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  1. #41
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Im with the OP. I do not pledge my allegiance to this country, particularly because of its government. Im not going to pledge to stand united with a country that wants to severely restrict my freedoms, liberties, and rights while seizing the fruits of my labor and forcibly handing them over to leeches within the social construct....among a great many other issues.

    No, in fact, once things have gone too far and there is no other choice, a lot of people, myself included, are going to violently test that "indivisible" part of this pledge.

    I pledge allegiance to freedom, liberty, and personal rights and to personal sovereignty. If this government stands in the way of that, to hell with it.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

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  3. #42
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Im with the OP. I do not pledge my allegiance to this country, particularly because of its government. Im not going to pledge to stand united with a country that wants to severely restrict my freedoms, liberties, and rights while seizing the fruits of my labor and forcibly handing them over to leeches within the social construct....among a great many other issues.

    No, in fact, once things have gone too far and there is no other choice, a lot of people, myself included, are going to violently test that "indivisible" part of this pledge.

    I pledge allegiance to freedom, liberty, and personal rights and to personal sovereignty. If this government stands in the way of that, to hell with it.

    Mixed it up again, lol.

    Why would you stay here?
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  4. #43
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post

    Why would you stay here?
    Because I want to? I dont have to leave if I dont like it, I can change it. That is what will happen.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  5. #44
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    ...I'm not going to switch from pledging allegiance to my ideals to pledging allegiance to apathy toward and/or despairing of those ideals. I'm going to have to be shown new ideals before I switch, and you're not showing me any.
    I agree with the ideals. However, the pledge is not to ideals, but rather to the country and government. It does not read "I pledge allegiance to the ideals of...". It is clearly a pledge to the flag of the United States of America, a country, which is a republic currently, but not guaranteed to stay that way.

    I'm sure there was some kind oath or pledge said by Germans, especially in the military, to the Weimar Republic of Germany. They pledged allegiance to Germany. When Hitler was elected and changed the government, it was still Germany, and Germans continued being loyal to their country, following Hitler into the Third Reich. I'm not saying that will happen here, but something similar is possible if we blindly pledge allegiance to a flag representing our country, rather than pledging ourselves to ideals.

    By the way, does this salute look familiar? It is what Americans used to do while reciting the Pledge. Hitler liked it so much, he stole the idea and used it for the Nazi Party.

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    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #45
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I agree with the ideals. However, the pledge is not to ideals, but rather to the country and government. It does not read "I pledge allegiance to the ideals of...". It is clearly a pledge to the flag of the United States of America, a country, which is a republic currently, but not guaranteed to stay that way.

    I'm sure there was some kind oath or pledge said by Germans, especially in the military, to the Weimar Republic of Germany. They pledged allegiance to Germany. When Hitler was elected and changed the government, it was still Germany, and Germans continued being loyal to their country following Hitler into the Third Reich. I'm not saying that will happen here, but something similar is possible if we blindly pledge allegiance to a flag representing our country, rather than pledging ourselves to ideals.
    No I pledge allegiance to the Flag. A flag is a representation of ideals. The United States part is simply stating the name of the country the flag and its ideals reside. One also, pledges allegiance to the specific form of government. A republic. Then references other ideals. Those being liberty and justice for all.
    Last edited by Mdougie; February 12th, 2014 at 06:30 PM.

  7. #46
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Because I want to? I dont have to leave if I dont like it, I can change it. That is what will happen.

    Indeed, the system has that mechanism built in...get involved.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #47
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Indeed, the system has that mechanism built in...get involved.
    Unless the mechanism is hopelessly corrupt and lost all affect. In which case, another, more decisive mechanism exist that will solve this once and for all. That is the movement I am interested in.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  9. #48
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Unless the mechanism is hopelessly corrupt and lost all affect. In which case, another, more decisive mechanism exist that will solve this once and for all. That is the movement I am interested in.
    Ah death and violent treason.

