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  1. #21
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    I would posit there's one of two possibilities. Either there's evidence for a soul, and out of body experiences are the soul drifting from the body. OR, while unconscious, the body continues to receive information (sounds, smells, etc) and creates a mental image of that information and OOBEs are just another form of lucid dreaming.

    Edited to add: I didn't read the link. I glanced at the picture and decided to spitball a response with pretty much nothing to go on.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    It is possible. But in my mind not likely enough for me to abandon materialism.
    I don’t think materialism needs to be abandoned in order to consider that just because our laws are incomplete that it may not be primary. The equation of physical life requires it. The underlining issue here is: There's more to existence than just physical life.

    Lets say you love your wife. One day you have a spike go through your head and now your wife is a stranger. Not only that but your personality has changed. Sounds to me like that spike knocked out the part of your brain that controlled your memories/love for your wife as well as parts of your personality.
    Are you saying people who have amnesia lose their subjective feelings? If they lose their memory of someone in their current life, why can’t they begin to love someone else?

    And as far as your scenario what about the person who has irreversible dementia or severe mental illness for years and years and moments before they die they become perfectly lucid, they start recognizing family members, they start talking coherently and they lose their delusions. That’s not suppose to happen.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_qBIw7qyHU

    I am going to assume that you do not mean grater than (>).
    I’ll clarify a bit more.

    M = Soul
    M → A version of energy that we have yet to fully understand.
    M → Invisible to the naked eye. (Though this does not mean there are no instruments that can detect it.)
    M → Transcends the physical. (M is not bound or restricted to the physical body. It can go beyond it.)
    M → Is not subject to physical laws (Physical laws that we understand. And laws that we don’t yet understand, M may or may not be affected by them; to be determined.
    M → Has some type of awareness, yet to be fully understood. (In the OP experiment, M is aware of the numbers. It has knowledge; is cognizant of the numbers. M knows the numbers. In many OBE experiences, M is aware it is floating above the body and it is aware of its environment.
    M → Can observe and experience (As M is floating over the body, M can observe and experience its environment)
    M → Interacts with the physical form
    M → We don't know all the properties of M. (The ones listed are tentative for the purpose of debate and to discuss the concept of something that is not materially based but yet interacts with the physical body.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  3. #23
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    That sounds like an awful lot to assume. Memory is even more complex than sensory impressions. You don't see how far fetched this is?

    Yeah, I think we're looking for more certainty in these counter arguments than "it could be". I thought it was the theist and the soul proponent who was supposed to grasp for straws, eh?

    If it were a genetic abnormality then why is it considered fairly normal to have NDE's? Overall, in this post, it seems like you're really "blunting the razor" here, so to speak.
    Given the topic, what do you expect? There isn't much more than straws to go on when it comes to this stuff.

    ---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    I would call the 1 in 59,000 chance of guessing the correct number a "flaw", if we're going to be using the results to say OBEs are real. Why not have her report her own social security number, which would make the chances of her guessing it correctly 1 in 430 million plus?
    That occurred to me as well and I totally agree. He could have just done 59,000 experiments and reported one. A larger number would certainly make the results more impressive.

    Is that particularly important? I mean, if you were one day levitated up into an alien spacecraft for an afternoon, then returned to your point of origin, would it be particularly important to your new belief that alien spacecrafts have visited earth that you couldn't imagine how they'd managed to do it?
    Very much so. I want that power too and in order to get it I have to imagine how they did it and then do it myself. The fact that aliens have visited Earth is piratically irrelevant compared to the question of how exactly their ship functions.

    If the experiment is credible, which is to say if it can be or has been repeated by other researchers with the same or similar results, then it gives us solid evidence that cognition is not equivalent to brain states, and therefore settles the current brain/mind controversy in favor of the non-biological nature of mind, until equally compelling evidence to the contrary is found.
    Well this is kind of like the question of what is light. Is it a wave or a particle? We have evidence for both so maybe it is both. Couldn't cognition be a result of brain states as well as ... something?
    abc

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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Given the topic, what do you expect? There isn't much more than straws to go on when it comes to this stuff.
    Where are my straws, then? I've come up with two simple assumptions, trying to be as parsimonious as I can. I don't see any alternatives with less straws than that.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Are you saying people who have amnesia lose their subjective feelings? If they lose their memory of someone in their current life, why can’t they begin to love someone else?
    Because the spike that went through their head altered their personality in such a way that they cannot care about others.

