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  1. #21
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    If human beings inherently have any rights at all, which is to say, if "basic human rights" are not simply euphemisms for privileges granted to some human beings by others of their kind with greater power, then it must be the case that they have them by nature; by the essential fact of their humanity. If, then, power is the origin of human rights, it would seem that "rights" is an inappropriate term, and "privilege" a much better, in that it is more accurate of the actual case.

    In America we have traditionally held that "rights" are actually rights, rather than rhetorical disguises for privileges granted to some by others; that they are endowed to human beings by their nature, and ultimately by their nature's Creator. Certainly men and women are different in those properties that are not essential to "being human", but since both share the nature "being human", both share all the rights that being demands.

    And opinions on the results aside, why shouldn't women have just as much right to live, be free, and pursue their own happiness as men? The problem, as I see it, is not that women have too many rights, but that there has been a movement in this country and throughout Western civilization to convince women they have been horribly unhappy in the traditional role of women that has led to them not always exercising their rights as well as they might otherwise.

    But enough negativity. Here is some hopeful news: According to a 2012 article by Forbes, starting in the late 70s there were more women attending institutions of higher education than men, until by 2008 the number of women attending these institutions was about 2.5 million greater than men. If a college degree better qualifies a person for a successful career, and on average a lifetime earning potential at least 50% higher than anyone without a college degree, then it is little wonder more women are working more than prior to 1970.

    But here's the ray of sunshine, Saul. According to a Forbes study (in partnership with "Bump.com) most of the reason women go into the work force instead of staying at home is financial pressure, either an actual fear of not being able to make the bills, or pressure from their peer group they need to "pull their own weight" in a marriage. If this were not the case, it seems from this study that women would generally stay home; that working outside the home is not their first choice in life, but rather a pragmatic necessity they have come to accept as an integral part of modern life in America.

    And they're right. I'm going to be 66 next month. When I was six, my father worked as a staff sergeant in the Marines, the then lowest paying service per rank. We lived in a two bedroom home my parents were buying, on a corner lot, with a huge back yard fenced by a six foot cinder block wall, and a detached garage. We had a late model car my parents had bought new, a TV, in fact most of the modern conveniences our neighbors had. We were three children, and when my father was killed, my parents were sending two of us to private school. My father did all this on just his pay. My mother never worked outside the home, nor for anyone else but our family inside the home. Now that was what was "normal" in 1954. Today a staff sergeant with a wife and three kids would have to live on base, and his wife would have to work, his kids attend public school, and all this even though the Marines have since the 50s raised their per rank pay to be much more competitive with the other services.

    The point to this little bit of family history is that women are correct in thinking they need to work outside the home. And the blame for that necessity can't be laid completely at their doorstep. Sure, it is true that as a group women have favored bigger and bigger government, but why is this the case? I'd propose it's the case because every time a politician wants to get votes, they buy them with promises of more government programs. But they can't say they're just buying votes, right? So they make it seem as if people will starve in the streets if these programs are not implemented immediately, and that anyone who objects is a moral monster, and women are more susceptible to such blandishments than men. But if that's true, then it is also true that most women are married to a man, and it is the man's responsibility to help his wife see through the charade. In 1954 women had had the vote for 34 years, but they generally voted with their husbands, not because they were commanded to vote that way, but because husbands took their husbandly responsibilities much more seriously then than they generally do today . If they don't do that today, then whose fault is it women generally vote more liberal than men? Aren't we just shoveling the blame that should be ours onto them?

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  3. #22
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Here is the thing, women don't want to be slaves. They would like to have the liberty to choose their own path in life. In our capitalist world that means being able to earn money for themselves so that they are not entirely dependent on men.

    Some men want women to be their slaves. Personally I think that is because they aren't competent enough to hold their own in the emotional or intellectual arena and thus must rely on force or manipulation to get what they want. In my life women cooperate with me because what I want to do is smart and not entirely selfish. I give a **** about them so they give a **** about me.

