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  1. #221
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    JJ: First, it's not a study. Let's get that mischaracterization out of the way before we continue.
    That's right, more specifically it was a paper, that was submitted to London's House of Commons.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ist-warns.html
    Thank you. It's good not to over-represent your evidence - it lends it more credence than is deserved. Especially in this specific case. I'd sooner you withdrew it.

    That's your opinion and you are free not to accept the support for my statement that there are societal consequences to same-sex marriage.
    How is 'that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline' a societal consequence that makes sense!?

    How is '
    'does not prevent homosexual couples from breaking up more frequently than married heterosexual couples.' an argument that they shouldn't marry in the first place?

    The problem is that the article is not supporting any societal consequences. You're making a bare statement with no real valid proof, and an offensive one at that. Please withdraw the article or provide better proof that there are negative societal consequences to same-sex marriage.

  2. #222
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    How is that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline' a societal consequence that makes sense!?
    Her research and paper that she presented to the House of Commons shows a societal consequence that:

    Gay marriage will destabilise family life

    Dr Patricia Morgan told the House of Commons that same-sex marriage reinforced the idea that marriage is irrelevant to parenthood. (societal effect)

    This was the principle factor, she said, that has caused the collapse in marriage rates between heterosexuals in countries where gay marriage had been introduced - as well as a sharp rise in cohabitation and the numbers of children born out of wedlock.

    She said there was no evidence whatsoever to prove the Coalition Government’s assertions that gay marriage would bolster the institution.

    She made her claims in a 22-page paper submitted at the Committee Stage of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill.

    It contained a detailed analysis of marriage trends in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Spain, Belgium, Canada and some U.S. states were gay marriage has been legalised.

    “From what we know about demographic trends, it is preposterous to argue that people suddenly somehow embrace marriage and slow or reverse its decline because homosexuals can have it,” Dr Morgan said.

    “We can be certain that same sex marriage will do no such thing as encourage stable marriage whether for heterosexuals and/or homosexuals. Marriage in Scandinavia, Spain, Netherlands and elsewhere is in deep decline.”

    She continued: “Same sex marriage is both an effect and a cause of the evisceration of marriage - especially the separation between this and parenthood.”

    38. Same sex marriage is both an effect and a cause of the evisceration of marriage - especially the separation between this and parenthood. As rising out-of-wedlock births and cohabitation rates - as well as legal changes - disassociate marriage from parenthood, same sex marriage becomes conceivable. If marriage is only about couple relationships, and is not intrinsically connected to parenthood, why not give the leavings to homosexuals? As marriage is redefined to accommodate same-sex couples, this reinforces the irrelevance of marriage to parenthood. Elsewhere, same sex marriage is an instigator for the casualisation of heterosexual unions and separation of marriage and parenthood.
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...e/memo/m94.htm


    Dr Morgan explained that gay marriage became conceivable only in those countries where marriage was already in crisis because of soaring “out-of-wedlock births and cohabitation rates” and invariably made such problems worse.

    “If marriage is only about couple relationships, and is not intrinsically connected to parenthood, why not give the leavings to homosexuals?,” she asked.

    “As marriage is redefined to accommodate same-sex couples, this reinforces the irrelevance of marriage to parenthood,” she said.

    …. The Coalition Government has consistently argued that David Cameron’s controversial gay marriage Bill will have the effect of strengthening all marriages by opening it up to same-sex couples.
    Last year the Home Secretary, Teresa May, told The Daily Telegraph that “homosexuals will be missionaries to the wider society and make it (marriage) ‘stronger’”.

    But the research by Dr Morgan, the respected family policy analyst who coined the phrase “marriage lite” to describe cohabitation, provides hard evidence that in fact the opposite is likely to happen.

    Spain in particular, she said, saw a “precipitous” downward acceleration in the numbers of all marriages by a 15,000 a year in first three years that followed the legalisation of same-sex marriage by the Socialist government in 2005.

    Now I realize that some people don't care if "marriage is irrelevant to parenthood". But that's certainly a debatable issue, and parenthood is a subject I am interested in. Several years ago I had a 3-month long heated debate on the subject of parenting/marriage on a different forum with someone who adamantly was against the notion of marriage /parenthood and strongly supported getting rid of the entire marriage institution (idea). I realize this view is not held by the majority of people, but that objective appears to be out there and supported by some in the gay community.


