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  1. #61
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You'll find some flim-flam way just like when George the younger got in, then circle the wagons and defend every single blunder he made.
    I doubt it. After the mid-term elections, Obama and the idiot Republican leadership will agree on a path to citizenship for the 12 million illegal aliens, who will vote 80% democrat. That, combined with the fact that white Americans will likely vote increasingly democrat as the baby boomers become seniors and will be more susceptible to social security scare tactics, suggests that there may never be another Republican elected President.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #62
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Someguy View Post
    Unchecked Progressive Liberalism is just going to continue running amok across the country, destroying our liberties, freedoms, and rights while seizing our property in order to "Make things more equal" by handing them out to supporters (leeches). That coupled with inevitable financial / economical collapse and the violation of our Constitutional guarantees only presents two choices:

    Submission or Revolt.

    That isn't a choice to me and many others.
    I agree, there's probably other options. Why are those the only two choices? Why isn't checking progressive liberalism a choice?

    Luckily, when it does reach this point, and it will,
    What point? Do you mean the point that the hatred of progressive liberalism by some people will bring them to the feet of the object that they hate?
    Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why isn't checking progressive liberalism a choice?
    And if that fails?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  4. #64
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    allegiance
    Syllabification: al·le·giance
    Pronunciation: /əˈlējəns

    /
    noun

    loyalty or commitment of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    We as a nation believe in government of the people, by the people, for the people. The government of The United States of America is not superior to the People. The People are not subordinate to the government. We do not owe the government or the flag our allegiance.

    I do not pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And neither should you.



    There is an inherent flaw in this argument. You seem to be making the case that America is a nation for democracy, and as you said, "for the people". But you failed to define or give the scope of that statement. By that logic, us Americans should feel free to murder people in the streets, pillage towns, or storm the White House. If we needn't give America our allegiance, then we also must be free to violate every law or commit treason whenever the mood strikes.
    Although you clearly got a dictionary definition of the word allegiance, I don't think you really fully understand what it means in this context. Allegiance doesn't mean you are wholly submitting yourself to the power of superiors. It simply means you are giving certain authority or even just some respect. Pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States is how we keep our nation unified. If every person felt like they didn't have to be loyal to their country, then it really wouldn't be much of a country. It would be a cluster of people each living independently according to their own whims.
    Additionally, you said that the people are not subordinate to the government, hence we should not give it our allegiance. But i think that is an erroneous statement that contradicts the rest of your ideas. We as individuals ARE subordinate to the government, because the government was built on the ideas of many individual people. No one person can be superior to the government which was built by many, because the Constitution and the American government is more than just the sum of it's parts. It is the very foundation of our country. Its importance is undeniable, and its impact on the world revolutionary, which is more than can be said for most individuals.
    Another issue with your post is that you are proposing that people stop saying the Pledge of Allegiance because it supposedly contradicts with the values of the American government. However, by essentially proposing that Americans reject a core part of our culture, you are creating a much bigger conflict than the Pledge ever induced.

    I DO pledge allegiance to the flag of my country. And you should too.

  5. #65
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And if that fails?
    Whatever fails just teaches us one way that doesn't work for a particular circumstance (issue). If something we try fails, we should learn from it and then try something else.



    Failures are finger posts on the road to achievement. -- C. S. Lewis
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  6. #66
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by as1111 View Post
    There is an inherent flaw in this argument. You seem to be making the case that America is a nation for democracy, and as you said, "for the people". But you failed to define or give the scope of that statement. By that logic, us Americans should feel free to murder people in the streets, pillage towns, or storm the White House. If we needn't give America our allegiance, then we also must be free to violate every law or commit treason whenever the mood strikes.
    Although you clearly got a dictionary definition of the word allegiance, I don't think you really fully understand what it means in this context. Allegiance doesn't mean you are wholly submitting yourself to the power of superiors. It simply means you are giving certain authority or even just some respect. Pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States is how we keep our nation unified. If every person felt like they didn't have to be loyal to their country, then it really wouldn't be much of a country. It would be a cluster of people each living independently according to their own whims.
    Additionally, you said that the people are not subordinate to the government, hence we should not give it our allegiance. But i think that is an erroneous statement that contradicts the rest of your ideas. We as individuals ARE subordinate to the government, because the government was built on the ideas of many individual people. No one person can be superior to the government which was built by many, because the Constitution and the American government is more than just the sum of it's parts. It is the very foundation of our country. Its importance is undeniable, and its impact on the world revolutionary, which is more than can be said for most individuals.
    Another issue with your post is that you are proposing that people stop saying the Pledge of Allegiance because it supposedly contradicts with the values of the American government. However, by essentially proposing that Americans reject a core part of our culture, you are creating a much bigger conflict than the Pledge ever induced.

