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  1. #21
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I recognize that a fetus begins to grow. I will assume that that is what you mean unless you inform me otherwise. If that is not what you mean, then you need to be more specific in what you mean by "A process".
    You were closer before when you read my argument as a reference to the entire life cycle.
    I'm not concerned about the "life" aspect of the issue at all here though, thus my attempt to reword.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Does the woman opt out of letting the fetus grow further? Yes.
    But that isn't all, and there is no reason to restrict it to simply that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Correct. The fetus in growing inside of her and not inside of him and he cannot force her to terminate the fetus' growth.
    Why is terminating the fetus growth necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    That statement assumes that there is an obligation to let the fetus continue growing in the first place. It has not been established that such an obligation exists.
    Not at all. You are limiting your reading of it to only obligations that could exist while in the woman. That is by no means the only obligations being terminated or "opted out" of.


    O.k. .. let me .. and bare with me now.. let me try an analogy to try and avoid the "life of a child inside the womb" aspect that can be tangled into this, and thus confuse my point.


    Suppose you and I are neighbors.
    I have a bag of nuts, and you invite me over to your house so you can see them.
    While I am there one, very much by accident, falls onto your yard.
    You are a very special land owner though, and you have a system that lets you know when anything is growing in your yard, and you know that the nut is now beginning to sprout and will eventually come out of the ground as a tree.
    Now, you have the option to get a shovel in order to avoid all obligations and responsibilities that come with having a tree. (or you could just do it because you don't want your yard to be disfigured by a tree).
    I however have no such option, if I were to dig it up the police would take me away. However when it does become a tree, I am to be held as equally responsible for when the limb crushes my fence.

    Now...
    If you allow it to grow, why can't I tell you that I am not going to be held responsible for pruning/pest control etc (while it is still in the ground.. because you were really cool and let me know). How is that not enough or sufficient to stop me from being held legally responsible for when the tree branch crushes my fence, or when you get a pest control bill in?

    Allegory Key
    Nut = Donated DNA
    Ground/Yard = Woman body
    Limb crushing fence/pest bill = responsibilities of parents to children.
    To serve man.

  2. #22
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You were closer before when you read my argument as a reference to the entire life cycle.
    I'm not concerned about the "life" aspect of the issue at all here though, thus my attempt to reword.
    Then I will alter the first definition as best as I understand what you mean. So we get.

    The woman is opting out of her responsibility to let the product continue its life cycle to the cycle's natural end. The man cannot choose to deny his responsibility to let the product continue its life cycle to the cycle's natural end.

    Now, I understand that. If it's not right, then alter it as little as you possible can to make it correct.

    But please don't just replace it with vague terminology that I have to guess at.


    As as your analogy goes, let me address the Allegory key first.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Allegory Key
    Nut = Donated DNA
    Ground/Yard = Woman body
    Limb crushing fence/pest bill = responsibilities of parents to children.
    There's one additional item for the Allegory Key.


    Tree = Child

    I assume we agree that both parents, in general, have an equal responsibility to ensure the child stays alive and healthy (because I assume that your ultimate point is not that Fathers actually do not have a responsibility to their children but that allowing abortion is unfair to the men).

    So I disagree with


    Limb crushing fence/pest bill = responsibilities of parents to children.

    And would replace it with


    Ensuring the tree lives = responsibilities of parents to children.

    So we have:



    Allegory Key
    Nut = Donated DNA
    Ground/Yard = Woman body
    Tree = child
    Ensuring the tree lives = responsibilities of parents to children.

    So back to your analogy. And I will alter it a bit given the corrected analogy key (with the corrections underlined)

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Suppose you and I are neighbors.
    I have a bag of nuts, and you invite me over to your house so you can see them.
    While I am there one, very much by accident, falls onto your yard.
    You are a very special land owner though, and you have a system that lets you know when anything is growing in your yard, and you know that the nut is now beginning to sprout and will eventually come out of the ground as a tree.
    Now, you have the option to get a shovel in order to avoid all obligations and responsibilities that come with having a tree. (or you could just do it because you don't want your yard to be disfigured by a tree).
    I however have no such option, if I were to dig it up the police would take me away. However when it does become a tree, I am to be held as equally responsible for allowing the tree to die/suffer due to my neglect of the tree.