    Masha Gessen, a lesbian and a journalist, spoke frankly about this at a conference in Sydney, Australia, last summer.

    “It’s a no-brainer that (homosexual activists) should have the right to marry, but I also think equally that it’s a no-brainer that the institution of marriage should not exist. …(F)ighting for gay marriage generally involves lying about what we are going to do with marriage when we get there — because we lie that the institution of marriage is not going to change, and that is a lie.

    The institution of marriage is going to change, and it should change. And again, I don’t think it should exist. And I don’t like taking part in creating fictions about my life. That’s sort of not what I had in mind when I came out thirty years ago.

    I have three kids who have five parents, more or less, and I don’t see why they shouldn’t have five parents legally… I met my new partner, and she had just had a baby, and that baby’s biological father is my brother, and my daughter’s biological father is a man who lives in Russia, and my adopted son also considers him his father. So the five parents break down into two groups of three… And really, I would like to live in a legal system that is capable of reflecting that reality, and I don’t think that’s compatible with the institution of marriage.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/...arried/4058506
    Last edited by eye4magic; March 30th, 2014 at 11:16 PM.
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  4. #223
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Her research and paper that she presented to the House of Commons shows a societal consequence that:
    Gay marriage will destabilise family life

    Dr Patricia Morgan told the House of Commons that same-sex marriage reinforced the idea that marriage is irrelevant to parenthood. (societal effect)

    Please do not keep side tracking or adding additional points beyond what I'm asking. I asked for the defense of two specific points,how gay marriage helping heterosexual marriage is supposed to be relevant and how gay breakups also are relevant. These are specific arguments you brought up. Also, can you explain why gay marriage isn't really marriage.

  5. #224
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Please do not keep side tracking or adding additional points beyond what I'm asking.
    This is a thread on children [parenting] and same sex marriage marraige. If I want to bring up an issue on parenting, children and same sex marriage, I am free to do so. You are also free not to respond to any comments or support for my comments that I present on the subject. Do you think marriage should not exist?

    I asked for the defense of two specific points,how gay marriage helping heterosexual marriage is supposed to be relevant and how gay breakups also are relevant. These are specific arguments you brought up.
    Where have I made a personal comment about those points? The only comment I made in post 182 is to point out there were societal effects to consider with regards to same sex marriage and that society should critically consider those effects. Then I cited a paper and research by Dr. Patricia Morgan that she presented to the English Parliament. And the reason I cited that paper and research with regards to this thread subject on "Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children" (a parenting issue) is because her research data from Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain, Canada the US shows that same-sex marriage reinforced the idea that marriage is irrelevant to parenthood. Apparently you must agree with this part of the data because you said: “marriage is already irrelevant to parenthood so there is no reinforcing to be done.”

    Repeating, if you want to question specific points of her research and societal effects of same sex marriage, you are welcome to start a thread on the subject of “Societal effects of same sex marriage.”
    Last edited by eye4magic; March 31st, 2014 at 04:34 PM.
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  6. #225
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    This is a thread on children [parenting] and same sex marriage marraige. If I want to bring up an issue on parenting, children and same sex marriage, I am free to do so. You are also free not to respond to any comments or support for my comments that I present on the subject.
    But in doing so as a response to a challenge, it's not OK.

    Do you think marriage should not exist?
    Of course not.


    Where have I made a personal comment about those points? The only comment I made in post 182 is to point out there were societal effects to consider with regards to same sex marriage and that society should critically consider those effects. Then I cited a paper and research by Dr. Patricia Morgan that she presented to the English Parliament. And the reason I cited that paper and research with regards to this thread subject on "Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children" (a parenting issue) is because her research data from Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain, Canada the US shows that same-sex marriage reinforced the idea that marriage is irrelevant to parenthood. Apparently you must agree with this part of the data because you said: “marriage is already irrelevant to parenthood so there is no reinforcing to be done.”
    I disagree with every line item. Including the part which says that gay marriage is 'not really marriage'. A recap:

    • As marriage is redefined to accommodate same-sex couples, this reinforces the idea that marriage is irrelevant to parenthood.
    - marriage is already irrelevant to parenthood so there is no reinforcing to be done.