    I DO pledge allegiance to the flag of my country. And you should too.


    Let me start off by saying that I fully agree that the Pledge of Allegiance is an appropriate action in American life. However, a couple things about your argument against evensaul:

    First, you tried to ease evensaul's concern with pledging subordination to the government. However, in his dictionary definition of allegiance it is made clear that allegiance CAN mean a relationship of superior and subordinate, OR can simply signify commitment to a cause. In the case of the Pledge of Allegiance, no one is saying they are an insignificant speck and wholly powerless in the face of the much more powerful and dominating government. The Pledge of Allegiance is exactly what it claims to be: a statement of commitment to a cause- in this case to the flag and to the republic for which it stands. You should have focused on this flaw in evensaul's argument. There is clearly another implication of the word allegiance that he did not focus on. And no one is talking about citizens being subordinate to the government, rather referencing the flag and the republic- symbols of the country of which we are citizens.

    I also would not have gone into the realm of the argument into which you ventured- admitting that we are in fact subordinate to the government. That question has been raging since the early days of Federalists and Anti-Federalists, the Nullification Crisis of the 1830s, and some of the issues of secession before the Civil War. Although the question has been manifested in different contexts, the overall debate is still one regarding which different people have fundamental differences of opinion. You used a little bit of pathos to emphasize the government's superiority to its inferior citizenry- "Its importance is undeniable, and its impact on the world revolutionary, which is more than can be said for most individuals," without much concrete evidence. If you are admitting that people are subordinate to the government, what is the meaning of the first half of your argument, that the Pledge of Allegiance is not about subordination? Are you saying that we are in fact subordinate, but that is not what the Pledge is about, but if it were then that would be okay because we are subordinate to begin with?

    My opinion would simply be that whether we are subordinate to the government or not is a separate conversation. The fact of the matter is that the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't have much to do with this question because the Pledge is about unifying Americans around a greater cause.

  7. #67
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    And no one is talking about citizens being subordinate to the government, rather referencing the flag and the republic- symbols of the country of which we are citizens.
    You're 2/3 wrong here. You're correct that the flag is a symbol, but a Republic is a representative form of government, not a symbol. The flag is a symbol of "the Republic" - the United States of America, not republics generally or the idea of representative government. And I am stating that citizens are not and should not pledge to be subordinate to the government of the United States of America.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    My opinion would simply be that whether we are subordinate to the government or not is a separate conversation.
    Well, it's the whole point of my op - that citizens are not and should not be subordinate to the government, and should therefore not pledge allegiance to the flag and the government. So I don't understand why it should be a separate conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    The fact of the matter is that the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't have much to do with this question because the Pledge is about unifying Americans around a greater cause.
    Support this claim as "fact".
    Last edited by evensaul; June 3rd, 2014 at 12:05 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  9. #68
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    allegiance
    Syllabification: al·le·giance
    Pronunciation: /əˈlējəns

    /
    noun

    loyalty or commitment of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    We as a nation believe in government of the people, by the people, for the people. The government of The United States of America is not superior to the People. The People are not subordinate to the government. We do not owe the government or the flag our allegiance.

    I do not pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And neither should you.

    Here's one thing I have been contemplating. What does the government do to work for the people?
    Considering the pledge of allegiance was created by a socialist, I surely will not pledge allegiance to the flag.
    Nor to the government which has become nothing short of tyrannical, IMO.

    The government is supposed to work for the people, well I can't think of one positive thing they've done.
    Therefore, a government that has no interest in serving the people it is governing does not deserve allegiance.
    Nationalism is a disease.

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  11. #69
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You're 2/3 wrong here. You're correct that the flag is a symbol, but a Republic is a representative form of government, not a symbol. The flag is a symbol of "the Republic" - the United States of America, not republics generally or the idea of representative government. And I am stating that citizens are not and should not pledge to be subordinate to the government of the United States of America.