    And as far as your scenario what about the person who has irreversible dementia or severe mental illness for years and years and moments before they die they become perfectly lucid, they start recognizing family members, they start talking coherently and they lose their delusions. That’s not suppose to happen.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_qBIw7qyHU
    I am very skeptical of this as a person who is moments from death cannot have extended (or even brief) experiments performed on them.

    I’ll clarify a bit more.

    M = Soul
    I thought M = X. Wasn't that the whole point of using M instead of soul?

    M → A version of energy that we have yet to fully understand.
    A version of energy or a form of energy? As far as I know there is only one version of energy which takes different forms such as electricity or an apple. If it is a new version of energy why are you calling it energy? Does it share properties with energy?

    M → Invisible to the naked eye. (Though this does not mean there are no instruments that can detect it.)
    But we could theoretically invent a device made of some form of energy (glass, steel, marshmallows...) that can detect M?

    M → Transcends the physical. (M is not bound or restricted to the physical body. It can go beyond it.)
    In the same way that ketch up can transcend the bottle that it comes in?

    M → Is not subject to physical laws (Physical laws that we understand. And laws that we don’t yet understand, M may or may not be affected by them; to be determined.
    If it is not subject to physical laws how can it interact with things that are? A pillow can only interact with your face because they both follow the law of ... I don't know the name of this law. Maybe the pillow-face law???

    M → Has some type of awareness, yet to be fully understood. (In the OP experiment, M is aware of the numbers. It has knowledge; is cognizant of the numbers. M knows the numbers. In many OBE experiences, M is aware it is floating above the body and it is aware of its environment.
    Water is aware of temperature. It is aware of the change in temperature as evidenced by its reaction to a change in temperature. This is the only 'type' of awareness that exists. If this is not what you mean you must use a different word than awareness.

    M → Can observe and experience (As M is floating over the body, M can observe and experience its environment)
    Observation and experience of the material are subject to material laws...

    M → Interacts with the physical form
    ...How can this thing interact with the material if it is not subject to its laws?

    ---------- Post added at 05:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    Where are my straws, then? I've come up with two simple assumptions, trying to be as parsimonious as I can. I don't see any alternatives with less straws than that.
    No idea. I was referring to the fact that all evidence regarding OBEs, for or against, is nothing more than conjecture at this point since we have so very little to go on.
    abc

  6. #26
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Because the spike that went through their head altered their personality in such a way that they cannot care about others.
    People who don’t care about others doesn’t mean they don’t have subjective experiences.

    You made the point that we can’t study what is not material. I pointed out that science is studying consciousness which is a non-material phenomena. Then you said consciousness is material. Then I asked you how are subjective experiences material? You haven’t answered that yet.

    I am very skeptical of this
    You can be skeptical. But the evidence is there to observe and study. Just because something does not fit within our current paradigm, true science does not restrict itself to materialistic explanations which result in restrictive hypotheses. In a healthy world, science should be open to new and initially inexplicable findings and welcome the challenge of finding explanatory theories.

    M = Soul I thought M = X. Wasn't that the whole point of using M instead of soul?
    The point was to assign some aspects/properties to the soul which your OP is questioning. But since you didn’t seem to like the concept of the soul, a non-material phenomena, I proposed that we call the soul M and then assign it some aspects/properties based upon what we observe from OBEs which your OP is about.

    A version of energy or a form of energy? .
    A form of energy works.

    But we could theoretically invent a device made of some form of energy (glass, steel, marshmallows...) that can detect M? .
    I think that could be a possibility. Also, more people might someday be able to perceive M.

    In the same way that ketch up can transcend the bottle that it comes in?
    Not sure what that means. To transcend means M is not restricted to the confines of the physical properties of the human body as observed in the experiment of your OP.

