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  1. #41
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    As women have gained equal rights with men over the past two hundred years, divorce rates have increased causing more broken homes with children deprived of the benefit of having two parents. Two-thirds of divorces are initiated by women.
    Over the past 200 years? Equality is rather new condition that was the result of the social upheavals of the 1970's 80's feminist movements and yes, there was a divorce spike in those years. Divorce rates have been receeding since, as society adjusted to new realities.

    Now divorce occurs far less in college educated homes. Want less divorce? encourage both men and women to educate themselves into being marketable in the workplace and promote salary equality since financial stress is a very important factor in couples breaking up.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Women and men, as groups, are not equal physically, mentally or emotionally. And as individuals there are too many situations that arise in a marriage where disagreements can occur for them be solved by agreement. How then, should irreconcilable disagreements be resolved? One person must have the ultimate decision making authority in the marriage to resolve such situations.

    Inequality is better for families and the general welfare of our country as a whole. Women should not have equal rights.
    This is a self-defeating argument. True enough in every couple there are physical, mental and emotional differences and because of this, a leader naturally emerges in the couple. What you suggest, is to break up what occurs organicaly and replacing it with mandatory norm that may not be natural or best for the couple. Not only is it counter productive, it's also entirely useless since a power relation occurs naturally one way or the other. Equality as never meant having equal power. All relationships are about give and take - negociating. It's a power struggle.
    Last edited by Vandaler; December 23rd, 2014 at 05:20 AM.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    This is pretty much spot on, and it's a notion that I think only sounds extreme in particular parts of the Western world.

    Feminism is a mental disease that has poisoned the minds of otherwise perfectly good women.

    Perhaps the problem is the issue of monogamy. In America, it is traditionally frowned upon for a man to have many concubines. But what's the problem with that? lolzzz

    Most divorces are over financial reasons, which is why most NFL marriages end in divorce after the player leaves the league (most NFL players are broke two years after they're done playing on the field on Sunday).

    Solution to all relationship problems is make a lot of money. Simple. Money just makes things flow. Most females are incapable of taking care of themselves, or simply don't want to. The whole "look for a provider" thing is hard-wired into females, which is why they flock to money (I'm talking real money...private jet/ferrari and lamborghini/boats and homes all over the world money.

  4. #44
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofnietzsche View Post
    This is pretty much spot on, and it's a notion that I think only sounds extreme in particular parts of the Western world.

    Feminism is a mental disease that has poisoned the minds of otherwise perfectly good women.

    Perhaps the problem is the issue of monogamy. In America, it is traditionally frowned upon for a man to have many concubines. But what's the problem with that? lolzzz

    Most divorces are over financial reasons, which is why most NFL marriages end in divorce after the player leaves the league (most NFL players are broke two years after they're done playing on the field on Sunday).

    Solution to all relationship problems is make a lot of money. Simple. Money just makes things flow. Most females are incapable of taking care of themselves, or simply don't want to. The whole "look for a provider" thing is hard-wired into females, which is why they flock to money (I'm talking real money...private jet/ferrari and lamborghini/boats and homes all over the world money.
    I'm pretty sure that men would flock to rich women and live a life of luxury if they could! I doubt that desire is exclusive to women. In fact, financial independence is an important part of everyone's goal not just women's.

    I also disagree it is hard wired; if it were then there wouldn't be many women in the work place. Note how the religiously minded amongst us (in this thread and others) emphasize that it is scriptural - they actually need their deity in order to justify keeping their women at home, at their beck and call and under their 'command'.

    Note that divorces don't happen necessarily because of one side or another. It is unfair to blame one gender and it makes no sense to blame it on women's rights. If you do, then it must mean that less rights for women means a better family - ie, an unhappy woman makes for a good marriage!

    That makes little sense but if you look at our less morally and socially advanced neighbors in the Middle East & India, you see a lot of unhappy women and girls in terrible marriages. I'm sure they would love to divorce to escape that terrible life of servitude.

    Anyway, all arguments here, religious and socially conservative and anti-women are moot. The genie is out of the bottle - once women have tasted freedom and independence AND find they are still able to have successful careers and families, these arguments will go the way of most social conservative ideas - the dustbin of the market place of ideas.