    Now sure, there might be some advantages to having people simply do whatever you tell them with no ability to speak up for themselves, slavery was great for the slave holders after all. It was certainly quite efficient to have intelligent obedient human beings give completely of themselves to you and get little in return. But its also incredibly evil and ultimately wasteful. We've moved on from that.

    Women and men are different, but not so different that one deserves more self determination than the other. We can manage to fix issues like broken marriages or fatherless children by a means other than regressing to semi slavery for females. While you may find certain social standards have slipped, the over all prosperity of the society has grown immensely and this happens in every culture where women go from being forced into a given type of life to choosing what type of life they wish to have.

    The mistake in thinking so many (both men and women) make is that there is some best or singular way that a given gender or class of people should live their lives. In fact even if there are patterns, each individual is still a case unto themselves. Few women may make excellent soldiers, but that is no reason to say an individual woman with great skill and strength should be barred from being one or that every man must be accepted as one. Many women may well be best suited to home making and child rearing but not every woman is. Where society goes horribly wrong is when it describes what is only the common case to all cases and enforces a kind of one way thinking of conformity that denies the variation of the human spirit and biology.

    My wife doesn't work but I didn't force her to make that choice. In fact she felt very guilty at first. But I wanted her to decide her own life. I was willing to support her and happy for her to have a career if she liked. It's her choice and she should choose what is best for her. Now if she was lazy or shiftless then I would not have ever married her. She keeps the house well and she makes money on the side with her software and organizational skills. When I make career choices to leave a job or go to school or what have you, she supports me in making my own choices too, and we both work to support one another choices because we are in love and because we respect one another as fellow human beings.

    Frankly, women vote for liberal parties because both most women and liberal politicians understand the value and nature of community, the idea of getting together to cooperatively accomplish a goal. It's not about hand outs or welfare checks or government cheeze, its about cooperation and a spirit of generosity. There is value and wisdom in it and without that wisdom to temper a more competitive and independent spirit we'd all be in pretty bad shape. That said too much cooperation and generosity also gets you in trouble and there is wisdom in the spirit of competition and independent thinking. To few people look for a balance in life and think there is but one kind of wisdom.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  5. #23
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    But if that's true, then it is also true that most women are married to a man, and it is the man's responsibility to help his wife see through the charade. In 1954 women had had the vote for 34 years, but they generally voted with their husbands, not because they were commanded to vote that way, but because husbands took their husbandly responsibilities much more seriously then than they generally do today. If they don't do that today, then whose fault is it women generally vote more liberal than men? Aren't we just shoveling the blame that should be ours onto them?
    The average female age at first marriage is 27, nearly ten years after legal voting age. Many (43%) of them grow up without fathers in the house. They learn their social and political worldviews from mothers and the media and vote accordingly. The average marriage lasts eight years, before the woman (usually) initiates divorce.

    So exactly how much influence do you expect men to have over female voting habits, and when is that influence supposed to be exerted? Is the newlywed husband supposed to spend the first year countering beliefs and values built up over nearly three decades? Why would you expect that effort to succeed?

    If a woman believes she is her husbands equal, why should she listen to his guidance? Why should she even get married and stay married?

    If a man believes his wife is his equal, why does he have a responsibility to guide her? If she responds "Don't tell me how to vote or what to think" what right does he have to continue that trumps her right to be left alone?

    ---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Here is the thing, ...
    Sig, I've read your post twice. I'm trying to find something relevant to the op to rebut. But I can't. I'm not trying to be rude, honestly. I just don't see how what you've written addresses the points I made in my first post to a point where a response is called for.

    ---------- Post added at 10:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Note also that the woman ends up with the child so she's not shirking her parental duties,
    No, she's just depriving the child of a real father, with disastrous consequences.