    • Same sex marriage leads to the casualisation of heterosexual unions and separation of marriage and parenthood.
    - again, heterosexual unions has been 'casualized' for decades, that's what the 60's was about.

    • Spain saw a pronounced acceleration in the decline of marriage following the introduction of same-sex marriage (same-sex marriage was introduced at the same time as the ‘express divorce bill’).
    - this may well be true but there is no causal link being made here and therefore should be dismissed.


    • Across all countries analysed no causal link has been established to support the idea that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline.
    - that's because SSM is not being billed as a prevention for marital decline!

    • In the move to same-sex marriage, opposite-sex relationships have to conform to gay norms rather than vice-versa.
    - I have no idea what this means.

    • A publicly professed, legal, partnership does not prevent homosexual couples from breaking up more frequently than married heterosexual couples.
    - Again, this has nothing to do with whether they can get married in the first place.

    • Experience with same-sex partnerships/marriage legislation tends to suggest that availability is all, and participation more or less irrelevant to sexual minorities.
    - I don't know what this means.


    • Same-sex marriage may be the end-game of long-running anti-marriage, anti-family policy typified by Sweden.
    - And?

    • Same-sex marriage may begin the process of severing marriage from family in otherwise family-friendly societies such as Spain and the Netherlands.
    - 'may' sounds like speculation and fear mongering to me.

    • Same-sex marriage triggers dismemberment of family structures in family-friendly societies.
    - No worse than divorce already does.

    Challenge to support a claim. Please defend the two points you put forward as arguments against gay marriage. Stop being evasive about it or stop publishing arguments that make no sense.

    Repeating, if you want to question specific points of her research and societal effects of same sex marriage, you are welcome to start a thread on the subject of “Societal effects of same sex marriage.”
    I'm not the one claiming that there are societal effects - you are. It is up to you to defend the 'evidence' you post. Or just withdraw it.
    Last edited by JimJones8934; April 5th, 2014 at 10:36 PM.

  7. #226
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. Please defend the two points you put forward as arguments against gay marriage. Stop being evasive about it or stop publishing arguments that make no sense.
    Please present and show me specifically what two points you claim I made against gay marriage.
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  8. #227
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Please present and show me specifically what two points you claim I made against gay marriage.
    The only two points we've been talking about for the last few posts:


    Across all countries analysed no causal link has been established to support the idea that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline.

    A publicly professed, legal, partnership does not prevent homosexual couples from breaking up more frequently than married heterosexual couples.

    Also, before I forget, can you explain why gay marriage 'is not really marriage'? If that's not anti-gay marriage then I have no idea what is!

    Edit: Corrected the first point and the corresponding bolding from previous post.
    Last edited by JimJones8934; April 5th, 2014 at 10:37 PM.

  9. #228
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Challenges should be specific as to the exact claim being made, ideally using the words in which the person challenged made them. They are for getting someone to support a specific claim made rather than one implied or inferred.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  10. #229
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    The only two points we've been talking about for the last few posts:
    What you’re citing is my support for the claim I made to support my statement that same-sex marriage can have societal effects.

    Let’s review:

    1. I made a claim that same sex marriage can have societal effects here:
    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...l=1#post535822

    To support my statement I offered support with a paper by a social scientist presented to the English Parliament.

    2. You are free not to accept the support I presented by Dr. Morgan as my support for my statement that same sex marriage can have societal effects. Her research and data from Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain, Canada the US show some societal effects. If you want to challenge her research and data it’s up to you to show her research and findings are faulty.
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  11. #230
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    What you’re citing is my support for the claim I made to support my statement that same-sex marriage can have societal effects.

    Let’s review:

    1. I made a claim that same sex marriage can have societal effects. To support my statement I offered support with a paper by a social scientist presented to the English Parliament.
    Just because it was submitted by a social scientist it doesn't make it a scientific paper nor necessarily one about social science. Firstly, a scientific paper clearly states its claims up front, in this case that gay marriage 'is not really marriage' is added as an addendum and doesn't lend it the credence you are trying to give it by calling it a 'paper by a social scientist'. The list you used as support for topics relevant to social science, is flawed in the ways I've mentioned.