  5. #45
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Anyway, all arguments here, religious and socially conservative and anti-women are moot. The genie is out of the bottle - once women have tasted freedom and independence AND find they are still able to have successful careers and families, these arguments will go the way of most social conservative ideas - the dustbin of the market place of ideas.
    This is a variation on the "There is no alternative" fallacy combined with "Appeal to the future" fallacy, and can be ignored as such.

    ---------- Post added at 12:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Over the past 200 years?
    I rounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Equality is rather new condition that was the result of the social upheavals of the 1970's 80's feminist movements and yes, there was a divorce spike in those years. Divorce rates have been receeding since, as society adjusted to new realities.
    The efforts to gain equality for women are not new, and the changes have been gradual, going back long before the 1970's. Look up dates on the women's suffrage movement, for example, or when women were allowed to own property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Now divorce occurs far less in college educated homes.
    Because for the last thirty years women (and men) have been putting off marriage, choosing to live with and sleep with any number of partners before marriage. Along the way, the children conceived are either aborted or are born to unmarried mothers, growing up without a father figure - to disastrous results as I listed in an earlier post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    Want less divorce? encourage both men and women to educate themselves into being marketable in the workplace and promote salary equality since financial stress is a very important factor in couples breaking up.
    Further exacerbating the problems of one-parent "families", and lower wages for men that are insufficient to support a family, and increasing the number of kids in day care rather than home care, and the number of "latch-key" kids coming home to an empty house after school. Yeah, that's a great cure for what ails the modern family. /sarcasm. As I said to cstamford earlier, you can't put out a flame by pouring gasoline on it. Increasing education and earnings for women will only fuel the fire which is nearly out of control already.

    ---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    This is a self-defeating argument. True enough in every couple there are physical, mental and emotional differences and because of this, a leader naturally emerges in the couple. What you suggest, is to break up what occurs organicaly and replacing it with mandatory norm that may not be natural or best for the couple. Not only is it counter productive, it's also entirely useless since a power relation occurs naturally one way or the other. Equality as never meant having equal power. All relationships are about give and take - negociating. It's a power struggle.
    Your "appeal to nature" fallacy isn't going to work here. (Naturally occurring or "organic" things aren't automatically good. Murder occurs "organically". So does incest, robbery, famine, malaria, and lots of other undesirable things. Man makes rules, regulations and standard operating procedures, which you call mandatory norms, to avoid bad things that happen organically.)

    "It's a power struggle." Yes, and that is the biggest problem with women having equal rights. When a husband and wife adamantly disagree on important issues, there is no way to effectively settle the disagreement. There must be a single "head" of household for such occasions, and the lack of one in many modern marriages is causing disastrous results. Can you name some successful organizations with co-chief executives having equal and overlapping authority? There isn't one, because any effective organization has to have someone who can, in the end, say "this is how its going to be". Even the United Nations has a single Secretary General empowered with the final say on administrative matters, because that is necessary to avoid extremes of deadlock, chaos, and the possible collapse of an organization. The same holds true for most marriages in the real world.
    Last edited by evensaul; December 26th, 2014 at 03:05 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #46
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Naturally occurring or "organic" things aren't automatically good.
    And things that happen naturally aren't automatically bad either. I only highlight that your argument aim to fix a problem that does not exist. Yes, it's true, organisations needs an ultimate leader in matters of grave disagreement but there is always such a leader that occur naturally that capacity of leadership that emerges more strongly from one spouse versus the other might give proper clue of two wich of the two is better suited for the task.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    I only highlight that your argument aim to fix a problem that does not exist.
    The estimates I read suggest that 60%-80% of divorces in the US are filed due to "irreconcilable differences", meaning disagreements that can't be resolved. The problem exists, regardless of whether you agree with the cause or solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    ...but there is always such a leader that occur naturally that capacity of leadership that emerges more strongly from one spouse versus the other might give proper clue of which of the two is better suited for the task.
    Wishful thinking does not make convincing support for any argument.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  8. #48
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The estimates I read suggest that 60%-80% of divorces in the US are filed due to "irreconcilable differences", meaning disagreements that can't be resolved. The problem exists, regardless of whether you agree with the cause or solution.
    As I've stated before, marriages that occur recently and have assimilated principles of equality have low divorce rates meaning that they do find a way to resolve their differences even if a leader is not "mandated" by social norms.