    If it is not subject to physical laws how can it interact with things that are?
    How can this thing interact with the material if it is not subject to its laws?
    I think the simple answer is probably that the properties of M are not restricted by the restrictive law and properties of materialism.

    Water is aware of temperature. It is aware of the change in temperature as evidenced by its reaction to a change in temperature. This is the only 'type' of awareness that exists. If this is not what you mean you must use a different word than awareness.
    In your OP experiment M is aware of the numbers.

    Observation and experience of the material are subject to material laws...
    Subject yes, but not necessarily restricted. Observations and experiences are also subjective and subjective experiences of the material world are not something we can touch and see. Yet we experience them and they do interact with our life. Even observations can be subjective. What one person sees and observes may not be what another person sees and observes even though they are both looking at the same thing. We don’t know how subjective [non- material] experiences rise from the brain, but they are part of our life.
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 20th, 2014 at 05:53 PM.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    People who don’t care about others doesn’t mean they don’t have subjective experiences.

    You made the point that we can’t study what is not material. I pointed out that science is studying consciousness which is a non-material phenomena. Then you said consciousness is material. Then I asked you how are subjective experiences material? You haven’t answered that yet.
    Is love a subjective experience? If so than the man who got brain damage lost the ability to expereince the subjective experience of love. He sill has the ability to have other subjective experiences. He would have to be dead to have no more subjective experiences.

    You can be skeptical. But the evidence is there to observe and study. Just because something does not fit within our current paradigm, true science does not restrict itself to materialistic explanations which result in restrictive hypotheses. In a healthy world, science should be open to new and initially inexplicable findings and welcome the challenge of finding explanatory theories.
    It totally is. Science is always open to new ideas. Science is all about new ideas. But we have limited resources (money, smart people) so we need to prioritize based upon what we need and what seems likely to give forth results. The total lack of evidence for or against OBEs makes it a very low priority. We just have no way of studying this sort of thing.

    The point was to assign some aspects/properties to the soul which your OP is questioning. But since you didn’t seem to like the concept of the soul, a non-material phenomena, I proposed that we call the soul M and then assign it some aspects/properties based upon what we observe from OBEs which your OP is about.
    You mean to the M. The word soul has other meanings attached to it which needlessly confounds the argument.

    A form of energy works.
    Good. That is a very significant difference.

    I think that could be a possibility. Also, more people might someday be able to perceive M.
    Due to genetic mutation caused by evolution?

    Not sure what that means. To transcend means M is not restricted to the confines of the physical properties of the human body as observed in the experiment of your OP.
    It means that the ketchup in the bottle is not confined to the physical properties of the bottle and has the ability to transcend the bottle by being poured out the top. The ketchup can transcend (leave) the confines of the bottle around it.

    I think the simple answer is probably that the properties of M are not restricted by the restrictive law and properties of materialism.
    You cannot interact with a law without being affected by it. That just doesn't make sense. How can you see light without being affected by the light? It has to touch some part of you in order for you to see it. The moment of contact is governed by laws. Both pieces that are interacting at this moment must follow the same laws or the interaction cannot occur. The light would simply pass through M.

    In your OP experiment M is aware of the numbers.
    I take it that you mean in the same way water is aware of temperature.

    subjective experiences of the material world are not something we can touch and see.
    Yes we can. The brain is a physical object that I can touch.

    What one person sees and observes may not be what another person sees and observes even though they are both looking at the same thing.
    What you see and what I see are exactly alike assuming that we are both humans without any brain damage or mutation. The way you interpret what you see is different from mine but at the basic level of your visual neural network you see what I see.
    abc

  8. #28
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Is love a subjective experience? If so than the man who got brain damage lost the ability to experience the subjective experience of love.
    Why does a spike have to go through a person’s head for him not to experience love?

    1. Lots of people can’t experience love without having a spike go through their head.
    2. Some people have absolutely no empathy.
    3. Then we have some people who haven't ever been able experience love, but who have a life changing experience and it somehow transforms them, without a spike going through their head, and they can experience love and much more.
    4. Then we have blind and deaf people who can’t see or hear, but somehow they can experience love.
    5. Then there’s all the OBE/NDE case studies and their experience of love.