  10. #49
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Ah death and violent treason.
    I dont consider fighting against what this government has become or is regressing into treason. The victor though will make that final decision.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  11. #50
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Unless the mechanism is hopelessly corrupt and lost all affect. In which case, another, more decisive mechanism exist that will solve this once and for all. That is the movement I am interested in.
    Geez, SG, I think you're going to get a visit from the FBI before I do. I'm arguing theoretically. I suggest you make it clear that you are also.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #51
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I dont consider fighting against what this government has become or is regressing into treason. The victor though will make that final decision.
    Of course it is treason. Advocating and participating in killing U.S. citizens is treason. I don't know what radical armed group you belong to, but just like Tim McVeigh found out you can't win. If that is the kind of group and people you want to associate with than that's a little kooky. Maybe you hate that women can vote. Maybe you hate that we have food inspection. I can't say what it is about our modern world you despise, but your plan to kill Americans will fail.

    ---------- Post added at 03:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Geez, SG, I think you're going to get a visit from the FBI before I do. I'm arguing theoretically. I suggest you make it clear that you are also.
    He has made himself very clear. Just saying phych at this point is meaningless.

  13. #52
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Geez, SG, I think you're going to get a visit from the FBI before I do. I'm arguing theoretically. I suggest you make it clear that you are also.
    I'm not talking in pure hypotheticals. There is a line, that once crossed, necessitates action, not words. I see that line being crossed in the near future...and honestly, I think that it needs to happen. Unchecked Progressive Liberalism is just going to continue running amok across the country, destroying our liberties, freedoms, and rights while seizing our property in order to "Make things more equal" by handing them out to supporters (leeches). That coupled with inevitable financial / economical collapse and the violation of our Constitutional guarantees only presents two choices:

    Submission or Revolt.

    That isn't a choice to me and many others.

    Luckily, when it does reach this point, and it will, we have an unbelievably massive physical advantage in terms of war waging ability and willingness. That I am extremely grateful for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Of course it is treason. Advocating and participating in killing U.S. citizens is treason.
    I'm quite sure that the British viewed what the Patriots did as treason too. That didn't hold or stop anything did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I don't know what radical armed group you belong to, but just like Tim McVeigh found out you can't win.
    McVeigh was a single person and a nut job. I'm talking about a uniformed, en mass armed rebellion. When that happens, I assure you, we will win. Your Progressive Liberal agenda will be crushed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Maybe you hate that women can vote. Maybe you hate that we have food inspection.
    LOL, that is the Mdougie we all have come to know and roll our eyes at. Nice Strawman....where have I ever, in 2 years, said anything of the sort? Assigned positions to me that are easier to attack is classic you and classic strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I can't say what it is about our modern world you despise, but your plan to kill Americans will fail.
    I dont really consider Progressive Liberals as Americans. I consider them leeches. Regardless, I'm not planning on killing anyone. I am planning on correcting this government problem. There are a lot of people that are. Any Progressive Liberals that develop a backbone (which would be rare) and want to stand in the way of that change, they will be dealt with as is necessary.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  14. #53
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Luckily, when it does reach this point, and it will, we have an unbelievably massive physical advantage in terms of war waging ability and willingness. That I am extremely grateful for.
    The strategic, physical, and war waging advantage will be with the government and loyal citizens against you terrorists like McVeigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I'm quite sure that the British viewed what the Patriots did as treason too. That didn't hold or stop anything did it?
    Well it is a much different country and world than back then. Right wing authoritarians will be destroyed in the future like they were in the civil war. You stand no chance to overthrow the government.