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Wishful thinking does not make convincing support for any argument.
    And why is it that going against (in some cases) what comes naturally, and mandating who is to lead for better results not wishful thinking as well?
    It's naive on your part to think that even in what you consider a golden age, that women did not have considerable power. Sex is a very powerful leverage.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    As women have gained equal rights with men over the past two hundred years, divorce rates have increased causing more broken homes with children deprived of the benefit of having two parents. Two-thirds of divorces are initiated by women.

    As women increasingly moved into the workforce, real incomes for men have declined due to the increased labor supply. This makes it far more difficult and unusual for a family to survive on one income, forcing more women into the workforce, creating a death spiral for traditional family roles of a working father and stay-at-home nurturing mother.

    As women have gained the right to vote and have actively used that vote, their tendency to vote for liberal politicians and liberal programs has increased welfare dependency by unwed mothers and their children, subsidizing and thereby increasing the incidence of single parent families living in poverty. Women are more inclined to view the government as a substitute father, to provide when a husband is absent. Further expansion of welfare programs for the elderly and unemployed are bankrupting our nation. If women didn't vote, we wouldn't have the enormous debt and deficit our nation faces.

    The current expectation of husband and wife acting as equals is unrealistic and unnatural. Women and men, as groups, are not equal physically, mentally or emotionally. And as individuals there are too many situations that arise in a marriage where disagreements can occur for them be solved by agreement. How then, should irreconcilable disagreements be resolved? One person must have the ultimate decision making authority in the marriage to resolve such situations.

    Inequality is better for families and the general welfare of our country as a whole. Women should not have equal rights.
    Suppose I concede every part of this argument, women are inferior in all the listed ways and their wanton inferiority is chomping away at the foundations of society like so many termites.

    Your argument is predicated on the notion that the preservation of a societal good is a reasonable justification for restrictions on the most fundamental vehicles of human agency. Is that something we want to establish as part of our nation's political discourse?


    edit for my true position:
    I am a firm believer in the value of gender polarity, and I am absolutely of the belief that differences in gender come more from inherent differences in the sexes than culture (though culture certainly also affects gender roles mightily). However, these generalized differences are not representative of entire genders. There are lots of women who would be utterly incompetent at raising a family but who are productive in the professional world. There are lots of men who love their children and could be stay at home dads by choice. There are plenty of women in politics, business, and academia who utterly outclass the majority of males in their field. To have government mandated gender roles would shoe-horn these people into roles and positions that are sub-optimal, and would deprive society of potentially great minds in any number of fields.
    Last edited by cdubs; December 29th, 2014 at 06:42 PM.
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  11. #50
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by cdubs View Post
    Suppose I concede every part of this argument, women are inferior in all the listed ways and their wanton inferiority is chomping away at the foundations of society like so many termites. Your argument is predicated on the notion that the preservation of a societal good is a reasonable justification for restrictions on the most fundamental vehicles of human agency. Is that something we want to establish as part of our nation's political discourse?
    Sure. It already is. Minors can't drive cars, sign legal contracts, vote, drink alcohol, own real property, etc. Felons are not allowed to vote or own firearms. Non-citizens cannot vote, at least not yet (sigh). We take rights away from those found mentally incompetent due to dementia, etc.

    We do all of those to maximize total benefit for the larger society. If you are willing to concede all my points, then why should women be excluded from restrictions, when we readily restrict the rights of other groups of people on the basis of their potential negative contributions?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #51
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Sure. It already is. Minors can't drive cars, sign legal contracts, vote, drink alcohol, own real property, etc. Felons are not allowed to vote or own firearms. Non-citizens cannot vote, at least not yet (sigh). We take rights away from those found mentally incompetent due to dementia, etc.

    I believe the common factor is incompetency (children and mentally incompetent and perhaps felons) or as punishment (felons).

    We do all of those to maximize total benefit for the larger society.
    "Benefit of society" is very vague. There are very specific reasons that we deny certain people the rights and generally it's incompetence (we can't trust children, the mentally incompetent, and felons to exercise certain rights) and perhaps punishment (felons). I don't see a valid reason to remove women's rights on the same basis.

    So I should ask what rights do you seek to remove from women? Drive? Vote? Own property? And what is the reasoning for removing the specific right(s) you seek to remove? Why should we deny women the right to that particular thing?