    Now...
    If you allow it to grow, why can't I tell you that I am not going to be held responsible for pruning/pest control etc (while it is still in the ground.. because you were really cool and let me know). How is that not enough or sufficient to stop me from being held legally responsible for ignoring my responsibility in caring for the tree?
    Because you have a responsibility to the tree that cannot be ignored just because you didn't have the option of digging up the nut while it was growing.
    Last edited by mican333; January 28th, 2014 at 06:53 AM.

  3. #23
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    The woman is opting out of her responsibility to let the product continue its life cycle to the cycle's natural end. The man cannot choose to deny his responsibility to let the product continue its life cycle to the cycle's natural end.
    I'm not trying to speak to a responsibility to allow the life cycle to continue.
    More the responsibility that comes as a consequence of the life cycle continuing.
    Here, I am assuming that the woman has no obligation to the life cycle continuing, and thus she can have an abortion.

    The effect of that ,however, is that she is terminating her future obligations to a child.
    It is this second aspect which is my focus.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    There's one additional item for the Allegory Key.


    Tree = Child
    Yes. and germinating nut in the ground is fetus.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I assume we agree that both parents, in general, have an equal responsibility to ensure the child stays alive and healthy (because I assume that your ultimate point is not that Fathers actually do not have a responsibility to their children but that allowing abortion is unfair to the men).
    No, I am disagreeing with the first point.
    Or, more I'm drawing attention to the inequality afforded men to opt out of said responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So I disagree with


    Limb crushing fence/pest bill = responsibilities of parents to children.

    And would replace it with


    Ensuring the tree lives = responsibilities of parents to children.
    I don't see a relevant distinction of the two.
    The limb example was intended to draw attention to the specific are or concept that I wanted to examine,
    by offering an instance people could relate to. You can relate to having someone elses tree limb fall on your fence (I have had it happen twice).

    However, I have no idea how our current laws would require you to maintain a tree on someone elses property.
    The point of the allegory is not to simply change the names, but to apply the context to another situation to reveal a conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Because you have a responsibility to the tree that cannot be ignored just because you didn't have the option of digging up the nut while it was growing.
    Why not?

    This seems to be an "Is/Ought" fallacy.

    Simply because we do hold men responsible and do not afford them the ability to "Opt out", doesn't mean that it ought to be the case.

    Here if you value equality, then men should be afforded the opportunity as well as woman. Especially in the case of non-consent.
    To serve man.

  4. #24
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I'm not trying to speak to a responsibility to allow the life cycle to continue.
    More the responsibility that comes as a consequence of the life cycle continuing.
    Here, I am assuming that the woman has no obligation to the life cycle continuing, and thus she can have an abortion.

    The effect of that ,however, is that she is terminating her future obligations to a child.
    It is this second aspect which is my focus.
    So at one point she has no obligation and later on she has an obligation so there are two different stages.

    There's a stage where she has no obligation and can terminate the cycle/product/process and there's another stage where she does have an obligation and she cannot terminate. Right?


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, I am disagreeing with the first point.
    Or, more I'm drawing attention to the inequality afforded men to opt out of said responsibility.
    So you aren't actually saying that a man has no responsibility to his children. You are saying that it's unfair to not allow the man to decide whether the child is born if he's going to be responsible for it.

    So it's not an argument against parental responsibility but an argument against not allowing the man a voice in the decision on whether to abort or not.

    So I assume you do agree that parents, including the male parent, have a responsibility to their children?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't see a relevant distinction of the two.
    The limb example was intended to draw attention to the specific are or concept that I wanted to examine,
    by offering an instance people could relate to. You can relate to having someone elses tree limb fall on your fence (I have had it happen twice).