    2. You are free not to accept the support I presented by Dr. Morgan as my support for my statement that same sex marriage can have societal effects. Her research and data from Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Spain, Canada the US show some societal effects. If you want to challenge her research and data it’s up to you to show her research and findings are faulty.
    No, actually, the paper is full of non-sequiters about NOT showing effects. In particular the two I have asked you to defend; namely:

    Across all countries analysed no causal link has been established to support the idea that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline.

    A publicly professed, legal, partnership does not prevent homosexual couples from breaking up more frequently than married heterosexual couples.

    I am not challenging her because she wasn't the one that believes her paper to be of any worth in this debate - you found it, read it, understood it and presented it as such. So it is incumbent upon you to justify how these two items are support for your case when in fact, they literally say gay marriage has no effect. More to the point though, it wouldn't matter whether they would have an effect or not, it is still irrelevant to gay marriage.

    Also, since the paper is predicated upon some kind of understanding that gay marriage is 'not really marriage' and since you had to be prodded to include that statement and you did include it, then it must be relevant that gay marriage is not really marriage to you. So you need to justify that also.





  12. #231
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    So it is incumbent upon you to justify how these two items are support for your case when in fact, they literally say gay marriage has no effect.
    As stated earlier, one of the main societal effects Dr. Morgan shows in her data is that same sex marriage reinforces the separation of marriage from parenthood. I’ve already pointed that out, and as you previously stated, you agree with this because you stated: “marriage is already irrelevant to parenthood so there is no reinforcing to be done.” Thus, in your opinion you seem to believe that marriage is already irrelevant to parenthood. Her research shows that same-sex marriage reinforces your subjective opinion -- that marriage is irrelevant to parenthood. This is a societal effect that law makers may want to critically examine. In other words, if a house with strong pillars (family/marriage/parenthood) has begun to burn, do we want to add gasoline to it or do we want to stop the fire and reinforce the foundations of the house and pillars?

    What does same sex marriage do to marriage?
    Same sex marriage is both an effect and a cause of the evisceration of marriage - especially the separation between this and parenthood. As rising out-of-wedlock births and cohabitation rates - as well as legal changes - disassociate marriage from parenthood, same sex marriage becomes conceivable. If marriage is only about couple relationships, and is not intrinsically connected to parenthood, why not give the leavings to homosexuals? As marriage is redefined to accommodate same-sex couples, this reinforces the irrelevance of marriage to parenthood. Elsewhere, same sex marriage is an instigator for the casualisation of heterosexual unions and separation of marriage and parenthood.
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...e/memo/m94.htm


    This is a societal effect. She is stating that her research data shows sex marriage is instigating increased causal sex in heterosexuals unions and is reinforcing the separation of marriage from parenthood.


    A societal effect in Sweden:

    ‘Gay’ marriage is the end game of long running anti-marriage and family policy - typified by Sweden. Cohabitation and out-of-wedlock birth rates were rising and marriage rates were falling in Scandinavia long before the enactment of homosexual partnership/marriage laws. These trends are explicable in terms of the removal or reduction of incentives to marry by forces hostile to traditional conjugality. Same sex partnership/marriage then locks in and reinforces existing trends toward the separation of marriage and parenthood.

    Or:
    Gay marriage initiates the severance and dismemberment of marriage and family in more family friendly societies, such as Spain and the Netherlands. There is free-fall towards the Scandinavian model – driving "home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any ‘family form’, is acceptable." [27]

    Either which way, same sex marriage is more a terminus for marriage or ultimate act of dissolution, rather than a force for revival.

    http://www.publications.parliament.u...e/memo/m94.htm


    Across all countries analysed no causal link has been established to support the idea that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline.

    A publicly professed, legal, partnership does not prevent homosexual couples from breaking up more frequently than married heterosexual couples.
    These objective comments by Dr. Morgan do not negate her data that shows same-sex marriage “reinforces the separation of marriage from parenthood” – a societal effect.
    Last edited by eye4magic; April 6th, 2014 at 03:20 PM.
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    Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    As stated earlier, one of the main societal effects Dr. Morgan shows in her data is that same sex marriage reinforces the separation of marriage from parenthood.
    Unfortunately, changing the topic, yet again I might add, doesn't really answer the question does it? If you wish to withdraw the original submission and introduce others, I'll accept the do-over but you really do need to formally withdraw it.