    And I should say that if you are concerned about the divorce rate and want to create legislation to combat it, the most logical and direct approach is to make it more difficult to get a divorce as opposed to denying women certain rights in the hope that it will have a positive effect on the divorce rate.

  13. #52
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    As I've stated before, marriages that occur recently and have assimilated principles of equality have low divorce rates meaning that they do find a way to resolve their differences even if a leader is not "mandated" by social norms.
    Have you factored in all those unwed mothers (current illegitimacy rate is 40%) with fatherless children, or are those just not important enough for you to include in your calculations?


    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    And why is it that going against (in some cases) what comes naturally, and mandating who is to lead for better results not wishful thinking as well?
    Because the downside of what has changed is a lot larger than the upside. See above, and all the other posts I've made about the ill effects of not having a father around. Do you not care about the children, Van?


    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    It's naive on your part to think that even in what you consider a golden age...
    Straw man, Vandaler. I haven't identified any golden age. But I'd say what we have right now sure isn't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    ...that women did not have considerable power. Sex is a very powerful leverage.
    I think what you liberals fail to see is that today's women have thrown away that leverage. It used to be that a woman could force her boyfriend to promise he would marry her if she got pregnant. But now women have abortion on demand, education and employment prospects, and want to be treated as equals. They can no longer elicit that promise of marriage from a boyfriend, because he knows she can go get an abortion. Liberals have also succeeded in removing the stigma from being an unwed mother, so why should a young man make such a promise to a woman he is trying to bed? It has become completely unnecessary!

    And even if the man does marry her, the woman still has no sexual leverage. Liberals have succeeded in removing the stigma from divorce, adultery, and even prostitution. A man can find another girlfriend and abandon his wife and child with near impunity. It used to be such a man was considered a real scumbag, but now he's only called a deadbeat if he fails to send a monthly check. Again, go check the single mother statistics. Sexual leverage is a quaint idea from a bygone era.
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  14. #53
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Do you not care about the children, Van?


    The statistics you bring up are support for the importance of the fathers involvement in a childrens life. Involvement, does not necessarily mean living under the same roof as the mother. Many fathers carry their share of responsabilities through joint/shared custody. No need to redefine the rights of women to address the fatherless issue.

    I'd go even further that it's quite possibly men having to much right that creates the problem of fatherless homes. How can they be thusly, absent of their responsabilities? I hope you won't appeal to emotions with anecdotal stories of men shutout of access to their children in bitter battles over custody... these are'nt frequent enough to explain the sheer number of fatherless homes.

    I think it's time you show Challenge to support a claim. that women's right is the cause of fatherless homes with proper studies.

    ---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I think what you liberals fail to see is that today's women have thrown away that leverage. It used to be that a woman could force her boyfriend to promise he would marry her if she got pregnant. But now women have abortion on demand, education and employment prospects, and want to be treated as equals. They can no longer elicit that promise of marriage from a boyfriend, because he knows she can go get an abortion. Liberals have also succeeded in removing the stigma from being an unwed mother, so why should a young man make such a promise to a woman he is trying to bed? It has become completely unnecessary!
    That's not what I meant... I meant the sexual leverage that exist within an existing couple, as part of an ongoing power struggle. You're refering to shotgun weddings. Fine.

    A policy that seem sensible is to force men to pay child support for children born out of wedlock and this way to, they would be inclined in being present in their lives.

    Again, it seems to me men have to much rights.
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  15. #54
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post

    I think what you liberals fail to see is that today's women have thrown away that leverage. It used to be that a woman could force her boyfriend to promise he would marry her if she got pregnant.
    And you're surprised why there are more divorces? Still, you are wrong on that point anyway, there is still the sense that the man does the 'right thing' and take responsibility.

    But now women have abortion on demand, education and employment prospects, and want to be treated as equals.
    And that is somehow worse than dishonestly having a child in order to force a man to marry her so that she would forever be at his beck and call? I don't get it - how can education & employment be consider a bad thing!

    They can no longer elicit that promise of marriage from a boyfriend, because he knows she can go get an abortion.
    Or use contraceptives! Hence sex education needs to be taught.

    Liberals have also succeeded in removing the stigma from being an unwed mother, so why should a young man make such a promise to a woman he is trying to bed? It has become completely unnecessary!
    Liberals have succeeded in removing stigma from the victim and often-times the parent taking the most responsibility!