    However, I have no idea how our current laws would require you to maintain a tree on someone elses property.
    And therefore your analogy is probably flawed. Because a child is not "on someone else' property" nor is a child even property. A child is a unique being with its own sets of rights and recognition of those rights give his/her parents a legal obligation to that child. If the fact that a tree has no such rights scuttles the analogy, then the analogy does not work.

    So either we have to adjust your analogy to assume the tree has the same rights as a child or we must abandon the analogy as being too flawed to work.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The point of the allegory is not to simply change the names, but to apply the context to another situation to reveal a conflict.
    But one of the most pertinent aspects of the conflicts is the inherent rights of the child.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Why not?

    This seems to be an "Is/Ought" fallacy.

    Simply because we do hold men responsible and do not afford them the ability to "Opt out", doesn't mean that it ought to be the case.

    Here if you value equality, then men should be afforded the opportunity as well as woman. Especially in the case of non-consent.
    But what exactly are they "opting out of"?

    Once again, you are using vague terminology.
    Last edited by mican333; January 28th, 2014 at 08:27 AM.

  5. #25
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    PLEASE re-state my sentence in a fashion that correctly relays what you mean.
    The woman is opting out of obligating herself to the responsiblities of a child.
    The man cannot opt out of being obligated to the responsibilites of a child.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So you aren't actually saying that a man has no responsibility to his children. You are saying that it's unfair to not allow the man to decide whether the child is born if he's going to be responsible for it.

    So it's not an argument against parental responsibility but an argument against not allowing the man a voice in the decision on whether to abort or not.

    So I assume you do agree that parents, including the male parent, have a responsibility to their children?
    I am saying that it is wrong to hold a man responsible for something which he does not consent, while affording him no way to correct the situation.
    A woman must consent in order to have a child because she has to allow it to remain. She basically has a choice.
    This is not about a man being given a voice in an abortion, only to what extent he is responsible in relation to something he did not consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And therefore your analogy is probably flawed. Because a child is not "on someone else' property" nor is a child even property. A child is a unique being with its own sets of rights and recognition of those rights give his/her parents a legal obligation to that child. If the fact that a tree has no such rights scuttles the analogy, then the analogy does not work.
    It isn't a perfect analogy, but because we are not examining the rights of children here, there is no reason to say the analogy is flawed in communicating or examining the issue I am bringing up.

    The analogy is to communicate to you what I am trying to point out. If you are more interested in defining the analogy then you will not get the point of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But what exactly are they "opting out of"?

    Once again, you are using vague terminology.
    Not at all. I have specified and clarified, I even gave an analogy to illustrate and target the idea I'm communicating.
    Are you more interested in re-defining your ideas into my analogy, or discerning my ideas out of the analogy?
    because you have specifically defined out my ideas from my own analogy..i'm disinclined to think I am failing to articulate the idea. Go back to the analogy and evaluate it not for it's ability to perfectly mirror a pregnancy and birth, but for the ideas the parts represent as I am trying to lay them out.

    If that doesn't work.. then I'll try something else.
    To serve man.

  6. #26
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The woman is opting out of obligating herself to the responsiblities of a child.
    The man cannot opt out of being obligated to the responsibilites of a child.
    But what do you mean by "child"? Are we talking about a "born child", an "unborn child" or "a child who is either born or unborn"?

    It's a pertinent difference because if we are talking about an "unborn child", then from the pro-choice perspective no such obligation even exists so she's not opting out of an obligation that she actually has and the man has no obligation to it either.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I am saying that it is wrong to hold a man responsible for something which he does not consent, while affording him no way to correct the situation.
    A woman must consent in order to have a child because she has to allow it to remain. She basically has a choice.
    This is not about a man being given a voice in an abortion, only to what extent he is responsible in relation to something he did not consent.
    He consented to have sex and he created a child. Assuming he is to be held responsible for his consensual actions, he has a responsibility to the child he conceived.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It isn't a perfect analogy, but because we are not examining the rights of children here, there is no reason to say the analogy is flawed in communicating or examining the issue I am bringing up.

