that the kind of accommodation you are wanting businesses to provide? If not, then what is it you expect? Where is the logic to her being allowed to sit in front of a bunch of other people and expose her entire breast?
    So we should expect lounges in a public and sometimes crowded theater to be empty? I'm just not going to buy that reasoning. A public place being empty at a given time is hardly what we should define an area as.. what if it was premier night and the theater was packed with a line around the door? Our theater is wall to wall(and it is big). In that case you would be arguing that she wait till she was in a dark and uncrowded theater, vs the packed lobby/lounge area.
    That is why there is no logic or reason to what you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    If it were up to me I'd say women should be allowed to be topless if they so choose.
    If ever a response required a song... this is one.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh2PjkzW20w
    To serve man.

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  17. #35
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    MT, I get that you're all for breastfeeding and all against formula. But you're conflating the history of attitudes towards public breastfeeding with breastfeeding practices generally, with the passages you quoted. The fact that many women have breastfed historically in this country does not mean they did it publicly in front of men. If you have proof they did, present it. I think you'll find that attitudes toward public acts of breastfeeding have only begun turning positive in the past few decades. So if historical norms are important to the discussion, they support my side of the argument, not yours.

    The idea that businesses should create special breastfeeding rooms is exactly opposite of what breastfeeding activists want. They want to be able to breastfeed anywhere, any time, and current laws allow that. If women don't want special rooms, why should businesses go to the expense of creating them?

    Humor aside, do you believe women should be allowed to go topless anytime and anywhere?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    MT, I get that you're all for breastfeeding and all against formula. But you're conflating the history of attitudes towards public breastfeeding with breastfeeding practices generally with the passages you quoted. The fact that many women have breastfed historically in this country does not mean they did it publicly in front of men. Attitudes toward public acts of breastfeeding have only begun turning positive in the past few decades. So if historical norms are important to the discussion, they support my side of the argument, not yours.
    Your point is taken, but we should have a reason to expect the separation, we should not assume such a separation. Given the nature of breastfeeding, it should be assumed to be public especially the further back in history you go. I'm not certain of the history of breast pumps and bottles or storage of breast milk. I certainly don't see how we can assume anything other than public breastfeeding before refrigeration.

    We have good reason to assume public breastfeeding where it is not specifically mentioned or enumerated in the culture (so that a culture that allows breastfeeding, should be assumed to allow it in public) because the feeding of children is not set to any kind of schedule. The further back the hard it becomes to accommodate that schedule (such as travel), refrigeration, etc.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2684040/
    This link doesn't even mention the public/private aspect of it while being pretty detailed about the history of breastfeeding as well as the evolution of alternatives.

    *Edit*
    Quote Originally Posted by EVEN
    Humor aside, do you believe women should be allowed to go topless anytime and anywhere?
    First, I'm glad you saw the humor
    Honestly, I am personally torn.

    Religiously the answer is easy, NO, woman ought not go topless.
    Legally, I do not necessarily see clearly what the roll of gov ought to be in regards to public nudity. I can see the sexual argument, but the law already distinguishes between sexual nudity, and normal nudity.

    Currently in regards to breastfeeding I do not see it as sexual in any sense, and the temporary flashing of a nipple during the act doesn't push it over the line. As to it's expressible difference from normal toplessness.. I have to say it is much like the difference of artistic nudity and pornographic nudity.. I know it when I see it

    Natural acts that involve a baby are a category all their own. Such that on public nudity we could agree(
    sake of argument) should be expressly forbidden, but if someone changed their child in a store exposing their bottoms... I would not count that in that forbidding, nor would I think that a reasonable understanding of the law.
    To serve man.

  20. #37
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    We have good reason to assume public breastfeeding where it is not specifically mentioned or enumerated in the culture (so that a culture that allows breastfeeding, should be assumed to allow it in public) because the feeding of children is not set to any kind of schedule. The further back the hard it becomes to accommodate that schedule (such as travel), refrigeration, etc.
    Read the first couple paragraphs of this article from 1995, less than twenty years ago, and you'll see the author only dreamed of a day when public breastfeeding would be considered normal. It was not then.
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  21. #38
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, then why not allow total nudity? Why can't women, or men for that matter, walk around town completely naked?
    1. Sanitary reasons. I suppose if you had a towel you took everywhere you could mitigate that but honestly its not likely. It could indeed be something of a public health hazard as your ass and a woman's vagina are more likely to secrete bodily fluids than most other parts of the body that regularly come into contact with surfaces. Now if we sat on our faces fairly often that would be less an issue since our mouths and noses likewise are kind of leaky.

    2. The penis and Vagina in addition to other functions are indeed our primary sex organs so they are more overtly sexual than nipples which are secondary sex organs. Of course all nudity need not be sexualized but they certainly are.

    3. For men clothing hides erections effectively which is a direct sexual display, no clothes, boners are there for all to see, probably not a good thing.