    And even if the man does marry her, the woman still has no sexual leverage.
    Usually, 'no' means no - the sexual leverage still exists.

    Liberals have succeeded in removing the stigma from divorce, adultery, and even prostitution.
    The stigma still exists but the blame isn't just on the woman. I think you'll have a hard time backing this up.

    A man can find another girlfriend and abandon his wife and child with near impunity.
    No he cannot - not with social media. And are you seriously thinking that there is no social impact on dead-beat dads?

    It used to be such a man was considered a real scumbag, but now he's only called a deadbeat if he fails to send a monthly check. Again, go check the single mother statistics. Sexual leverage is a quaint idea from a bygone era.
    And that should raise a red flag for other women. People talk to each other all the time, deadbeat scumbag dads will forever be labeled. I don't see how any of your points are as common as you make out.

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Evensaul,

    It would seem according to your argument and further reasoning that gender equality which in turn brought about vast social programs is the root of many dire consequences. If that was true, I suppose that even more equality (meaning more women's right) and even bigger social programs would mean for even larger consequences right? Why is it then that Scandinavian countries that are among the most advanced in terms of women's right and have huge welfare programs do so well?

    Seems to me by your argument that I should be very concerned for the welfare of those Scandinavian children when in fact, they have great prospects in life, thanks in part to totally free education all the way up to and including University. They're better off where they are then in the US by just about any metric.
    Last edited by Vandaler; December 30th, 2014 at 05:38 PM.
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  17. #56
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    When people talk about Scandinavian welfare or the "Nordic Model", they are usually thinking of Sweden, rather than Norway or Denmark.

    Sweden suicide rate is higher than many other industrialized nations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Sweden

    Sweden youth suicide is high and increasing: http://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?NID=8348

    And Sweden has a higher divorce rate than the United States, despite the benefits of a homogenous society. The recent upward ticks in the divorce rate are attributed by some observers to the increase in mixed-culture marriages as the immigrant population has increased. Imagine what the divorce rate would be if Sweden was a large "melting pot" like the United States.

    Sweden's unwed mother percentage is the highest in the world, because the culture allows cohabitation.

    Sweden is able to spend an unusually high amount of money, as a percentage of GDP, on social services because it has relied on the United States and NATO (which Sweden refuses to join) to deter aggression by former Soviet Union and Russia. If that country spent real money on its own national defense, it would have far less to spend on socialist programs.

    So what is it that you think I should be impressed by?

    We're a little off-topic now, but if you want to read about how the Nordic Model of welfare is (predictably) starting to crumble, here are some thoughts by people who know more about it than either of us:

    http://www.aei.org/publication/lesso...welfare-state/
    http://libertybullhorn.com/2013/02/2...welfare-state/
    http://www.thelocal.se/20140121/swed...ack-in-nordics

    .................................................. ............


    And here's another verse from the Bible for Christians, describing a feminist led society (similar to Sweden, which liberals see as a model for the United States):

    Isaiah 3:12 (KJV) As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
    Last edited by evensaul; December 31st, 2014 at 02:12 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And I wonder why this is.

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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by sovietprincess View Post
    And I wonder why this is.
    Because when I first started on ODN, I made it a policy to not accept or offer friend requests, and have stuck to that decision.

    Now, do you have a rebuttal to my arguments in this thread, or are you just a troll princess?
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Because when I first started on ODN, I made it a policy to not accept or offer friend requests, and have stuck to that decision.

    Now, do you have a rebuttal to my arguments in this thread, or are you just a troll princess?
    You've got to admit that post was pretty damned funny.
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  22. #60
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    Re: Women Should Not Have Equal Rights

    I came across this graph today, and it made me think of this old but important thread.

    As participation in the workforce by women increased from 1948 to 2010, it is oppositely mirrored by by a decline in workforce participation among men.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is evidence that giving women the right to compete with men for jobs has reduced the ability of men to support their families as primary breadwinner and head of household, destabilizing the traditional family structure.

    Following that increase in women working and men not working came, no surprise, an increase in single motherhood and divorce. And the result of that is more children raised in poverty and/or without a healthy male role model in their lives, which leads to teenage crime, lots of other problems, and continuing downward social spiral. See post #23.
    Last edited by evensaul; May 25th, 2018 at 03:44 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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