    1. 43% of US children live without their father [US Department of Census]

    2. 90% of homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes. [US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census]

    3. 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes. [Criminal Justice & Behaviour, Vol 14, pp. 403-26, 1978]

    4. 71% of pregnant teenagers lack a father. [U.S. Department of Health and Human Services press release, Friday, March 26, 1999]

    5. 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes. [US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census]

    6. 85% of children who exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes. [Center for Disease Control]

    7. 90% of adolescent repeat arsonists live with only their mother. [Wray Herbert, “Dousing the Kindlers,” Psychology Today, January, 1985, p. 28]

    8. 71% of high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. [National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools]

    9. 75% of adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes. [Rainbows f for all God’s Children]

    10. 70% of juveniles in state operated institutions have no father. [US Department of Justice, Special Report, Sept. 1988]

    11. 85% of youths in prisons grew up in a fatherless home. [Fulton County Georgia jail populations, Texas Department of Corrections, 1992]

    12. Fatherless boys and girls are: twice as likely to drop out of high school; twice as likely to end up in jail; four times more likely to need help for emotional or behavioral problems. [US D.H.H.S. news release, March 26, 1999]

    http://fatherhoodfactor.com/us-fatherless-statistics/

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Modern relationships, personal or business, in a modern world usually relies on cooperation and negotiation and not by fiat from some authority figure. This produces the best set of outcomes because you have more minds on the matter and you get to see the merits of different arguments play out. Then there are trade offs and reciprocation down the road, thus ensuring that both sides wins equally throughout time.
    Blue sky platitudes that are at odds with real world results.


    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Do you also have similar views as to the descendents of former slaves? This argument also applies there too. What about foreigners or other non-whites, non-English speakers? How far does this 'tradition' argument go?
    Calling marriage roles traditional is using a label to communicate what I'm talking about, not to make an argument of tradition. The argument is that those traditional roles have historically succeeded in creating stable families and stable societies. Moving away from those roles is causing a catastrophic effect on families, children, and our nation as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    I know this OP is semi-tongue-in-cheek...
    Not even a little bit.
    Last edited by evensaul; February 4th, 2014 at 11:37 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #24
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    As women have gained equal rights with men over the past two hundred years, divorce rates have increased causing more broken homes with children deprived of the benefit of having two parents. Two-thirds of divorces are initiated by women.

    As women increasingly moved into the workforce, real incomes for men have declined due to the increased labor supply. This makes it far more difficult and unusual for a family to survive on one income, forcing more women into the workforce, creating a death spiral for traditional family roles of a working father and stay-at-home nurturing mother.

    As women have gained the right to vote and have actively used that vote, their tendency to vote for liberal politicians and liberal programs has increased welfare dependency by unwed mothers and their children, subsidizing and thereby increasing the incidence of single parent families living in poverty. Women are more inclined to view the government as a substitute father, to provide when a husband is absent. Further expansion of welfare programs for the elderly and unemployed are bankrupting our nation. If women didn't vote, we wouldn't have the enormous debt and deficit our nation faces.

    The current expectation of husband and wife acting as equals is unrealistic and unnatural. Women and men, as groups, are not equal physically, mentally or emotionally. And as individuals there are too many situations that arise in a marriage where disagreements can occur for them be solved by agreement. How then, should irreconcilable disagreements be resolved? One person must have the ultimate decision making authority in the marriage to resolve such situations.

    Inequality is better for families and the general welfare of our country as a whole. Women should not have equal rights.

    My argument goes like this.

    Substitute black for woman in all your arguments and you get the same result. So you want women to be powerless again and property. You want the same for everyone who isn't like you. I just reject your proposition entirely on its face.

  7. #25
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    My argument goes like this. Substitute black for woman in all your arguments and you get the same result.
    This is a straw man fallacy, and so will be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    So you want women to be powerless again and property.
    Appeal to pity fallacy will be similarly ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I just reject your proposition entirely on its face.
    And you do so without one shred of logic offered to convince anyone to join you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #26
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    This is a straw man fallacy, and so will be ignored.

    Appeal to pity fallacy will be similarly ignored.

    And you do so without one shred of logic offered to convince anyone to join you.
    Logic? Of course I am logical. Should women be second class citizens again like the olden days? I say no women, and the world are much better off now than when women were treated like property.