    4 Primarily: As I said I'm OK with certain standards of public politeness, even to an extent if we have laws governing it, especially more local laws. While I think its a bit unfair to allow male nipples and not female nipples its not a law I take a lot of issue with, more philosophical than practical. Breastfeeding is different because its a basic human function that is necessary and is harmless. While there is a direct need for breastfeeding, there is no direct need for simple nakedness.

    If folks went naked, I wouldn't mind, I'd probably get used to it pretty quickly. I doubt very much that the vast majority are much interested in doing so. Even nudists tend to like to have a save environment to go buff in. On the other hand there is a clear social need and call for being able to breast feed in public.
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If folks went naked, I wouldn't mind, I'd probably get used to it pretty quickly.
    Okay, I see. Should sexual acts such as intercourse and sodomy be allowed in public? If not, why not?
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    Re: Breastfeeding in Public

    From what I gather, your primary objection to the woman breastfeeding is that she exposed her breast to public view prior to, during, and after breastfeeding. Is this true?

    If so, would your sensibilities have been assuaged by her strategic use of a nursing blanket, or does the mere thought of a woman breastfeeding bother you too much to allow that?


    With that question out of the way, I have a few problems with your argument thus far:

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sig and Mindtrap, do you agree with Mican that all women should be allowed to go topless? If not, why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Okay, then why not allow total nudity? Why can't women, or men for that matter, walk around town completely naked?
    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, I see. Should sexual acts such as intercourse and sodomy be allowed in public? If not, why not?
    The structure of this argument fits with a slippery slope fallacy. It is actually quite legal in many places - including the streets of New York City - for a woman to walk around without a shirt or bra on, with breasts fully exposed. The law makes no distinction in this case between a man, who is almost universally allowed to walk around without a shirt, and a woman. I see no problem with this, because it's a matter of "equal protection under the law." If men can walk around without coverings on the upper half of their bodies legally, then so can women. No problem. The only substantive objections I've seen you present to breastfeeding - and the consequent exposure of breasts - is a matter of personal taste. You personally find it offensive, and so it should be illegal. I don't find that this argument holds much water, honestly.

    There are several reasons that letting women walk around without shirts or bras on is not equivalent to allowing both men and women to walk around naked or, as you fallaciously advanced the scenario, to engaging in public sex acts:
    1) It is illegal for ANYONE, male or female, to walk around in public with their genitalia exposed. This is consistent with the "equal protection" clause, because it applies equally to everyone. An asymmetric law that allows men to walk around topless but which forces women to adhere to some other arbitrary standard that dictates that they must cover their upper body is unjust because it places legal constraints upon women that do not exist on men and thus, violates the equal protection clause.

    2) There is nothing inherently culturally obscene or even explicitly sexual in the exposure or viewing of a person's breasts. Any implied sexual connotations of the breasts are a cultural norm that not all people in this society share and which an increasingly large number of people reject. Some people (including me, for awhile) may be aroused, but I get plenty aroused looking at a thong-clad woman's well-rounded (and quite uncovered) bottom, too. Nobody's seriously putting forward the idea that we should have arbitrarily enforced modesty laws preventing the wearing of thongs, are we? If you object to a woman's ability to breast feed in public, do you support other modesty laws? Should we restore some form of modesty police to make sure that women are not allowed to dress too immodestly? Who gets to decide what standards of modesty are applied, and on what grounds are those decisions made?

    3) In contrast, there *is* something inherently sexual about exposing one's genitals in public, and this is not purely cultural. The exposure of a person's genitals - especially males - presents a definite, unequivocal sexual sign to anyone passing by if that person happens to be aroused. It forces people to interact with a person's sexuality in a very direct and public way, and so causes a much greater degree of disruption to the public sphere. The argument can be made that no such overt sexual sign exists in a woman, but then you run into the same issue of equal protection as before.

    4) The actual performance of explicit sex acts in public is so far beyond the scope of the issue that I'm only addressing it because you brought it up as part of your fallacious slippery slope argument. While there may be some play at the margins for allowing public nudity to get a pass on being explicitly sexual, there is definitely no such liberty for the actual performance of such actions. Allowing such things to be performed in public forces the entire public sphere who happens to witness the actions to interact with at least one person's sexuality in a real, unavoidable, public, and uncomfortable way and would cause a great deal of disruption to the public. I honestly can't see how you can make an equivalency between this and the simple, brief exposure of a woman's breast for the specific purpose of breastfeeding a child.


    All that said, I think that the mother was being extremely inconsiderate in bringing a newborn infant into a movie theater and that she should have found someone to watch the child rather than subject everyone else who paid for the movie to her child's crying. I object to that, but I do not object to her having breastfed her child in public. To be perfectly honest, the person in the situation with whom I find the most fault is you, because you projected your own prejudices and sexual thoughts and feelings onto someone who was engaged in an action which is anything but sexual.
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