    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    McVeigh was a single person and a nut job. I'm talking about a uniformed, en mass armed rebellion. When that happens, I assure you, we will win. Your Progressive Liberal agenda will be crushed.
    No he was not alone. He had conspirators and belonged to a militia. If the rest of the militia wasn't cowards and turned they would be in prison too. Same will happen in the future. Blowhards who talk big about revolt will hide in their homes on D day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    LOL, that is the Mdougie we all have come to know and roll our eyes at. Nice Strawman....where have I ever, in 2 years, said anything of the sort? Assigned positions to me that are easier to attack is classic you and classic strawman.
    Most right wing authoritarians have the same few issues they harp on. Women and minorities should submit. Go back to traditional values they call it. Hatred for homosexuals and other forms of sexual expression not condoned in their bible. Forcing prayer in school. Oh wait they hate education. So keep people ignorant. Right wing authoritarians always say the same stuff.



    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    I dont really consider Progressive Liberals as Americans. I consider them leeches. Regardless, I'm not planning on killing anyone. I am planning on correcting this government problem. There are a lot of people that are. Any Progressive Liberals that develop a backbone (which would be rare) and want to stand in the way of that change, they will be dealt with as is necessary.
    So you already are afraid to stand up for your beliefs after you vocalized them earlier. Revolt is war. War means killing. You want to kill those who you consider non Americans. Or are you back tracking? or are you just revealing that you will sit behind a screen and complain, but will neither revolt nor participate in our actual peaceful process?

  15. #54
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    The strategic, physical, and war waging advantage will be with the government and loyal citizens against you terrorists like McVeigh.
    No. It will be loyal, patriotic Americans who have exhausted all avenues of fixing the problems that exist currently and others that will arise against you mindless Socialist, freeloaiding, leeching cowards. Oh yeah, part of that "loyal, patriotic Americans" will be the very ones, like myself, who took or will take, an oath to support and defend the Constitution against ALL ENEMIES, BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Progressive Liberalism is an enemy of the US Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Well it is a much different country and world than back then. Right wing authoritarians will be destroyed in the future like they were in the civil war. You stand no chance to overthrow the government.
    That's really the best argument you have? "It was a different world back then" LOL. Left Wing Progressives are a cancer to this society and they will be crushed. They stand absolutely no chance once things escalate...which happens soon, hopefully.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    Most right wing authoritarians have the same few issues they harp on. Women and minorities should submit. Go back to traditional values they call it. Hatred for homosexuals and other forms of sexual expression not condoned in their bible. Forcing prayer in school. Oh wait they hate education. So keep people ignorant. Right wing authoritarians always say the same stuff.
    The hell does that have anything to do with anything I have said? You can't just assign traits and opinions to people so it is easier to attack them. I support liberty, freedom, and rights for all people. I don't give a damn about those things you claim I am bigoted against. I'm not a Right Wing Authoritarian....and I dont give a damn about Social Conservationism. I care about my freedoms, rights, and liberties.

    How about you develop an intellectual backbone and quit pretending I have beliefs and opinions that I don't and debate me on the positions I actually have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    So you already are afraid to stand up for your beliefs after you vocalized them earlier. Revolt is war. War means killing. You want to kill those who you consider non Americans. Or are you back tracking? or are you just revealing that you will sit behind a screen and complain, but will neither revolt nor participate in our actual peaceful process?
    How the hell do you arrive to the conclusion that I am "afraid to stand up" for my beliefs? I am perfectly willing to engage in a peaceful process to change things in an acceptable way, but I dont see that as a possibility. I am also perfectly willing to put words aside and escalate this to a violent level when that time comes with the aim of forcing the changes that need to happen. If cowardly progressives decide to stand in the way of that, I would be more than willing to remove them from my path by any means necessary.

    I can't break that down any more than that.
    I will no longer be replying to any post from a Liberal going forward. I will continue, as normal, to discuss topics and engage in intellectual exchanges with non-leftist

  16. #55
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    No. It will be loyal, patriotic Americans who have exhausted all avenues of fixing the problems that exist currently and others that will arise against you mindless Socialist, freeloaiding, leeching cowards. Oh yeah, part of that "loyal, patriotic Americans" will be the very ones, like myself, who took or will take, an oath to support and defend the Constitution against ALL ENEMIES, BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Progressive Liberalism is an enemy of the US Constitution.