  9. #27
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Logic? Of course I am logical. Should women be second class citizens again like the olden days? I say no women, and the world are much better off now than when women were treated like property.
    What is your support for the claim that women are better off? Are they better off because they have to work 50 hours a week, when their husbands can't support the family because so many other women in the workforce drive down wages for their husbands? Are they better off because they cannot spend time nurturing their growing children, or because they put off having children until they are sadly too old too have them? Are they better off when they never have children? Are women better off when their fatherless children end up on drugs, drop out of school, or end up in prison? Are women better off because the average family share of the federal debt due to liberal welfare programs is now over 100k? Are women better off because they grow up in single parent poverty, because their mothers divorced their fathers? Yeah, that's all great stuff for women, isn't it.

    Finally, in her book “The Happiness Choice,” Marilyn Tam cites some happiness statistics for the female gender:
    Women’s overall level of happiness has decreased compared to what it was 40 years ago...
    •The drop occurs regardless of their financial position, marital status, children, age, or race.
    •According to a 2010 “Working Mother” survey, 40 percent of working women drink heavily to cope with stress and 57 percent said they have misused prescription drugs. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archive...n-are-you-one/

    Read this article and understand there are millions of women (my sister is one) like this woman who put off having children for careers, then deeply regret that choice. The wealthier a woman is, the more likely it is to happen. Tell me that they are happier and better off than they would have been staying at home with a satisfying life as a mother and wife, with a husband bringing home enough to support the family. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...-children.html

    It is common for women putting off marriage and children for careers to have abortions. Here's an article with data on the emotional problems they end up with. Do you consider them better off?

    Abortion is not good for women's mental health. With abortion statistics alarmingly high in the United States, we live in a culture with an increasing number of post-abortive women struggling from the profound emotional and psychological consequences of abortion. Many of these women gravely regret their abortions. Science supports this sad reality. In the fall, a meta-analysis was published in the prestigious British Journal of Psychiatry. The report was the most extensive of its kind to date -- the author looked at 22 published studies and data from more than 870,000 women. The results showed that women who have an abortion are at an 81 percent increased risk for mental health problems, including anxiety disorders, depression, drug abuse and suicidal behaviors. The study revealed the shocking statistic that close to 10 percent of all mental health problems in women can be directly attributed to abortion. http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/...#ixzz2sQ589AAb

    Again, another study confirming that women are less happy than they were 35 years ago. Doesn't less happy mean worse off, not better?

    Women are unhappier than they have been in 35 years. So suggests a study released earlier this week by the National Bureau of Economics. Two economists at U Penn conducted an exhaustive study of happiness and found that women's "subjective well-being" has declined, "both absolutely and relatively to men," as they put it. In fact, though women have historically had higher self-reported levels of happiness than men, today women are "reporting happiness levels" that are "even lower than those of men." (Men's happiness has dropped, too, but not as much as women's.) Now, happiness is notoriously difficult to study - as I noted a few years back when I wrote about progressive women and unhappiness for Slate - but the findings are nonetheless noteworthy. Though women have made gains in every area over the past 35 years - from education to their place in the work force - these gains do not appear, by the study's measures, to translate into actual contentment. http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...than_ever.html
    Last edited by evensaul; February 4th, 2014 at 08:19 PM.
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  10. #28
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The average female age at first marriage is 27, nearly ten years after legal voting age.
    Which is irrelevant to the basic point that if men want women to vote as they do, then they have an obligation, whether husband or father, to explain to them why voting with them is superior to voting against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Many (43%) of them grow up without fathers in the house. They learn their social and political worldviews from mothers and the media and vote accordingly.
    As do their brothers. So?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    The average marriage lasts eight years, before the woman (usually) initiates divorce.
    In reverse order, the initiator of divorce says nothing at all. A battered woman, initiating a divorce to save her life, is part of that statistic. And the statistic itself is arguably derived from the failure of men to be the heads of the family they're supposed to be. Studies are fairly universal in their finding that more men cheat than women, and cheating, according to the New York Times, is on the rise. Who is to say men are not simply teaching women it's okay to cheat, and that if they can teach them this, why not the wise choice at the polls?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    So exactly how much influence do you expect men to have over female voting habits...
    That all depends on how much time and energy they're willing to put into influencing them, which apparently, given the way things are going, seems to be less and less.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    ...and when is that influence supposed to be exerted?
    Just like men have mothers until they have wives, so women have fathers until they have husbands.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Is the newlywed husband supposed to spend the first year countering beliefs and values built up over nearly three decades?
    The husband is supposed to be the head (her helper in arriving at difficult decisions) of the wife for every decade they are together.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Why would you expect that effort to succeed?
    For the simple fact it does succeed so many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    If a woman believes she is her husbands equal, why should she listen to his guidance?
    Because she took a vow before God and her neighbors to do exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    Why should she even get married and stay married?
    To form a union with another human being she is biologically and emotionally designed to form, to have and raise a family, and so participate in the human evolution of life, but besides that not much.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    If a man believes his wife is his equal, why does he have a responsibility to guide her?
    You're for forcing her, and you're asking me that?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    If she responds "Don't tell me how to vote or what to think" what right does he have to continue that trumps her right to be left alone?
    Where in our Constitution is there any "right to be left alone", especially for anyone having vowed to live with another "forsaking all others"?