    So love is a real mystery, yet we can't touch, see, hear, smell or taste this phenomena that most people can’t seem to live functional lives without.

    It totally is. Science is always open to new ideas. Science is all about new ideas.
    True science is open to new ideas. Current science has a prior commitment to materialism. That may change down the road. We’ve had similar discussions about this before, MX. “... we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes.”
    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post460108

    You mean to the M. The word soul has other meanings attached to it which needlessly confounds the argument.
    The word and concept of soul is in your OP. “Is this evidence of a soul or soul like phenomenon?

    In order to see if there is evidence for your question, we can attempt to come up with a working definition of it based upon evidence in order to discuss it. Does that sound reasonable?

    Due to genetic mutation caused by evolution?
    I would guess due to greater understanding and awareness which is probably subject to an evolutionary process.

    It means that the ketchup in the bottle is not confined to the physical properties of the bottle and has the ability to transcend the bottle by being poured out the top. The ketchup can transcend (leave) the confines of the bottle around it.
    But the catsup is restricted and must be poured out through the bottle opening (unless we break the bottle). But either way its liquid is subject to gravity as it will not float above and beyond the bottle but it will pour out on a plate in a buddle. That’s not transcendence.

    That just doesn't make sense. How can you see light without being affected by the light? It has to touch some part of you in order for you to see it. The moment of contact is governed by laws. Both pieces that are interacting at this moment must follow the same laws or the interaction cannot occur. The light would simply pass through M.
    I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. As far as the experiment cited in your OP, and the idea of M interacting with the body, were you asking how M can interact with the person in order for the person to know the numbers?

    I take it that you mean in the same way water is aware of temperature.
    I must have missed that in my science class. I wasn’t aware that water has awareness.

    Awareness: Having knowledge or cognizance:

    Yes we can. The brain is a physical object that I can touch.
    Where has it been established that the brain equals our experience? Science does not know how the physical processes in the brain give rise to subjective experiences. Giving rise to something doesn't mean equivalence of what it is giving rise to.

    What you see and what I see are exactly alike assuming that we are both humans without any brain damage or mutation. The way you interpret what you see is different from mine but at the basic level of your visual neural network you see what I see.
    You mean our subjective interpretation determines our observation. Two people looking at the same sunset see the same sunset but subjectively interrupt it differently.

    Subjectivity is all around us, it interacts with us all the time, yet we can’t touch it.
    Last edited by eye4magic; February 21st, 2014 at 05:53 AM.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Very much so. I want that power too and in order to get it I have to imagine how they did it and then do it myself. The fact that aliens have visited Earth is piratically irrelevant compared to the question of how exactly their ship functions.
    The question was not would it be important to you having formed the belief you'd been abducted by aliens, how they pulled it off. The question was, having been abducted by aliens, would you need to have some idea how they pulled it off, before you could form the belief that they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide
    Well this is kind of like the question of what is light. Is it a wave or a particle? We have evidence for both so maybe it is both. Couldn't cognition be a result of brain states as well as ... something?
    The point here is, you can't prove either supernaturalism or materialism true or false "scientifically", since both are metaphysical questions. The supernaturalist has no good account of how an immaterial cognizance can effect change in the physical world, how it can cause, for example, the transmission of a bio-chemical electrical current to flow from one synapse of a brain tissue neuron to its neighboring neuron's synapse. In a startling parallel to the supernaturalist's enigma, is the materialist's enigma concerning belief content. How does a traveling electrical current take on propositional content and an associated truth value in the brain where this quantum state change takes place? How does what is purely physical become purely abstract? No materialist, despite some truly valiant tries, has the slightest idea.

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  11. #30
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Here is one of the things that gets me about soul talk....

    The Soul: A mysterious thing that is not detectable or measurable and works in ways we don't at all understand but were damned sure it exists because.... well because...
    a) we think its logical
    b) we cant explain life in other ways
    c) it gives us hope we can live forever
    d) not having one is scary
    e) its how we explain why we can think
    f) it fills some gaps in our knowledge of how we work

    To me none of those are good reasoning. The soul is just one more god of the gaps sorts of human explanations for things we don't yet fully understand and every day the measure of what it is and what it can do shrinks as we fill those gaps with practical and predictable knowledge. It is a doomed and romantic idea that honestly we will never completely do away with. It's also largely a harmless notion that gives many comfort so it doesn't bother me much.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Here is one of the things that gets me about soul talk....