    Well, it's the whole point of my op - that citizens are not and should not be subordinate to the government, and should therefore not pledge allegiance to the flag and the government. So I don't understand why it should be a separate conversation.

    Support this claim as "fact".

    Your own dictionary definition of "allegiance" does not describe allegiance as subordination to something larger to the exclusion of the other definition- loyalty to the cause. If you are in fact suggesting that when you say the Pledge you feel as if there is an overbearing and tyrannical government pinning you into some sort of theoretical corner wherein you are powerless against its invasions and transgressions, it is within your right to do so. However, the language of the Pledge of Allegiance makes it clear, as I stated in my previous post, that the recitation of the pledge means allegiance to, first and foremost, the flag. Then, and only then, to the republic for which the flag stands. If you are saying that saying the pledge makes you feel subordinate to a flag, that is a separate discussion to be had in another forum. Moreover, there is no one putting a gun to your head and forcing you to swear anything. Therefore, it is irrational to think that by making the Pledge of Allegiance you are pledging away your free will or legal rights. Allegiance simply means loyalty and commitment to the cause, which the language of the Pledge makes it clear is the flag and the republic for which it stands- symbols of American pride.

    In fact, I know that the Pledge of Allegiance is about unifying Americans around a greater cause because of the language in the second half of the pledge. "One nation," "indivisible," and "with liberty and justice for all." I don't know about you but to me that sounds like a statement of national unity, pride, and freedom rather than subordination, restriction, and oppression.

    Thus, I repeat that the question of whether Americans are in fact subordinate to their government is a separate conversation because the Pledge of Allegiance against which you protest does not connote subordination.

  12. #70
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    Your own dictionary definition of "allegiance" does not describe allegiance as subordination to something larger to the exclusion of the other definition- loyalty to the cause.
    The Pledge itself excludes that definition by requiring subordination to a flag which symbolizes "the Republic" (the government), and not some abstract cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    Allegiance simply means loyalty and commitment to the cause, which the language of the Pledge makes it clear is the flag and the republic for which it stands- symbols of American pride.
    You are creating an interpretation that is not supported by the actual text of the Pledge. The text makes it clear ("and to the Republic for which it stands") that the flag represents a country, as national flags do. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_flag) National flags do not represent causes. If you think the they do, then you need to supply more support than your own personal opinion, and explain how that support outweighs the commonly understood purpose and meaning of national flags.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    In fact, I know that the Pledge of Allegiance is about unifying Americans around a greater cause because of the language in the second half of the pledge. "One nation," "indivisible," and "with liberty and justice for all." I don't know about you but to me that sounds like a statement of national unity, pride, and freedom rather than subordination, restriction, and oppression.
    Those phrases modify the noun, Republic, which the flag represents. They are not the subjects of the sentence, and are not represented by the flag. Furthermore, those who cherish liberty should reject the idea of "One nation, indivisible" as potentially reinforcing tyranny. Our country was born out of the the splitting of a nation when grievances went unaddressed and division became the only recourse. Such a day may come again. Throwing off oppressive government through rebellion and division, rejecting "one nation, indivisible", may one day be the only way to preserve our liberties. We should not give up that natural right of men by swearing loyalty to our government or some fictitious cause.
    Last edited by evensaul; June 6th, 2014 at 07:04 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  13. #71
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The Pledge itself excludes that definition by requiring subordination to a flag which symbolizes "the Republic" (the government), and not some abstract cause.

    You are creating an interpretation that is not supported by the actual text of the Pledge. The text makes it clear ("and to the Republic for which it stands") that the flag represents a country, as national flags do. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_flag) National flags do not represent causes. If you think the they do, then you need to supply more support than your own personal opinion, and explain how that support outweighs the commonly understood purpose and meaning of national flags.

    Those phrases modify the noun, Republic, which the flag represents. They are not the subjects of the sentence, and are not represented by the flag. Furthermore, those who cherish liberty should reject the idea of "One nation, indivisible" as potentially reinforcing tyranny. Our country was born out of the the splitting of a nation when grievances went unaddressed and division became the only recourse. Such a day may come again. Throwing off oppressive government through rebellion and division, rejecting "one nation, indivisible", may one day be the only way to preserve our liberties. We should not give up that natural right of men by swearing loyalty to our government or some fictitious cause.