    The analogy is to communicate to you what I am trying to point out. If you are more interested in defining the analogy then you will not get the point of it.
    I get the point of the analogy but it does not succeed in making the argument that the man should be able to get out of his responsibility to his child for it ignores the very pertinent issue that a man has a responsibility to his child.

  7. #27
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Its not necessary, but it may be a wise thing to do if a pregnancy is not wanted.
    Whether it is wise or not is irrelevant to whether or not it is consent. That was the point I was making. If a woman consents to sex, part of that consent concerns whether or not he is wearing a condom.

    Lets say she decided not to take her birth control prior to sexual activity. Does that mean that the male did not consent to the possibility of her getting pregnant?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  8. #28
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But what do you mean by "child"? Are we talking about a "born child", an "unborn child" or "a child who is either born or unborn"?

    It's a pertinent difference because if we are talking about an "unborn child", then from the pro-choice perspective no such obligation even exists so she's not opting out of an obligation that she actually has and the man has no obligation to it either.
    I noted the difference between the unborn and the born, when I noted that the seed is a fetus and the tree is a child.

    Here I am referring to her opting out of a future obligation, just as the man has that same future obligation.
    I noted that when I pointed to the motivation of those who abort the unborn as being "I don't want a child right now". They are not referring to the unborn, but the born. They are allowed to opt out, and that option takes the form of an abortion. I am not arguing for the same form,but the same opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    He consented to have sex and he created a child. Assuming he is to be held responsible for his consensual actions, he has a responsibility to the child he conceived.
    No, the woman created the child. You have already noted that the unborn doesn't not occur in the man, but the woman.


    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I get the point of the analogy but it does not succeed in making the argument that the man should be able to get out of his responsibility to his child for it ignores the very pertinent issue that a man has a responsibility to his child.
    Well, here the woman is afforded a time and a means to opt out of that responsibility. .. the man is not.
    Certainly a man is held responsible for children that share his DNA when it is born, but there is no reason for him to be denied the ability to opt out, even if it is just to say "you want the child you can have it as I am giving up all claim and responsibility".
    To serve man.

  9. #29
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Here I am referring to her opting out of a future obligation, just as the man has that same future obligation.
    I disagree with the term "future obligation" for that posits that the obligation WILL exist in the future. Since an abortion will eliminate that which one would have an obligation to, there will be no obligation in the future and therefore no future obligation. The future obligation can only exist if she has the baby.

    I think "Potential Obligation" is a better term when referencing the future for it allows for the possibility that the child will be born and it allows for the possibility that it will not be born.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I noted that when I pointed to the motivation of those who abort the unborn as being "I don't want a child right now". They are not referring to the unborn, but the born. They are allowed to opt out, and that option takes the form of an abortion. I am not arguing for the same form,but the same opportunity.
    But if there is no born child there will be no obligation to a born child. So they have the same responsibility regardless of whether the child is born or not. If it's not born, they have no responsibility to it. If the child is born, they have equal responsibility to it.

    So either way, their responsibility is equal.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No, the woman created the child. You have already noted that the unborn doesn't not occur in the man, but the woman.
    But I don't define "creation" soley as the act of carrying the child. If the child cannot exist without one's effort, then that effort contributes to the creation of the child.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, here the woman is afforded a time and a means to opt out of that responsibility. .. the man is not.
    So what? I don't see a problem with the man not being given the opportunity to gain the responsibility that she opted to not attain. Again, opting out of a potential responsibility means that no actual responsibility ever existed or will exist. If it ever exists, it becomes an actual responsibility, not a potential responsibility.

    Does he have a right to attain that responsibility? I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Certainly a man is held responsible for children that share his DNA when it is born, but there is no reason for him to be denied the ability to opt out, even if it is just to say "you want the child you can have it as I am giving up all claim and responsibility".
    Yes there is. The man is responsible for this children and just saying "I don't want to be responsible to them" does not change that.
    Denying one's responsibility does not remove the responsibility.