    The Soul: A mysterious thing that is not detectable or measurable and works in ways we don't at all understand but were damned sure it exists because.... well because...
    a) we think its logical
    b) we cant explain life in other ways
    c) it gives us hope we can live forever
    d) not having one is scary
    e) its how we explain why we can think
    f) it fills some gaps in our knowledge of how we work

    To me none of those are good reasoning. The soul is just one more god of the gaps sorts of human explanations for things we don't yet fully understand and every day the measure of what it is and what it can do shrinks as we fill those gaps with practical and predictable knowledge. It is a doomed and romantic idea that honestly we will never completely do away with. It's also largely a harmless notion that gives many comfort so it doesn't bother me much.
    How's that naturalistic account of "mind" coming?

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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    How's that naturalistic account of "mind" coming?
    You know how it is, broskie. There's a naturalistic account for everything, we just haven't gotten around to abiogenesis, ex nihilo, or NDE's yet. How long will this default position last? We run up against something so contrary to naturalism as this, that doesn't just contradict our theories but breaks quite a few laws of physics, and it just can't be something outside of naturalism. Here's a favorite article of mine that you guys might find interesting:

    http://garyhabermas.com/articles/Bib...digm-shift.htm
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    You know how it is, broskie. There's a naturalistic account for everything, we just haven't gotten around to abiogenesis, ex nihilo, or NDE's yet. How long will this default position last? We run up against something so contrary to naturalism as this, that doesn't just contradict our theories but breaks quite a few laws of physics, and it just can't be something outside of naturalism. Here's a favorite article of mine that you guys might find interesting:

    http://garyhabermas.com/articles/Bib...digm-shift.htm

    I would put it this way. To reject naturalism is to believe in magic and fairy tails.

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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    I would put it this way. To reject naturalism is to believe in magic and fairy tails.
    That you would even say that betrays your lack of education in metaphysics. A great deal of physicists and philosophers alike would disagree with you.
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    That you would even say that betrays your lack of education in metaphysics. A great deal of physicists and philosophers alike would disagree with you.
    There are not a great deal of physicists that would disagree.

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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdougie View Post
    There are not a great deal of physicists that would disagree.
    Which illustrates how many of us just buy into this stereotype.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/s...ts-and-belief/
    http://randalrauser.com/2013/06/are-...ngly-atheists/
    I want to emphasize the section entitled "the survey versus the reports" there.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov...ci24-2009nov24
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Why does a spike have to go through a person’s head for him not to experience love?

    1. Lots of people can’t experience love without having a spike go through their head.
    2. Some people have absolutely no empathy.
    3. Then we have some people who haven't ever been able experience love, but who have a life changing experience and it somehow transforms them, without a spike going through their head, and they can experience love and much more.
    4. Then we have blind and deaf people who can’t see or hear, but somehow they can experience love.
    5. Then there’s all the OBE/NDE case studies and their experience of love.

    So love is a real mystery, yet we can't touch, see, hear, smell or taste this phenomena that most people can’t seem to live functional lives without.
    It is a physical alteration within the neural network which is our brain that results in a persons ability to love. Sensory experience (light hitting your eye) can cause a physical change in your brain. When I see an apple and am told that it is called an apple my brain physical changes to connect the see apple neuron with the sound apple neuron. Now every time I see an apple that neural pathway activates. The neurons no longer move they just send electrical and chemical signals to each other through their newly formed physical connection. If this physical connection is broken I would be able to see an apple and know I can eat it but not know that it is called an apple. If I hear the word apple I know I can eat it but I cannot image what it looks like. This is a well documented phenomenon in psychology. The same holds true for all of the brain on the most basic level, even love.

    True science is open to new ideas. Current science has a prior commitment to materialism. That may change down the road. We’ve had similar discussions about this before, MX. “... we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes.”
    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post460108
    Limited resources. More promising field of inquiry.