    That's really the best argument you have? "It was a different world back then" LOL. Left Wing Progressives are a cancer to this society and they will be crushed. They stand absolutely no chance once things escalate...which happens soon, hopefully.




    The hell does that have anything to do with anything I have said? You can't just assign traits and opinions to people so it is easier to attack them. I support liberty, freedom, and rights for all people. I don't give a damn about those things you claim I am bigoted against. I'm not a Right Wing Authoritarian....and I dont give a damn about Social Conservationism. I care about my freedoms, rights, and liberties.

    How about you develop an intellectual backbone and quit pretending I have beliefs and opinions that I don't and debate me on the positions I actually have.



    How the hell do you arrive to the conclusion that I am "afraid to stand up" for my beliefs? I am perfectly willing to engage in a peaceful process to change things in an acceptable way, but I dont see that as a possibility. I am also perfectly willing to put words aside and escalate this to a violent level when that time comes with the aim of forcing the changes that need to happen. If cowardly progressives decide to stand in the way of that, I would be more than willing to remove them from my path by any means necessary.

    I can't break that down any more than that.

    I get you are all bluster, but the government has been on to you violence obsessed right wing authoritarians for quite awhile now. They have been arming and training. Citizens will be loyal. You stand no chance. They know who you are, and who you are friends with. When you attempt violence you will be put down.

    ---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    No. It will be loyal, patriotic Americans who have exhausted all avenues of fixing the problems that exist currently and others that will arise against you mindless Socialist, freeloaiding, leeching cowards. Oh yeah, part of that "loyal, patriotic Americans" will be the very ones, like myself, who took or will take, an oath to support and defend the Constitution against ALL ENEMIES, BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Progressive Liberalism is an enemy of the US Constitution.



    That's really the best argument you have? "It was a different world back then" LOL. Left Wing Progressives are a cancer to this society and they will be crushed. They stand absolutely no chance once things escalate...which happens soon, hopefully.




    The hell does that have anything to do with anything I have said? You can't just assign traits and opinions to people so it is easier to attack them. I support liberty, freedom, and rights for all people. I don't give a damn about those things you claim I am bigoted against. I'm not a Right Wing Authoritarian....and I dont give a damn about Social Conservationism. I care about my freedoms, rights, and liberties.

    How about you develop an intellectual backbone and quit pretending I have beliefs and opinions that I don't and debate me on the positions I actually have.



    How the hell do you arrive to the conclusion that I am "afraid to stand up" for my beliefs? I am perfectly willing to engage in a peaceful process to change things in an acceptable way, but I dont see that as a possibility. I am also perfectly willing to put words aside and escalate this to a violent level when that time comes with the aim of forcing the changes that need to happen. If cowardly progressives decide to stand in the way of that, I would be more than willing to remove them from my path by any means necessary.

    I can't break that down any more than that.

    I get you are all bluster, but the government has been on to you violence obsessed right wing authoritarians for quite awhile now. They have been preparing and training. Citizens will be loyal. You stand no chance. They know who you are, and who you are friends with. When you attempt violence you will be put down.

  17. #56
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Let's wait and see how fast all this armed rebellion crap disappears when there's a repbulican in the white house.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #57
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I agree with the ideals. However, the pledge is not to ideals, but rather to the country and government. It does not read "I pledge allegiance to the ideals of...". It is clearly a pledge to the flag of the United States of America, a country, which is a republic currently, but not guaranteed to stay that way.
    Nothing in this world created by man is "guaranteed to stay that way". There is nothing in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence or in the philosophy of our Founding Fathers as laid out in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers leading up to the ratification of our Constitution that would cause me not to pledge allegiance to their cause, their philosophy of governance, or the government they formed, and that is what I pledge allegiance to when I recite the pledge of allegiance.

