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  1. #1
    mistercghs
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    The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Matthew 12:38-40 KJV

    Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, BUT THE SIGN OF THE PROPHET JONAS: For as Jonas was three days AND three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days AND three nights in the heart of the earth.

    This didn't happen...he was not in the earth for three days n three nights...

    He died Friday eve...
    Matthew 27:45-46 KJV

    Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    And rose BEFORE Sunday morn... Matthew 28:1, 6 KJV

    In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre...He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

    THAT IS NOT THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS...CHRIST WAS A FALSE PROPHET

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    Last edited by mistercghs; April 28th, 2014 at 06:46 AM.

  2. #2
    mistercghs
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    I'm new...it's my first post...I just hope someone breaks this down for me...wish I could've posted this pre-Easter

    Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by MIS
    This didn't happen...he was not in the earth for three days n three nights...
    Nope, but he was in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights.

    Starting from the time that he told his disciples " 41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. "
    Mark 14:32-42



    Simply put the sign doesn't start when he dies, or at least it doesn't necessarily start then.



    Reference..
    http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-li...3-nights..aspx


    Edit--
    I also think it is funny to forward a position that says Jesus Rose FROM THE DEAD, on the wrong day.. and sees that as a problem.
    To serve man.

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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    The joy of apologetic is you can pretty much say any word means nearly anything if you juggle it around enough. Faith finds a way!

    Its been called the tomb. Seems a bit daft since anyone can spend time in a cave.
    Its been called the evil hearts of men.
    Its been called (in this case) the "clutches of the world".
    Its been called a euphemism for hell/Sheol/Underworld interpretation of your choice. (this seems the most likely to me given typical legend)
    Its been called the city of Jerusalem.

    The simple answer is the bible is a book written by various religions people over hundreds of years and its not iron clad in its story telling.

    But if you want to play with words and meanings then it can say pretty much whatever you like it to and you have many options to have it all make sense to you.
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  5. #5
    mistercghs
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Nope, but he was in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights.




    Edit--
    I also think it is funny to forward a position that says Jesus Rose FROM THE DEAD, on the wrong day.. and sees that as a problem


    The first thing you said was "nope"...I'm glad you agree sir

    I'm glad u see that he "rose" on the wrong day... the problem is what he said DID NOT come to pass sir...the only measly sign he gave...DID NOT COME TO PASS...that's a problem sir

    Jonas being in the belly of the whale didn't start before he entered the whale...y would Christ start before he's buried...?

    Go search something else like gotquestion.org and try again...

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    ---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The joy of apologetic is you can pretty much say any word means nearly anything if you juggle it around enough. Faith finds a way!

    Its been called the tomb. Seems a bit daft since anyone can spend time in a cave.
    Its been called the evil hearts of men.
    Its been called (in this case) the "clutches of the world".
    Its been called a euphemism for hell/Sheol/Underworld interpretation of your choice. (this seems the most likely to me given typical legend)
    Its been called the city of Jerusalem.

    The simple answer is the bible is a book written by various religions people over hundreds of years and its not iron clad in its story telling.

    But if you want to play with words and meanings then it can say pretty much whatever you like it to and you have many options to have it all make sense to you.
    Was that a general statement...or were answering my original question...

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  6. #6
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    But if you want to play with words and meanings then it can say pretty much whatever you like it to and you have many options to have it all make sense to you.
    Well, that is what happens when people say "Heart of the hearth" instead of "tomb".
    When you speak in allegory, not to mention it could have just been an idiom specific to the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by MIS
    The first thing you said was "nope"...I'm glad you agree sir
    Soo..your basically not going to hear what I'm saying, your going to hear the parts you want.. O.k.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIS
    I'm glad u see that he "rose" on the wrong day
    Right.. because that is totally what I said and the point I made.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIS
    Jonas being in the belly of the whale didn't start before he entered the whale...y would Christ start before he's buried...?
    Because it wasn't referring to burial.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIS
    Go search something else like gotquestion.org and try again...
    Because a source makes an answer wrong. Great fallacy there.

    How about, you make a biblical, cultural case for why it MUST be a reference to being in the tomb?
    I have shown that it is POSSIBLE to be something else. Which means that your statement is not necessarily true so as to be taken at face value.

    You need to provide a better defense of your claim. If however you are simply going to dismiss any counter explanation out of hand.. then I guess this is as far as a discussion is going to go.
    To serve man.

  7. #7
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercghs View Post
    Was that a general statement...or were answering my original question...
    A general statement on the topic. I was curious how the question had been answered and found a wide range of different apologetic tracks to answer it. That has been my experience with apologetic in general. Sometimes you can shift someone onto a different track, but rarely can you convince them there is an actual contradiction in the bible as there is always some room to move on definitions and meanings in such a document.

    Not that I think you should not bring it up, its always interesting to see what individuals have to say on the matter.