    As I immediately raised, out all the points you have brought up are flawed but the low hanging fruit are these two points that you continue to avoid defending:


    • Across all countries analysed no causal link has been established to support the idea that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline.
    • A publicly professed, legal, partnership does not prevent homosexual couples from breaking up more frequently than married heterosexual couples.


    Am I to take from this continual evasion that you are you withdrawing these two points that you yourself took the trouble to put forward? Do you agree that these literally do the opposite of what you claim the paper supports? To remind you, you stated that these two items, among others, were supposed to show societal effects but my reading of them is that they are explicitly saying they do not. Do you not agree?

    These objective comments by Dr. Morgan do not negate her data that shows same-sex marriage “reinforces the separation of marriage from parenthood” – a societal effect.
    Yet, in saying that gay marriage is "not really marriage" is falsely representing some of the support she has for her paper. Are all those resource she quotes from also supposed to be taken as read that gay marriage is not really marriage also?

    If we take those instructions then that contradicts the rest of the paper. For example, where it lists countries that have already introduced gay marriage, are we also take it as read that the Netherlands don't consider gay marriage really marriage either? Or is it only taken as read that it's not really marriage in this paper even though her sources disagree factually on that? And if it isn't really marriage, then what is it?

    So in injecting her own subjective opinions on what same sex marriage means, not only does she undermine whatever objectivity she has, but she puts a false veneer on top of papers that don't necessarily share her views which, in turn, brings her interpretation of the data into question.

    So I ask again, since you took the trouble to assess the phrase you originally didn't include and decided that it was germane, what does it mean that gay marriage is not really marriage? This is a pertinent question, I don't know why you are also evading such an important point.
    Last edited by JimJones8934; April 7th, 2014 at 07:37 AM.

  14. #233
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    For reference an interesting article about marriage rates in the US comparing the high points in the 60s to the current rates
    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/...-a-record-low/

    Generally it shows a long running trend in the decline in marriage rates since the early 70s. It notes that this is common across pretty much all highly developed countries, especially europe.

    I think the damning thing about such evidence is that this decline in marriage rates started long before gay marriage. I don't think that means you can't argue that gay marriage might be a symptom or result of a changing culture, but it points pretty hard that gay marriage is likely not a cause since the effect happened long before hand.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    For reference an interesting article about marriage rates in the US comparing the high points in the 60s to the current rates
    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/...-a-record-low/

    Generally it shows a long running trend in the decline in marriage rates since the early 70s. It notes that this is common across pretty much all highly developed countries, especially europe.

    I think the damning thing about such evidence is that this decline in marriage rates started long before gay marriage. I don't think that means you can't argue that gay marriage might be a symptom or result of a changing culture, but it points pretty hard that gay marriage is likely not a cause since the effect happened long before hand.
    I think your analysis misses an important premise in the "pro' side of this debate, and that is to understand the gay marriage issue properly, it can't be examined in a historical vacuum. You can't just focus on the term "marriage", and say because there was no gay marriage in the early 70s when marriages started to be damaged by various factors in society that gay marriages therefore do no harm to the institution.

    The intense political gay activism we see today began in the late 60s and early 70s. It's what got the description of homosexuality in the APA's DSM as a mental pathology changed. It's what's lobbied intensely and preached from every rooftop ever since that the homosexual life style, a life style that commonly consists in hundreds of sexual liaisons a year with different partners, is simply an "alternative lifestyle". And once that meme became suitably embedded in the national psyche, by little more than screeching outrage and parrot-like repetition, that same political activism went after any and all institutions in America that prohibited gays: the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, the Boy Scouts, private schools, including religious private schools, the military, and now, marriage.

    This activism, which began almost to the year consistent with the decline in successful marriages you've noted above, has consistently sought to separate reproduction and child rearing from sex and marriage. It has been a process, a political process (as opposed to a scientific process of uncovering additional evidence for the biological determination of homosexuality) covering several decades, because it is not something American culture, heavily impacted by Christian, not to mention common sense values, easily has accepted or tolerated.