    You don't sound to me like someone who has enjoyed the experience of wedded bliss?

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  12. #29
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    I respect every meaning and hope you repect mine.

    It's all written in a site where I believe in (evawaseerst.be).

    'Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.' (Timothy Leary)

    Women once were high elevated above all living things on earth. The gods were simply goddesses. And how incredible as it sounds, it seems that those goddesses really have existed. For 20.000 years (from the first sign of real consciousness some 32.000 ago until 12.000 years ago) you donít see any credible picture or sculpture of a man.

    After the mega disasters the super human disappeared and nature took over. Men became the leaders and women became just good enough to bare children. An injustice that dragged on for many thousands of years, and still continues in many countries. So forgive us if we give you the impression to set up women against men. It's not what we want, but the truth has its rights.

    Some studies now show that men generally are more intelligent than women. Something that apparently has to do with their larger brain volume. Although other, more credible studies, conclude that brain size has nothing to do with wisdom, maybe a word that has a larger impact than intelligence.

    One cannot deny that intellectual development for women over many millennia was a taboo. It would therefore be a miracle if they were as intelligent as men today. But what do we see? Women are as smart (we even think smarter) than men. It appears they have more brain connections. And it looks those connections are the key to wisdom. They would even contribute to the development of a subatomic particle in our brain that -perhaps- we could describe as the soul.

    A -more or less- pure soul brings empathy. A trait that cannot come from planet earth. Look around you. All animals are eating each other in the most gruesome ways. They donít have empathy. Empathy does not exist on planet earth except in humans (and a little bit more in women than men).

    Men are more egocentric (sorry guys). Look at all statistics of crime.

    Men are better in focusing. Something that gives them a questionable advantage. Because the different regions of his brain communicate less with each other, they can focus better than women. Women then again can do several things at once. The cause of the differences, according to speculations of science, we find in natural evolution. Men in prehistoric times did have to hunt, and focus, while women didnít need to focus but could do several things while men were doing what nature obliged them to do: hunt.

    Of course we cannot blame scientists when they are searching for answers. Only we donít need to believe all they are saying.

    Why women are superior to men.

    Long-term studies, including at the University of Valencia, have shown that women typically have more empathy than men (Spanish Journal of Psychology 2009, vol. 12 No1 76-83). Earlier studies had already shown that they have more guilt feelings. Further, they are more spiritual and above all: they can be a fairer judge. Empathy, conscience, sense of injustice, respect for all life, spirituality (even paranormal abilities) ... it are values which fit women better than men (generally spoken). Men are -generally- more focused on personal power and prestige.