    I do not pledge allegiance to every law Congress has ever passed, or the President has ever signed into law, or the ever burgeoning federal bureaucracy has ever distorted by its transformation of those laws into a myriad of regulations and then enforcing and adjudicating them, or to every interpretation of the Constitution the Supreme Court justices have appealed to in making its (sometimes bizarre) rulings.

    But let me end this by saying, were what you are focusing on here what I was focused on when I went to say the pledge of allegiance, I wouldn't say it either, because I do not pledge allegiance to any branch of the federal government, or to any action taken by them. Rather, I obey under duress those actions with which I do not agree in the hope that in the conflict between what I believe is wise and what is done in the name of the majority by the federal government, I am wrong.

    Lately it seems that the number of times the federal government has acted without the consent of the majority of Americans (as judged by the polls) has grown exponentially, and now we face a situation where an out of control president has declared his intent to unilaterally circumvent our Constitution, and rule by fiat. Further, it is becoming more clear every day that our federal government lacks either the will or the authority to restrain his megalomania.

    For the first time, so far as I know, organs of our national government, organs, whose only excuse for existence is as aids in the governance by the people for the GENERAL welfare of ALL Americans, are being used against some of them to silence their loyal opposition to the policies of the current Administration, and where it can't be silenced effectively, to re-structure our national government in a way that makes that opposition ineffective at best, and eradicates it altogether where possible. This is a crossing of the Rubicon for me, a direct attack on our very system of government, not just the use of it to establish unwise policies, and as such, a signal to me just voting may no longer fulfill my obligation to my country as a loyal citizen.

  19. #58
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    Nothing in this world created by man is "guaranteed to stay that way". There is nothing in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence or in the philosophy of our Founding Fathers as laid out in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers leading up to the ratification of our Constitution that would cause me not to pledge allegiance to their cause, their philosophy of governance, or the government they formed, and that is what I pledge allegiance to when I recite the pledge of allegiance.

    I do not pledge allegiance to every law Congress has ever passed, or the President has ever signed into law, or the ever burgeoning federal bureaucracy has ever distorted by its transformation of those laws into a myriad of regulations and then enforcing and adjudicating them, or to every interpretation of the Constitution the Supreme Court justices have appealed to in making its (sometimes bizarre) rulings.

    But let me end this by saying, were what you are focusing on here what I was focused on when I went to say the pledge of allegiance, I wouldn't say it either, because I do not pledge allegiance to any branch of the federal government, or to any action taken by them. Rather, I obey under duress those actions with which I do not agree in the hope that in the conflict between what I believe is wise and what is done in the name of the majority by the federal government, I am wrong.

    Lately it seems that the number of times the federal government has acted without the consent of the majority of Americans (as judged by the polls) has grown exponentially, and now we face a situation where an out of control president has declared his intent to unilaterally circumvent our Constitution, and rule by fiat. Further, it is becoming more clear every day that our federal government lacks either the will or the authority to restrain his megalomania.

    For the first time, so far as I know, organs of our national government, organs, whose only excuse for existence is as aids in the governance by the people for the GENERAL welfare of ALL Americans, are being used against some of them to silence their loyal opposition to the policies of the current Administration, and where it can't be silenced effectively, to re-structure our national government in a way that makes that opposition ineffective at best, and eradicates it altogether where possible. This is a crossing of the Rubicon for me, a direct attack on our very system of government, not just the use of it to establish unwise policies, and as such, a signal to me just voting may no longer fulfill my obligation to my country as a loyal citizen.
    I would just point out that all these firsts. Which honestly have been happening for a very long time as far as I can tell, are being noticed under the first black President.

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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Let's wait and see how fast all this armed rebellion crap disappears when there's a repbulican in the white house.
    What makes you think there will be another Republican in the White House?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    What makes you think there will be another Republican in the White House?
    You'll find some flim-flam way just like when George the younger got in, then circle the wagons and defend every single blunder he made.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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