    So yes, by conceptually pulling gay marriage out of this process, and looking at it as if it didn't belong to this history, it is fairly easy to say the trend line from the 70s to the present doesn't particularly support the contention that gay marriages do any harm to marriage as an institution. But then gay marriage doesn't exist apart from the history that spawned it, and it is that history that has done the damage to marriage as an institution. Gay marriage is simply the latest salvo in the very long battle to destroy marriage as an institution in which the State has any interest.

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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Dr. Morgan: "Across all countries analysed no causal link has been established to support the idea that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline."
    The societal effect that this comment is addressing is in Dr. Morgan’s paper:

    For the last decade political and social leaders in England and America have stated that same sex marriage will strengthen marriage. I would think that's a good selling point for the issue, though I'm not sure how they supported that claim. Anyway, that circumstance would be a positive societal effect if it came to pass -- strengthen marriage (reduce the divorce rate, build a stronger marriage culture). I will assume that you support a strong marriage culture and that you think strengthening marriage in society is a positive societal effect.

    This was/is expected to be a societal effect from same-sex marriage as stated by political and social leaders.

    Part of the argument for ‘equal’ marriage – especially from conservatives - is how homosexuals are eager to get married and, as they do so, this will increase and strengthen heterosexual marriage.

    "At a time when many heterosexuals are spurning the idea of marriage, here is a section of society positively lobbying for the right to respect and continue the institution. Perhaps gay marriage will encourage more straight people back on to the marital path." (Douglas Murray, D Gay rites. The Spectator 01.10.2011)

    Homosexuals will be missionaries to the wider society and make it "stronger" (Home Secretary Teresa May reported: Daily Telegraph 25.05.2012).

    As homosexuals increase the marriage rate, we are told, this will have a profound effect on social problems, saving us all much tribulation, tears and treasure.

    "… the most significant driver of social instability and poverty – [is] family breakdown... Backing marriage... would encourage strong and stable families, and tackle the social breakdown that fuels poverty." (Skelton, D and Flint, R ed Gibbs, B What’s In A Name? 2012 Policy Exchange Quoting the Centre for Social Justice, p.22)

    Homosexuals will, we are told, bring back foundational marital virtues in danger of being lost. Same sex marriage promises to be a force for revival which will:

    "…strengthen – rather than undermine – the institution of marriage and valuable notions of commitment, fidelity and responsibility…" (Skelton, D and Flint, R ed Gibbs, B What’s In A Name? 2012 Policy Exchange. p.60)

    Any claim that giving marital rights to gay couples will:

    "… undermine heterosexual marriage is based on the consistent misuse and misinterpretation of data". (Lee Badgett, M. V Will Providing Marriage Rights to Same-Sex Couples Undermine Heterosexual Marriage? Sexuality Research & Social Policy 2004 Vol. 1 ( 3) pgs. 1-10)

    http://www.publications.parliament.u...e/memo/m94.htm

    The societal effect Dr. Morgan is pointing out by the no “causal link” statement in her paper and research is that same sex marriage hasn’t shown to prevent marital divorce. This is addressing the “expected societal effect” that leaders claimed same-sex marriage will “strengthen – rather than undermine – the institution of marriage.”

    Dr. Morgan: "A publicly professed, legal, partnership does not prevent homosexual couples from breaking up more frequently than married heterosexual couples."
    Same as above. This statement seems to address the expected societal effect that was predicted that same-sex marriage would strengthen marriage (reduce the divorce rate).

    When same sex couples do get married, they are more likely than their heterosexual equivalents to change their minds later. A publicly professed, legal partnership does not prevent homosexual couples from breaking up more frequently than married heterosexual couples.7 We might have predicted low separation rates with the advent of same sex unions, as only the most eager and committed would be the first to move in together –
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...e/memo/m94.htm

    what does it mean that gay marriage is not really marriage? This is a pertinent question, I don't know why you are also evading such an important point.
    I didn't made a comment that gay marriage is not really marriage. I haven’t addressed it because I’m not really interested in the topic As I mentioned earlier, parenting/children and helping support strong families I have an interest in.