  10. #30
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    I disagree with the term "future obligation" for that posits that the obligation WILL exist in the future. Since an abortion will eliminate that which one would have an obligation to, there will be no obligation in the future and therefore no future obligation. The future obligation can only exist if she has the baby.

    I think "Potential Obligation" is a better term when referencing the future for it allows for the possibility that the child will be born and it allows for the possibility that it will not be born.
    It is certain that IF the child is born then a future obligation is in effect.
    It is that future obligatoin that the woman is specifically trying to avoid.
    the only "potential" aspect is that of unforseen death (in or out of womb).

    The "potential" is only to the extent that the unborn is a "potential child/person".

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But if there is no born child there will be no obligation to a born child. So they have the same responsibility regardless of whether the child is born or not. If it's not born, they have no responsibility to it. If the child is born, they have equal responsibility to it.

    So either way, their responsibility is equal.
    Certainly, but their ability to opt out is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    But I don't define "creation" soley as the act of carrying the child. If the child cannot exist without one's effort, then that effort contributes to the creation of the child.
    Here I am using the assumptoin that the unborn is part of the woman's body. (hence her ability to abort).
    This as opposed to the alternative that the unborn is a child, but also an invader. (hence her ability to abort).

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So what? I don't see a problem with the man not being given the opportunity to gain the responsibility that she opted to not attain. Again, opting out of a potential responsibility means that no actual responsibility ever existed or will exist. If it ever exists, it becomes an actual responsibility, not a potential responsibility.

    Does he have a right to attain that responsibility? I don't think so.
    What do you mean "right to attain that responsibility"? I'm speaking to his right to avoid it. You seem to be speaking to something else...

    you do realize that I'm not taking up my traditional position right?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Yes there is. The man is responsible for this children and just saying "I don't want to be responsible to them" does not change that.
    Denying one's responsibility does not remove the responsibility.
    That is the is/ought fallacy.
    I say, there is no reason that he should not be allowed to opt out.

    You say, the man is responsible and denying it doesn't change it.

    That is the case as we hold him responsible now, but we could just as easily accept his proclamation, and then the burden would be on the woman.

    As it is I can declare my way out of certain responsibilities.
    Such as, if you wanted to go to war, and I declare that I will have no part of it, then even as you use my land for your war effort.. i am hardly responsible for your actions.
    To serve man.

  11. #31
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It is certain that IF the child is born then a future obligation is in effect.
    But before it is born, it is not certain that it will be born so it has the potential to be born and therefore the obligation is a potential obligation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    It is that future obligatoin that the woman is specifically trying to avoid.
    the only "potential" aspect is that of unforseen death (in or out of womb).

    The "potential" is only to the extent that the unborn is a "potential child/person".
    And the potential person has a potential obligation to it.

    A person who exists has an obligation to it.
    A person who does not exist has no obligation to it.
    A person who potentially exists has a potential obligation to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Certainly, but their ability to opt out is not.
    They have an equal opportunity to opt our their responsibility regarding the child. Remember that from the pro-choice perspective there is no responsibility for the child until it is born. So the only way to opt out of one's responsibility to the child is to abandon it after it is born. And they both have the option of opting out of their responsibility to the born child by such means as neglecting it, abandoning it, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Here I am using the assumptoin that the unborn is part of the woman's body. (hence her ability to abort).
    This as opposed to the alternative that the unborn is a child, but also an invader. (hence her ability to abort).
    I don't understand how that counters my assertion that the man helped create the child.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What do you mean "right to attain that responsibility"? I'm speaking to his right to avoid it. You seem to be speaking to something else...
    Avoiding a responsibility infers that a responsibility exists and you are avoiding it (like it's your responsibility to take out the garbage but you decide to avoid doing it). But if there is no responsibility to do something in the first place, there is nothing to avoid.



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That is the is/ought fallacy.
    I say, there is no reason that he should not be allowed to opt out.