    From small acts of violence to murder, with everything in between: men commit appalling more crimes than women. They blame their testosterone levels (the so-called male aggression hormone). But it is very questionable whether pedophilia -one of the crimes where they are over represented- has to do with testosterone. Committing crimes seems rather motivated by a shortage of compassion, a shortage of guilt feelings, and an excess of egocentrism.

    Compassion and guilt feelings -two superior gifts of humankind- are described as soft. A shame of course. But since on planet earth all that counts for living things is power, itís no more than normal most of us see compassion as soft. And if mankind does not intervene, compassion will disappear. The lust for power will continue to rise. Something where all great prophets have warned us for in the past.

    To counter the injustice something has to change thoroughly. Women must obtain the right to take part in politics and elections all over the world. And although they carry their mother instinct, it should not surprise us if more women than men are willing to take the most necessary step: Stop the population growth by birth control.

    Although the technology of the future will allow earth to carry some more billions of people, we'd better focus on quality rather than on quantity. In other words, there are enough people on this planet. Let us not make more, but better people. Not power or prestige, but making a 'righteous child' should be the highest goal. More: it should be the only thing that really matters, no matter how soft this may sound. And itís up to women to take the first steps to make this come true.

    Although, to encourage men a bit: many men Ėthose you donít hear- are thinking like women. In fact, to give these silent sufferers a chance, candidate leaders (even on a local level) should be highly gifted and highly sensitive (and we opt for more women than men to rule). Itís time for a change. Highly gifted and sensitive people have higher IQ, have more empathy, a strong urge for justice, greater perseverance, they are more spiritual, donít prefer personal power nor material things etc. Now you donít see them at the top because they turn their backs to hypocrisy and intrigue, the two most effective weapons that life on earth uses.

    Note: Yes we know that people like Leonard G Horowitz, Jeremiah Wright, Robert B. Strecker, Matilde Krim, Wangari Maathai, Boyd Graves ... insinuated Ėsome more than others- that masses of people are being killed in some way or another Ėwe donít camouflage- to prevent overpopulation. We donít believe that, but itís because we donít want to.

    Conclusion: we are living in a very strange world. Some great men know the problem but they don't belong to the happy few, so all they can do is make us aware of the unstoppable overpopulation.

    We count on our real leaders to solve the problem on an sincere human way, something that is far more complicated than a lot of short sighted people think.

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Lente View Post

    A -more or less- pure soul brings empathy. A trait that cannot come from planet earth. Look around you. All animals are eating each other in the most gruesome ways. They donít have empathy. Empathy does not exist on planet earth except in humans (and a little bit more in women than men).

    .
    That is simply not correct. Animals are capable of empathy. My dog has emotions including empathy. There are many YouTube videos that demonstrate animal empathy from risking their lives to save a friend such as a dog dragging another dog off a busy highway or the cheeta that didn't eat a its prey when it discovered that it had babies.

    The evidence us everywhere

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Cstamford, it's clear you think that women should be guided by men. Doesn't that mean they are unequal in their ability to carry out their responsibilities as citizens? When people are judged to be unable to carry out those responsibilities we deny them the vote. We do it with minors, felons and (up til now) illegal aliens. If women as a group can't act and vote responsibly, then why should they have the vote?

    ---------- Post added at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    Here is some hopeful news: According to a 2012 article by Forbes, starting in the late 70s there were more women attending institutions of higher education than men, until by 2008 the number of women attending these institutions was about 2.5 million greater than men. If a college degree better qualifies a person for a successful career, and on average a lifetime earning potential at least 50% higher than anyone without a college degree, then it is little wonder more women are working more than prior to 1970.
    How is any of that going to improve things? Women will continue displacing men from higher paying jobs, and the increased labor supply will generally drive down wages for jobs requiring degrees. You can't put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #32
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Cstamford, it's clear you think that women should be guided by men. Doesn't that mean they are unequal in their ability to carry out their responsibilities as citizens?
    Yes and no. Men and women are different without being "unequal", a premise you simply dismiss in your thinking. Men need to guide women, and women need to guide men. Each was designed to complement, and thus improve the other. Do you agree or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul
    When people are unable to carry out those responsibilities we deny them the vote. We do it with minors, felons and (up til now) illegal aliens. If women as a group can't act and vote responsibly, then why should they have the vote?
    Because they can act and vote responsibly when they are complemented by men, just as men can act and vote responsibly when they are complemented by women. If women as a group are not presently acting and voting responsibly, the answer is not to force them to consistent with some man's (your) judgments, absent their input; the problem lies in the scarcity of committed relationships where men and women complement one another's thinking, and the answer lies in promoting, and hopefully thereby increasing the ratio of those optimal relationships consistent with the design of men and women.