    Your original argument was centered around the dictionary definition of allegiance. I have shown that the dictionary defines allegiance as loyalty to the cause. You can't just say that the allegiance in the Pledge means subordination because the Pledge requires subordination. That is circular logic. On the contrary, I have shown that the language of the Pledge means unification around the cause through the language it uses. Obviously the flag represents the country- that is the source of the pride derived from the Pledge. (As a side point, I wouldn't use the wikipedia definition off of which to base an argument, but reading the page it seems that national flags symbolize countries.) National flags are supposed to be a source of pride in one's country and symbolizes the values of that country. That is the commonly understood purpose and meaning of national flags.
    As a side-note: I stated before that because the Pledge of Allegiance is not about subordination, it is irrelevant to this discussion if the role of the federal government is above that of its citizens. However, if you are so hung up on the Pledge meaning subordination that you cannot see the inherently positive value in the Pledge, there are countries on this planet where the nature of the government's relationship to citizens is so drastically different from that in the U S of A that you might find yourself more comfortable there.

  14. #72
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    National flags are supposed to be a source of pride in one's country and symbolizes the values of that country. That is the commonly understood purpose and meaning of national flags.
    Support this claim.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  16. #73
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Support this claim.
    "National flags are supposed to be a source of pride in one's country and symbolizes the values of that country. That is the commonly understood purpose and meaning of national flags." - Senior Junior

    Evensaul, pride and values of the United States, like unauthorized drone strikes, police brutality, taxation, throwing people in jail for victimless crimes and waging a war on a plant. I'm so proud.

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  18. #74
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Support this claim.
    I don't have a source from wikipedia or otherwise about the way people are supposed to feel when they recite the pledge. All I can point out is that the language of the Pledge of Allegiance does not connote a feeling of subordination to the flag, but rather aims to instill pride in that flag- as displayed through the language of the pledge- which, by the way, includes a dichotomy of "indivisibility" with simultaneous "liberty and justice for all." The U.S. is a combination of these two factors.
    However, I repeat: If the language of the pledge makes you uncomfortable, or subordinate to the government, there is no one forcing you to recite it. But to say that no one should say it because of the meaning you find in it, is not fair. There is a definition of allegiance, in your own dictionary definition, that does not make the Pledge of Allegiance threatening or overbearing. The Pledge of Allegiance means loyalty and commitment to the cause- the values of the United States. How the pledge accomplishes this is by linking the flag to the values the citizens are pledging allegiance to: a strong republic with liberty and justice for all.

    ---------- Post added at 01:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Support this claim.
    Whether or not you like it, the flag is the symbol we are referencing when making the pledge of allegiance. Flags can and do have meanings beyond representing a country. If flags were simply designed to identify the country we are referencing, we would all be holding pieces of cloth reading AMERICA in bold print and then all over the world there would be black and white pieces of paper with the names of countries printed in different nations' native languages. Clearly the design and layout of the flag has something to do with the values the country holds and wants its citizens to identify with. For example, the flag of the United States has the stars to represent the states and the stripes to represent the original 13 colonies (and, by the way, the flag has changed to reflect new values and developments in U.S. history). The South African flag contains some colors that come from Nelson Mandela's party, because South Africa wants those values enshrined on the flag. The Y shape in the flag has to do with the different merging cultures in the nation. Clearly, nations use the flag as symbols of their value.

    For the U.S. to do the same and the Pledge of Allegiance to make use of this to unify Americans behind their cause is not unheard of, nor is it an attempt at tricking anyone into subordination.

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  20. #75
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post

    Those phrases modify the noun, Republic, which the flag represents. They are not the subjects of the sentence, and are not represented by the flag. Furthermore, those who cherish liberty should reject the idea of "One nation, indivisible" as potentially reinforcing tyranny. Our country was born out of the the splitting of a nation when grievances went unaddressed and division became the only recourse. Such a day may come again. Throwing off oppressive government through rebellion and division, rejecting "one nation, indivisible", may one day be the only way to preserve our liberties. We should not give up that natural right of men by swearing loyalty to our government or some fictitious cause.
    It is unfair for you to remove a quote from the Pledge from its context and thus manipulate it to satisfy your needs and opinions. Yes, the Pledge does support an "indivisible" country, but it then continues with the words "with liberty and justice for all." That in it of itself makes the American "Republic" different from the British regime in colonial America. America was not born due to an excessive amount of liberty and justice, in fact I'm sure it was quite the opposite. America was born out of the oppression our countrymen faced by the British crown. So I think your statement that our Pledge of Allegiance is a precursor to an oppressive government is unfounded.
    Additionally, our government GIVES us our "natural right{s} of men" in the Bill of Rights. You write as if we are living in a corrupt tyrannical society under a dictator. There is nothing wrong with being loyal to a country that gives us all the freedoms we need to live our lives in the way we desire.