    You say, the man is responsible and denying it doesn't change it.

    That is the case as we hold him responsible now, but we could just as easily accept his proclamation, and then the burden would be on the woman.
    We can accept his claim but I don't accept it. I am operating with the premise that a man is responsible for his children. If you want to reject it, you can but then you don't need to mount any kind of argument to do this. You can just say "I hold a different moral opinion about whether a man has a responsibility to his children than you do and therefore I reject your premise that he does" and that pretty much ends the debate for I can't support that your opinion is wrong. And the debate is over.

    So I'm afraid that you do need to accept the premise that a man has a responsibility to his children if we are to continue the debate. Otherwise we will have to agree to disagree on this issue and end this.

    But then we are debating the pro-choice position which typically holds that one does have a responsibility to his children and I believe that you are attempting to show an inconsistency in the position so you can accept the premise and yet question it from your interpretation of the pro-choice perspective.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    As it is I can declare my way out of certain responsibilities.
    Such as, if you wanted to go to war, and I declare that I will have no part of it, then even as you use my land for your war effort.. i am hardly responsible for your actions.
    True. But for those who hold that you do have a responsibility to fight for your country, you would be avoiding a responsibility. And if you felt that you did not have a responsibility to go to war then from your perspective you would not be avoiding a responsibility since you never had the responsibility.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    I will try to clarify the issue with stories. Since we are discussing the pro-choice position, I will start off with some accepted premises that they typically hold

    1. Neither parent has a responsibility to the unborn
    2. Both parents have a responsibility to the born

    And I'll present two stories - one of birth and one of abortion. First the birth story.

    1. Al gets Sue pregnant.
    2. While she is pregnant, neither of them have a responsibility to the child
    3. Sue gives birth and at that moment, they both have a responsibility to the child.

    So in that situation, they had an equal responsibility to the child at all times.

    Now the abortion story.

    1. Bob gets Amy pregnant.
    2. While Amy is pregnant, neither of them have a responsibility to the child
    3. Amy has an abortion and therefore there will never be a child for them to have a responsibility for
    4. So at no point in the process did either of them attain a responsibility for the child.

    So they likewise had an equal responsibility at all times.

    So whatever inequality Al and Bob suffered, it was never due to them having a responsibility that the women didn't have.
    Last edited by mican333; January 28th, 2014 at 12:09 PM.

  12. #32
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    They have an equal opportunity to opt our their responsibility regarding the child. Remember that from the pro-choice perspective there is no responsibility for the child until it is born. So the only way to opt out of one's responsibility to the child is to abandon it after it is born. And they both have the option of opting out of their responsibility to the born child by such means as neglecting it, abandoning it, etc.
    Well, if you are accepting that as O.K. then we are in agreement here.

    Remember the OP was attacking that action. .. if your not defending it, then there isn't any need for me to respond further.
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, if you are accepting that as O.K. then we are in agreement here.
    Just because I'm saying that one can opt out of his his/her obligation to his/her child after it is born does not mean that I think it's okay if they do that.

    So no, I don't think it's okay if they do it. I'm just saying they have the same opportunity to do it.



    My position is that at no time is does one person assume a unique responsibility that the other person does not have. I will re-post what I put in my last post in support.

    Since we are discussing the pro-choice position, I will start off with some accepted premises that they typically hold

    1. Neither parent has a responsibility to the unborn
    2. Both parents have a responsibility to the born

    And I'll present two stories - one of birth and one of abortion. First the birth story.

    1. Al gets Sue pregnant.
    2. While she is pregnant, neither of them have a responsibility to the child
    3. Sue gives birth and at that moment, they both have a responsibility to the child.

    So in that situation, they had an equal responsibility to the child at all times.

    Now the abortion story.

    1. Bob gets Amy pregnant.
    2. While Amy is pregnant, neither of them have a responsibility to the child
    3. Amy has an abortion and therefore there will never be a child for them to have a responsibility for
    4. So at no point in the process did either of them attain a responsibility for the child.