    The word and concept of soul is in your OP. “Is this evidence of a soul or soul like phenomenon?

    In order to see if there is evidence for your question, we can attempt to come up with a working definition of it based upon evidence in order to discuss it. Does that sound reasonable?
    The working definition I use is: a magical ability that humans posses as described in the fictional story the Bible.

    But the catsup is restricted and must be poured out through the bottle opening (unless we break the bottle). But either way its liquid is subject to gravity as it will not float above and beyond the bottle but it will pour out on a plate in a buddle. That’s not transcendence.
    In outer space and if it was water it would transcend.

    I must have missed that in my science class. I wasn’t aware that water has awareness.

    Awareness: Having knowledge or cognizance:
    That is a different definition of awareness that I was using. I was using the one from Cognitive Science.

    Where has it been established that the brain equals our experience? Science does not know how the physical processes in the brain give rise to subjective experiences. Giving rise to something doesn't mean equivalence of what it is giving rise to.
    If A = B than B = A. When the brain is changed (A) so is subjective experience (B). Therefore since A = B the reverse must be true that subjective experience is the brain.

    You mean our subjective interpretation determines our observation.
    No.

    Two people looking at the same sunset see the same sunset but subjectively interrupt it differently.
    Yes.

    Subjectivity is all around us, it interacts with us all the time, yet we can’t touch it.
    All around us as in present in the heads of other people? The only reason we cannot touch it is because it is rude to smash someones skull open and play with their brains. Unless of course if your a zombie than it's practically mandatory.

    ---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cstamford View Post
    The question was not would it be important to you having formed the belief you'd been abducted by aliens, how they pulled it off. The question was, having been abducted by aliens, would you need to have some idea how they pulled it off, before you could form the belief that they did.
    Of course not. However, in order to accept that belief as true I would need to think logically about what happened and what could have caused my senses to detect being abducted by aliens. Being abducted by aliens does cause such sensory experiences but so can hallucinations.

    The point here is, you can't prove either supernaturalism or materialism true or false "scientifically", since both are metaphysical questions. The supernaturalist has no good account of how an immaterial cognizance can effect change in the physical world, how it can cause, for example, the transmission of a bio-chemical electrical current to flow from one synapse of a brain tissue neuron to its neighboring neuron's synapse. In a startling parallel to the supernaturalist's enigma, is the materialist's enigma concerning belief content. How does a traveling electrical current take on propositional content and an associated truth value in the brain where this quantum state change takes place? How does what is purely physical become purely abstract? No materialist, despite some truly valiant tries, has the slightest idea.
    I can pick up the material, I cannot pick up the supernatural. Yes my senses might be malfunctioning, but to believe that is insane.

    You do not see with your brain, you see with your eyes. Or at least that is the gist of it. I don't care if you believe me on this so I wont bother explaining it further (it is a very long explanation). Just sharing some info.
    abc

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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    The working definition I use is: a magical ability that humans posses as described in the fictional story the Bible.
    Ok, well perhaps that should have been part of your OP for clarity. Did you mean to say in your OP:

    "I have not yet decided what side of the argument to be on though I believe the soul is a magical ability that humans posses as described in the fictional story of the Bible. And if you want to discuss this magical ability that humans posses from the fictional story in the Bible, feel free.

    Silly me, I thought you were asking a serious meaningful question that you were objectively willing to discuss – my bad.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Ok, well perhaps that should have been part of your OP for clarity. Did you mean to say in your OP:

    "I have not yet decided what side of the argument to be on though I believe the soul is a magical ability that humans posses as described in the fictional story of the Bible. And if you want to discuss this magical ability that humans posses from the fictional story in the Bible, feel free.

    Silly me, I thought you were asking a serious meaningful question that you were objectively willing to discuss – my bad.
    Yes, major your bad! You should really know better!
    abc

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    Re: Out of Body Experiences Validated by Scientific Study

    Quote Originally Posted by MyXenocide View Post
    Yes, major your bad! You should really know better!
    Yea, I shouldn't take for granted objective debate.
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