  21. #76
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    For example, the flag of the United States has the stars to represent the states and the stripes to represent the original 13 colonies (and, by the way, the flag has changed to reflect new values and developments in U.S.
    Those are facts, not values, and they do not represent a cause. I think you'll find that most national flags contain symbols and colors representing facts and historical information about the country. They do not generally contain symbols representing values or causes to which the citizens are expected to pledge loyalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    The South African flag contains some colors that come from Nelson Mandela's party, because South Africa wants those values enshrined on the flag. The Y shape in the flag has to do with the different merging cultures in the nation. Clearly, nations use the flag as symbols of their value.
    Rubbish. The South African government does not offer such a description or interpretation of the flag. What you are parroting has been fabricated by various people over the years, and has no basis in fact.

    ---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by as1111 View Post
    Additionally, our government GIVES us our "natural right{s} of men" in the Bill of Rights.
    No, no, NO. Rights do NOT come from government. It does NOT "give" them. The government exists to protect the natural rights of men. It is important to understand the difference. Do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by as1111 View Post
    You write as if we are living in a corrupt tyrannical society under a dictator. There is nothing wrong with being loyal to a country that gives us all the freedoms we need to live our lives in the way we desire.
    And when men believe the United States no longer protects liberty and justice for all, and never will again? What then? Should they continue pledging allegiance to the flag?
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  22. #77
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Those are facts, not values, and they do not represent a cause. I think you'll find that most national flags contain symbols and colors representing facts and historical information about the country. They do not generally contain symbols representing values or causes to which the citizens are expected to pledge loyalty.

    Rubbish. The South African government does not offer such a description or interpretation of the flag. What you are parroting has been fabricated by various people over the years, and has no basis in fact.

    ---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

    No, no, NO. Rights do NOT come from government. It does NOT "give" them. The government exists to protect the natural rights of men. It is important to understand the difference. Do you?

    And when men believe the United States no longer protects liberty and justice for all, and never will again? What then? Should they continue pledging allegiance to the flag?

    I'm going to trust http://www.sahistory.org.za/national-flag . And about the United States- you haven't addressed my underlying point. If there were no meaning associated with the flag or symbolism that the country believes in, why wouldn't we all just be walking around with flags saying "America"? Clearly, as per my original statement, national flags have meanings and are designed as pride. We call ours "Old Glory." We add meaning to it by lowering it and raising it, as appropriate. And we pledge allegiance to it, as American citizens should, in order to show our loyalty and commitment to the cause-- in this case, our republic composed of elements of the Union and individual states. When we "rally around the flag," we adhere to what the flag stands for.

    The Pledge of Allegiance is using the flag as a symbol of the values Americans believe in. We are pledging commitment to those values.

  23. #78
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post


    ---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------



    And when men believe the United States no longer protects liberty and justice for all, and never will again? What then? Should they continue pledging allegiance to the flag?
    It is illogical to deal with hypothetical situations rather than concrete reality. The reality is that America is a country of freedom and democracy for its citizens. We have natural rights to be thankful for (whether or not America GIVES them to us or not) and a government that is very conscious of the people, as it IS as you previously said, a government by the people for the people.
    It makes no sense to say that you wont Pledge allegiance to America on the off-chance that at some point in the future, you wont be in agreement with American values. THAT is rubbish.