    So they likewise had an equal responsibility at all times.

    So whatever inequality Al and Bob suffered, it was never due to them having a responsibility that the women didn't have.
    Last edited by mican333; January 28th, 2014 at 12:41 PM.

  14. #34
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    My position is that at no time is does one person assume a unique responsibility that the other person does not have. I will re-post what I put in my last post in support.
    And I didn't argue that a unique responsibility existed.
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    And I didn't argue that a unique responsibility existed.
    So then you agree that neither the man or the woman bear a responsibility that the other one does not in regard to abortion and child-raising?

    And I likewise hold that neither of them have a greater ability to opt out of their responsibility than the other one does.

  16. #36
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    So then you agree that neither the man or the woman bear a responsibility that the other one does not in regard to abortion and child-raising?
    sure

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And I likewise hold that neither of them have a greater ability to opt out of their responsibility than the other one does.
    Well as you are accepting abandonment as a valid means of achieving that end for the man.. then yes.
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well as you are accepting abandonment as a valid means of achieving that end for the man.. then yes.
    When I say he "can" opt out of his responsibilities I mean he is capable of doing it, not that it's alright if he does it.

    I hold that a man has both a moral and legal obligation to the children he sires and if he abandons his child he is opting out of his obligation to his child and is not only morally wrong but is, and should be, subject to legal penalties.

    But given that, he's still capable of running out on his kid so he can still opt out of his obligation, no matter how wrong or illegal it may be to do so.
    Last edited by mican333; January 28th, 2014 at 05:42 PM.

  18. #38
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    When I say he "can" opt out of his responsibilities I mean he is capable of doing it, not that it's alright if he does it.

    I hold that a man has both a moral and legal obligation to the children he sires and if he abandons his child he is opting out of his obligation to his child and is not only morally wrong but is, and should be, subject to legal penalties.

    But given that, he's still capable of running out on his kid so he can still opt out of his obligation, no matter how wrong or illegal it may be to do so.
    Well he ought to be able to if the woman can.
    If it is the time before the child is born that is the limit here for you, then he should be afforded the opportunity to cut ties then. Just as the woman is able to cut her ties. Though his will be more figurative.
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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well he ought to be able to if the woman can.
    But she can't, at least not without violating the same obligation that the man has.

    So they have the ability to opt out their obligation and the same penalty if they do opt out of their obligation.

    And in case I need to clarify, I'm talking about their obligation to their born children.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If it is the time before the child is born that is the limit here for you, then he should be afforded the opportunity to cut ties then. Just as the woman is able to cut her ties. Though his will be more figurative.
    But we are discussing whether the father has an obligation to the born child so that is obligation I am referring to. And I don't see how you can cut the ties to the born child before it is born. Prior to birth there is no born child so one cannot cut ties to the born child at that time. And after the child is born it is too late to cut ties to the child before it is born.

    I know your are probably referring to cutting ties to something other than the obligation to the born child so you will probably need to specify what you are referring to.
    Last edited by mican333; January 28th, 2014 at 08:35 PM.

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    Re: when a woman is pregnant. what to do?

    @ mican...

    Looking for a bit of clarification here. Back in Post #63, you had this to say:

    Quote Originally Posted by mican
    My position is that at no time is does one person assume a unique responsibility that the other person does not have. I will re-post what I put in my last post in support.

    Since we are discussing the pro-choice position, I will start off with some accepted premises that they typically hold

    1. Neither parent has a responsibility to the unborn
    2. Both parents have a responsibility to the born
    What I would like some clarification on is, when in your #1 above you claim "Neither parent has a responsibility to the unborn", that is grammatically ambiguous between "has a particular but unspecified responsibility" (call this possible inference A) and "has no responsibilities at all" (and call this possible inference B). Which did you intend between A and B? I understand you may have already made your intent clear between A and B sometime earlier in the thread, and if so, all I really need, at this time, is the link to the post in which you did.

 

 
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