    My own take is generally that the NT was written weakly to harmonize with the OT when in fact the Christian faith was a Jewsih cult with very different central themes than the Jewish faith and those who wrote it were not always trying hard to synchronize it and this shows through in places like this. Then again a lack of precision could speak to a more genuine account not trying to synchronize or it could speak to simple sloppiness in lore crafting. Obviously I'd be in the latter camp.
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    My own take is generally that the NT was written weakly to harmonize with the OT when in fact the Christian faith was a Jewsih cult with very different central themes than the Jewish faith and those who wrote it were not always trying hard to synchronize it and this shows through in places like this. Then again a lack of precision could speak to a more genuine account not trying to synchronize or it could speak to simple sloppiness in lore crafting. Obviously I'd be in the latter camp.
    I don't want to distract from the thread, so I won't challenge your answer to my next question.. I'm just curious for an example.
    So, what is an example of the "different theme" of Christianity from Judaism? (I assume it would be a contradictory one?)
    To serve man.

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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, that is what happens when people say "Heart of the hearth" instead of "tomb".
    When you speak in allegory, not to mention it could have just been an idiom specific to the time.
    I think the best mileage is to say 3 days is a kind of idiom. There is some support for that, the bible has a lot of "magic number" language all over the place and time spans are measured in these numbers (often primes of factors of 2) in a way that makes it seem more a matter of having a "mystically correct" measure than a purely descriptive one.

    That leaves you free to keep the idea of Heart of the Earth being a term for the underworld / land of dead souls etc... which seems by far the most likely meaning. But if you take 3 days literal then you simply have the problem of him not being dead that long and you need to take heart of the earth to mean something pretty vague and undramatic (like Jerusalem or the hearts of evil men) and nothing like spending time inside a whale which is what it is compared to in Jonah.

    To me its just obvious that Jesus is not the Meshiah of the OT (since he is not an earthly ruler that unites Israel as so often foretold) and thus no reason to expect he would spend 3 days in the heart of the earth. The Jews imagined a much less interesting kind of savior than Jesus.

    ---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't want to distract from the thread, so I won't challenge your answer to my next question.. I'm just curious for an example.
    So, what is an example of the "different theme" of Christianity from Judaism? (I assume it would be a contradictory one?)
    The OT is the story of a chosen people and their harsh but all powerful god and how they struggle to meet his approval but fall to their own weakness. It promises an eternal kingdom on earth if the Jews can but live a life of virtue.

    The NT is the story of a redemptive god who loves and forgives everyone and all those who will but submit to believing in him are rewarded with an eternal spiritual kingdom of purity to those who accept baptism/Christ.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  11. #10
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I think the best mileage is to say 3 days is a kind of idiom. There is some support for that, the bible has a lot of "magic number" language all over the place and time spans are measured in these numbers (often primes of factors of 2) in a way that makes it seem more a matter of having a "mystically correct" measure than a purely descriptive one.
    I can see that, I have a problem with taking it in the most literal sense, because it wasn't given in a literal language.
    Taking a watch to it is taking literally, and so it should be supported that it was INTENDED literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    That leaves you free to keep the idea of Heart of the Earth being a term for the underworld / land of dead souls etc... which seems by far the most likely meaning. But if you take 3 days literal then you simply have the problem of him not being dead that long and you need to take heart of the earth to mean something pretty vague and undramatic (like Jerusalem or the hearts of evil men) and nothing like spending time inside a whale which is what it is compared to in Jonah.
    Yea .. no water anywhere
    .. of course what I mean is that there are a lot of ways it still could be very much like being inside the whale.
    Jonah didn't want to be there.. maybe it is referring to that?
    Jonah was being controlled by the whale (or under its authority).. maybe it's referring to that?

    That's just two off the top of my head, so to say it's "Nothing like" is simply not true, there are plenty of possible parallels. The challenge would be nailing down which one he was specifically referencing, and then evidencing how it didn't come about.

    I won't claim to know the answer.. but starting from a position of assumption is the first thing I'm going to question.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    To me its just obvious that Jesus is not the Meshiah of the OT (since he is not an earthly ruler that unites Israel as so often foretold) and thus no reason to expect he would spend 3 days in the heart of the earth. The Jews imagined a much less interesting kind of savior than Jesus.
    That seems to be pretty true. The Jews were expecting an earthly ruler.. Jesus said his kindgom was spiritual.
    To serve man.

  12. #11
    mistercghs
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Well, that is what happens when people say "Heart of the hearth" instead of "tomb".
    When you speak in allegory, not to mention it could have just been an idiom specific to the time.
    Sir it could have said "heart of the earth", "tomb", "whale", hell it could have said "dumpster"...the point is he wasnt there for 3 days and 3 nights. You said it started when he was handed over to his enemies. Well if that's the case then its still didn't come to pass because you would have to be in "that place" for 3 days AND 3 nights.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Soo..your basically not going to hear what I'm saying, your going to hear the parts you want.. O.k.

    Not the case, you said "nope" (he was in the heart of the earth 3 nights) if we were in court your case would be surrendered.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Right.. because that is totally what I said and the point I made.
    STATE YOUR EXACT POINT SO THAT I CAN GAIN CLARITY




    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    How about, you make a biblical, cultural case for why it MUST be a reference to being in the tomb?
    I have shown that it is POSSIBLE to be something else. