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  1. #101
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I understand what you're driving at. But your own source USFlag.org plainly states that the colors had no meaning when the flag was adopted
    What you mean is that no formal meaning was ascribed to the colors when the flag was initially adopted (I agree, and I think stated as much earlier). That is slightly different than saying they had no meaning, which would be a positive statement denying any relationship rather than simply a lack of any relationship offered.

    My argument on this earlier was that this is largely an artifact of the way legislation was written in the early days of the Republic. Rather than long intros and complex legal jargon, bills were very simple and to the point. A good analogy is the seal I mentioned earlier. There is no doubt the colors in it had a meaning that was known to the legislature when the bill was passed establishing the seal. The designer of the seal had a specific set of values in mind as he made it and announced it. Yet no language is found in the bill establishing the seal.


    Side note: I am only arguing a small, aside technicality imo. The pledge doesn't mention allegiance to the flag's values, but to the flag itself and to the government it represents.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #102
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    What you mean is that no formal meaning was ascribed to the colors when the flag was initially adopted (I agree, and I think stated as much earlier). That is slightly different than saying they had no meaning, which would be a positive statement denying any relationship rather than simply a lack of any relationship offered.
    Okay, got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    My argument on this earlier was that this is largely an artifact of the way legislation was written in the early days of the Republic. Rather than long intros and complex legal jargon, bills were very simple and to the point. A good analogy is the seal I mentioned earlier. There is no doubt the colors in it had a meaning that was known to the legislature when the bill was passed establishing the seal. The designer of the seal had a specific set of values in mind as he made it and announced it. Yet no language is found in the bill establishing the seal.
    I better understand. Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Side note: I am only arguing a small, aside technicality imo. The pledge doesn't mention allegiance to the flag's values, but to the flag itself and to the government it represents.
    Alright. I thought you might be leading up to an argument that those pledging allegiance were doing so to values inherent in the flag's design. I've got no argument with the general positions you've taken.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #103
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Alright. I thought you might be leading up to an argument that those pledging allegiance were doing so to values inherent in the flag's design. I've got no argument with the general positions you've taken.
    Someone might be taking that pledge when the say the pledge of allegiance, but that would be more a function of them than of the text imo. Someone making the claim that the pledge of allegiance is about those values has two very difficult hurdles to cross.

    1) They would need to argue that it is solely about those values since its containing of other allegiances could still be objected to.

    2) There is no text to that effect anywhere. The text of the pledge is extremely specific and references only the flag itself and the government, not the values they are founded on or the ideals they strive for.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. Thanks evensaul thanked for this post
  5. #104
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Robin Williams seemed to have a good approach about the American flag.

    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  6. #105
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    I think the Boy Scouts have a nice translation for each part of the Pledge of Allegiance.

    I pledge allegiance… you promise to be loyal

    to the Flag… to the symbol of your country

    of the United States of America… a nation of 50 states and several territories, each with certain rights of its own

    and to the Republic… a country where the people elect representatives from among themselves to make laws for everyone

    for which it stands,… the flag represents the values of our form of government, in which everyone is equal under the law

    one Nation under God,… a country formed under God whose people are free to believe as they wish

    indivisible,… the nation cannot be split into parts

    with liberty and justice… with freedom and a system of law

    for all… for every person in the nation, regardless of their differences


    http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/m...egiance-means/

    The old-time comedian Red Skelton also had a nice translation of the pledge:
    Brilliant!

  7. #106
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Robin Williams seemed to have a good approach about the American flag.

    Love It!

  8. #107
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Someone might be taking that pledge when the say the pledge of allegiance, but that would be more a function of them than of the text imo. Someone making the claim that the pledge of allegiance is about those values has two very difficult hurdles to cross.

    1) They would need to argue that it is solely about those values since its containing of other allegiances could still be objected to.

    2) There is no text to that effect anywhere. The text of the pledge is extremely specific and references only the flag itself and the government, not the values they are founded on or the ideals they strive for.
    Exactly right.

    I've revisited this post because I saw someone browsing it, and noticed that I never thanked you for that summation.

    There have been no effective rebuttals of the op and my subsequent arguments. The op stands.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

 

 
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