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    Yes and no. Men and women are different without being "unequal", a premise you simply dismiss in your thinking. Men need to guide women, and women need to guide men. Each was designed to complement, and thus improve the other. Do you agree or not?
    If you can restate that to say "women and men are each better than the other in certain areas", yes, I agree. And you've stated that men should guide women on voting. You've never said women have anything to offer men in that area. So the conclusion is that men are better than women in voting for the good of society.

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    Because they can act and vote responsibly when they are complemented by men, just as men can act and vote responsibly when they are complemented by women. If women as a group are not presently acting and voting responsibly, the answer is not to force them to consistent with some man's (your) judgments, absent their input; the problem lies in the scarcity of committed relationships where men and women complement one another's thinking, and the answer lies in promoting, and hopefully thereby increasing the ratio of those optimal relationships consistent with the design of men and women.
    This assumes that women should vote because there is sufficient good inherent in their voting to outweigh the negatives. I see no reason to believe that is true. By negatives, I mean not only the effect women voting has on laws, but also on their perceived equality with men and how that encourages them to enter professions that had provided a man with enough income to support a family, and the stress caused in marriages and families by women thinking they are co-heads of household.

    ---------- Post added at 11:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    In America we have traditionally held that "rights" are actually rights, rather than rhetorical disguises for privileges granted to some by others; that they are endowed to human beings by their nature, and ultimately by their nature's Creator. Certainly men and women are different in those properties that are not essential to "being human", but since both share the nature "being human", both share all the rights that being demands.
    Despite my having made secular arguments in the op and following posts, you have made several comments such as that above suggesting your views are guided by religion. If so, I'm assuming it is by Christianity. If God believes in equal rights for all men and women in a nation, why does the Bible generally, or Jesus specifically, not condemn slavery? Why does it not make clear that women should have equal rights with men? I don't read anything in the Bible that suggests equal rights for women should be the norm.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Despite my having made secular arguments in the op and following posts, you have made several comments such as that above suggesting your views are guided by religion. If so, I'm assuming it is by Christianity. If God believes in equal rights for all men and women in a nation, why does the Bible generally, or Jesus specifically, not condemn slavery? Why does it not make clear that women should have equal rights with men? I don't read anything in the Bible that suggests equal rights for women should be the norm.
    Frankly, my personal interest in this debate was never great. It was always piqued more by the fact I generally like debating you, and not so much the topic. So I'm pretty much finished with the topic per se. However, you asked me a specific question about the Bible and I didn't want to ignore it, thereby leaving open any number of inferences.

    The basic equality of the sexes is first expressed in the very first book of the Bible, the first chapter:

    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    Gen 1:26

    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    Gen 1:27

    Most people, when they read the "and let them" in verse 26, infer multiple men rather than men and women, but taken in the context as a whole it is clear the "them" refers to "male and female" as well. If there were no other passage in the Bible indicting the equality of men and women, this one would do in the absence of any passage specifically expressing the inequality of men and women. But this is not the only passage in the Bible on this topic. Others build upon it.

    This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
    Gen 5:1-2

    Here we see that the name "Adam" is used, not to name a man, but to name mankind consisting, again, of male and female, and whom God blesses equally as one in union. This one in union concept first appears here:

    And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
    Gen 2:23-24

    So by the time we get five chapters deep in a volume containing 66 books, the equality of women is firmly established. What follows, then, are simply passages that build on this basic proposition by explaining in practical terms what "one in union" means in daily life.