    JJ, I appreciate your enthusiasm in wanting to debate the subject of same sex marriage. This thread subject is about children and same-sex marriage. You are welcome to start a thread on the subject of “is gay marriage really marriage” and I’m sure you might find some ODN members who are interested in the topic to weigh in on the issue.
    Last edited by eye4magic; April 7th, 2014 at 08:55 PM.
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    Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    I'm modifying my last response in light of the ruling.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    The societal effect that this comment is addressing is in Dr. Morgan’s paper:

    For the last decade some political and social leaders in England and America have stated that same sex marriage will strengthen marriage. I'm not sure what they supported that claim with. Anyway, that circumstance would be a positive societal effect if it came to pass -- strengthen marriage (reduce the divorce rate, build a stronger marriage culture). I will assume that you support a strong marriage culture and that you think strengthening marriage in society is a positive societal effect.
    Right - this is a rebuttal against a claim that gay marriage is supposed to have a positive societal effect. But it literally doesn't support your point that gay marriage has a societal effect! It is saying that gay marriage does not have a societal effect - one claimed by the gay marriage supporters. This is completely opposite to the claims that you are making of it.

    Do you agree that this point does not support your claim?

    Same as above. This statement seems to address the expected societal effect that was predicted that same-sex marriage would strengthen marriage (reduce the divorce rate).
    Again, this is a rebuttal against a prior claim and again, it is saying there is no societal effect. And of course, again, it doesn't support your point that there are societal effects.

    Again, please confirm that this statement does not support your claim.

    I didn't made a comment that gay marriage is not really marriage. I haven’t addressed it because I’m not really interested in the topic As I mentioned earlier, parenting/children and helping support strong families I have an interest in.
    I'm not saying that you made the comment though but you are supporting it as part of the paper that you put forward as evidence for the societal effects. Unfortunately, the paper is fundamentally flawed by mis-representing some of its supporting data as also supporting the notion that 'marriage is not really marriage'.

    Please explain how one is supposed to take as read that gay marriage is not 'really marriage'. This instruction is at odds with the evidence being presented.

    JJ, I appreciate your enthusiasm in wanting to debate the subject of same sex marriage. This thread subject is about children and same-sex marriage. You are welcome to start a thread on the subject of “is gay marriage really marriage” and I’m sure you might find some ODN members who are interested in the topic to weigh in on the issue.
    I actually don't want to debate SSM. I would like you to explain how this paper is relevant to your claims when two of the statements say the exact opposite and how the statement that gay marriage is not really marriage doesn't undermine the evidence.

    Remember, it was you that decided it was pertinent enough to your argument when you corrected your original posting.

    Also, you are free not to respond so that my points remain in play for others to explain.
    Last edited by JimJones8934; April 8th, 2014 at 10:07 AM.

  18. #237
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quick neutral Mod insert here. There seems to be two issues between JJ and Eye.

    1) JJ is arguing that the evidence offered does not support one of the two claims made by Eye. This is allowed, but I'll point out, JJ offered a reason he thinks it didn't meet the claim and Eye offered her rebuttal. You are both free to go back and forth on why it does or does not apply, but this is no longer a question of the challenge rule, the staff feels Eye has made a relevant support (regardless of whether or not it is convincing to anyone).

    2) JJ seems to be requesting the paper be "retracted" for it being "not honest" or "fundamentally flawed." This is inappropriate. You can question the validity of support and even reject it for a valid reason, but none of those reasons give you warrant to challenge someone to withdraw their support. Support is offered and defended, it isn't a claim to be challenged or retracted.


    Just wanted to offer some clarity on where this thread stands so productive conversation could resume.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    Right - this is a rebuttal against a claim that gay marriage is supposed to have a positive societal effect. But it literally doesn't support your point that gay marriage has a societal effect!
    I stated that “There’s also the appeal to societal consequences and the critical thinking that should take place regarding the consequences to actions taken by a society.” I didn’t qualify that this appeal to societal consequences was positive or negative, just that we should critically consider those consequences. Therefore, in addition to the evidence that Dr. Morgan’s research shows that same-sex marriage reinforces the idea that marriage is irrelevant to parenthood, even before Dr. Morgan’s research, we had the claim that same-sex marriage was going to strengthen marriage. That positive societal effect was put on high ground and promoted by heads of state in England and social leaders in the U.S. It’s actually a great concept. Who doesn’t want the societal effect of strong, solid, stable marriages, (reducing the divorce rate and building a strong marriage culture) to become a reality? This was the expected societal effect – same sex marriage is going to strengthen marriage.