  24. #79
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    Okay, let's examine the relevant text from that site:

    "individual colours, or colour combinations have different meanings for different people and therefore no universal symbolism should be attached to any of the colours. The central design of the flag, beginning at the flagpost in a "V" form and flowing into a single horizontal band to the outer edge of the fly, can be interpreted as the convergence of diverse elements within South African society, taking the road ahead in unity. "

    It says the design "can be interpreted as". It doesn't say "should be". It doesn't say "was designed to represent". It says "can be", so maybe some dumbass writing for a magazine or his own blog came up with that idea, and some others went along with it. You have nothing official, or even slightly compelling to support your claim that national flags "are supposed to be a source of pride in one's country and symbolizes the values of that country". So it can be disregarded until you offer substantive support.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    And about the United States- you haven't addressed my underlying point. If there were no meaning associated with the flag or symbolism that the country believes in, why wouldn't we all just be walking around with flags saying "America"?
    Yes, I have. I said we should not pledge loyalty to the idea of an indivisible country.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    Clearly, as per my original statement, national flags have meanings and are designed as pride.
    A statement that is still unsupported.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    We call ours "Old Glory." We add meaning to it by lowering it and raising it, as appropriate. And we pledge allegiance to it, as American citizens should, in order to show our loyalty and commitment to the cause-- in this case, our republic composed of elements of the Union and individual states. When we "rally around the flag," we adhere to what the flag stands for.
    For what you imagine that it stands for. Show me an official statement from the US Government on what causes or values are represented in the flag. Do you think Muslims in Iran have the same opinion on the meaning of the US flag that you do? If not, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJunior15 View Post
    The Pledge of Allegiance is using the flag as a symbol of the values Americans believe in. We are pledging commitment to those values.
    Really? You seriously think that all Americans are in agreement on those supposed values represented by the flag? Support the claim that all, or even a majority of Americans, agree with your idea of the values represented in the flag.

    ---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by as1111 View Post
    It makes no sense to say that you wont Pledge allegiance to America on the off-chance that at some point in the future, you wont be in agreement with American values.
    It makes no sense to pledge allegiance to a government. We do not exist to serve the government. The government exists to serve us by protecting our rights. Too many people don't understand that, and you are obviously one of them.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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  26. #80
    SeniorJunior15
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    Re: Do Not Pledge Allegiance To The Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Okay, let's examine the relevant text from that site:

    "individual colours, or colour combinations have different meanings for different people and therefore no universal symbolism should be attached to any of the colours. The central design of the flag, beginning at the flagpost in a "V" form and flowing into a single horizontal band to the outer edge of the fly, can be interpreted as the convergence of diverse elements within South African society, taking the road ahead in unity. "

    It says the design "can be interpreted as". It doesn't say "should be". It doesn't say "was designed to represent". It says "can be", so maybe some dumbass writing for a magazine or his own blog came up with that idea, and some others went along with it. You have nothing official, or even slightly compelling to support your claim that national flags "are supposed to be a source of pride in one's country and symbolizes the values of that country". So it can be disregarded until you offer substantive support.

    Yes, I have. I said we should not pledge loyalty to the idea of an indivisible country.

    A statement that is still unsupported.

    For what you imagine that it stands for. Show me an official statement from the US Government on what causes or values are represented in the flag. Do you think Muslims in Iran have the same opinion on the meaning of the US flag that you do? If not, why not?

    Really? You seriously think that all Americans are in agreement on those supposed values represented by the flag? Support the claim that all, or even a majority of Americans, agree with your idea of the values represented in the flag.

    ---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------


    It makes no sense to pledge allegiance to a government. We do not exist to serve the government. The government exists to serve us by protecting our rights. Too many people don't understand that, and you are obviously one of them.


    I don't know why you think that because you don't find meaning in the American flag someone who finds meaning in the South African flag is a "dumbass." That claim is hurtful and inappropriate in a forum like this.
    We could continue arguing about whether the website says "can be" or "is," among other grammatical minutiae, but I think we both know this is a meaningless tangent that is distracting from the underlying point: whether or not the language of the Pledge of Allegiance necessitates pledging subordination to the government.
    Moreover, you are using circular logic again. In order to refute me, and as11, you are saying that we are wrong because we should not have to pledge subordination to a government.
    And no, you have not addressed my point about the American flag. I said the flag contains the ideas of the Union of states that combine to form the nation we live in. Saying we should not pledge loyalty to the idea of an indivisible country does not address the fact that the ideas in our flag prove that the flag carries meaning beyond just identifying which country we are from. Kindly stop pretending that any of these arguments are worthless unless they confirm your preconceived opinion.

 

 
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