    In Numbers 30 (the entire chapter) we first meet God arguably establishing in His laws a hierarchical order between men and women. It is much too long to quote here, but it is a law concerning vows made to God. It begins with the foundational truth: vows made to God must be kept. That established, in verse three an exception is made: maidens or wives who make vows to God, if their fathers or husbands overhear or otherwise learn of the vows made on the day they are made, they may void them, which is to say remove the penalty in law for breaking a vow made to God, which is death. However, if they don't disallow then on that day, the vows stand, and if they seek to disallow them at any time after the day on which they were made, and they learned of them, then the father or husband will "bear her iniquity"; iow, bear the penalty of a broken vow as if it were his and not hers.

    I'm not positive, but I believe this is the first time we run into the concept of men "ruling" over women, in that it allows a man to "overrule" something a woman obviously wants to do that a man believes is not good for her. But notice how this function of overruling a woman's evaluation and decision to act is established only for her good. Nothing is said about men doing it for their own good, or for the good of any other. Also notice this authority is limited to fathers over daughters, and husbands over wives, not men in general over women in general. It is therefore an authority over women men are given by God in only two of the multitude of relationships men and women can have with one another, and those relationships are guided and founded on altruistic love each for the other.

    Women were prophets of God: Ex. 15:20; Judges 4:4; 2 Kgs. 22:14 (2 Chr. 34:22); Isa. 8:3; Lu. 2:36; Acts 21:9
    Prophets were listed second in order of importance to the Church of Christ on earth: 1 Co. 12:28; Eph. 2:20
    Women to work outside the home if necessary: (working with animal herds) Gen. 29:9; Ex. 2:16; Ruth 2:8; (work in fields) Isa. 27

    This could go on for much longer, but I think Paul sums it up best:

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28 (NIV)

    Certainly Paul didn't mean to say that literally the two genders no longer exist, but that in the eyes of God they are equal in Christ Jesus.

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by lesterG View Post
    There shouldn't be discrimination.
    Of course there should, for men and women are different in many ways. Not to be discriminating concerning these differences would be to deny their reality, which would be stupid, like denying the reality water is wet and fire isn't.

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    There is some truth in the fact that democracy in marriage is impossible and both cannot hold the reins.
    What is the answer if no agreement is possible? Did I hear the word divorce? Human beings often disagree as any debating site will show.

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    Certainly Paul didn't mean to say that literally the two genders no longer exist, but that in the eyes of God they are equal in Christ Jesus.
    In heaven, yes. But not on earth in this life. You left out important verses in Genesis that make clear Eve was made as a helper for Adam. And Paul confirms this: "For indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake." 1 Cor 11:9, and "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." 1 Tim 2: 12-13" The woman must remain quiet and not exercise authority over the man, because man was made first and the woman is his helper, not the master. Nowhere can I find a statement saying anything like that about men not exercising authority over the woman. Everything indicates the contrary.

    Wish you were still here, by the way.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    And, let's look at Bible passages that are absolutely clear in saying that wives do not have equal rights, and should not be co-head of household.

    Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24

    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Colossians 3:18


    Come back, cstamford. Come back and refute my argument.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And, let's look at Bible passages that are absolutely clear in saying that wives do not have equal rights, and should not be co-head of household.
    The Bible doesn't say that women don't have equal rights; it says they don't have the same rights. A married woman has the right to receive support and protection from her husband; her husband has the right to expect obedience from her.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    The Bible doesn't say that women don't have equal rights; it says they don't have the same rights.
    Supporting passages?

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    A married woman has the right to receive support and protection from her husband; her husband has the right to expect obedience from her.
    A person required to obey another does not have equal rights. I think that is self-evident.

    However, if you're advocating a policy in which men are in charge, vote, and are the breadwinner and protector of the family, while women take care of the children and domestic responsibilities, I'm just fine with you saying they have separate but equal rights.
    Last edited by evensaul; December 22nd, 2014 at 11:28 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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