    Dr. Morgans research shows thus far there’s no evidence of a causal link that shows same-sex marriage strengthens marriage,(from the countries studied in Europe and a few states in the U.S.) – that’s a societal effect (not strengthening marriage.)

    Consider this: Let’s say social leaders who were promoting same-sex marriage a decade ago decided not to use “SSM will strengthen marriage in society” on their platform. So here we are 10+ years later and there’s no societal effect to become a reality; SSM will not strengthen marriage in society. It may strengthen marriage; it may not strengthen marriage. Either way, what may or what may not strengthen marriage are societal effects when we study and examine them.

    So either way, even though her research is addressing the expected societal effect that SSM is suppose to make a reality, strengthening marriage, her research finds no evidence of a causal link that SSM strengthens marriage.

    Even if no body expected that same sex marriage was going to strengthen marriage, evidence that shows no causal link that SSM strengthens marriage is a societal effect. It's not necessarily a positive or a negative societal effect, but its an effect nevertheless. Why? Because most reasonable people value marriage and want to strengthen its pillars. Thus, what affects marriage in a positive or negative way or even a neutral way are relevant for us to critically consider.
    Last edited by eye4magic; April 8th, 2014 at 02:12 PM.
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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    @eye:

    What do you mean by marriage when you use it in a non-quoted context? I'm having a bit of a hard time interpreting exactly what you mean because you included a statement that SSM is not 'really marriage' as part of your argument? I understand that the evidence clearly uses marriage only in the opposite sex marriage (OSM) sense but when you use it in your own arguments, what do you mean?

    If we're talking about the societal effects of 'marriage' do you mean OSM only or are you talking about marriage as a social institution (including SSM)?

    For example, you end the last post with:

    Even if no body expected that same sex marriage was going to strengthen marriage, evidence that shows no causal link that SSM strengthens marriage is a societal effect. It's not necessarily a positive or a negative societal effect, but its an effect nevertheless. Why? Because most reasonable people value marriage and want to strengthen its pillars. Thus, what affects marriage in a positive or negative way or even a neutral way are relevant for us to critically consider.
    Do you mean by 'strengthen marriage' as

    1. OSM only (per the interpretation we're supposed to take per the paper)? Which seems awfully one-sided but possibly true.
    2. OSM+SSM, i.e. marriage as a social institution? Which is likely what the pro-gay side is saying, but the evidence is only against OSM. So the pro-gay claims aren't really being rebutted at all.

    Which is it? Or is there a third option where the paper is talking about OSM and we're reading it as OSM+SSM, which is contrary to what the paper is purporting.

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    Re: Same-Sex marriage is bad for the Children!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JimJones8934 View Post
    What do you mean by marriage when you use it in a non-quoted context? I'm having a bit of a hard time interpreting exactly what you mean because you included a statement that SSM is not 'really marriage' as part of your argument? I understand that the evidence clearly uses marriage only in the opposite sex marriage (OSM) sense but when you use it in your own arguments, what do you mean?
    As stated before, I haven’t made a personal argument on this thread except to point out that the SSM issue can have an appeal to societal effects. You asked me to show the societal effect of one of Dr. Morgan’s points in her paper: “Across all countries analysed no causal link has been established to support the idea that same-sex marriage prevents marital decline” and my previous point simply attempts to clarify the societal effect of this comment.


    Part of the argument for ‘equal’ marriage – especially from conservatives - is how homosexuals are eager to get married and, as they do so, this will increase and strengthen heterosexual marriage. At a time when many heterosexuals are spurning the idea of marriage, here is a section of society positively lobbying for the right to respect and continue the institution.

    Perhaps gay marriage will encourage more straight people back on to the marital path.” (Douglas Murray, D Gay rites. The Spectator 01.10.2011)

    Do you mean by 'strengthen marriage' as
    1. OSM only (per the interpretation we're supposed to take per the paper)? Which seems awfully one-sided but possibly true.
    2. OSM+SSM, i.e. marriage as a social institution? [/quote]

    From the context of Dr. Morgan’s paper and references: “this will increase and strengthen heterosexual marriage” (reversing lower marriage rates, high divorce rates and unwed births. )
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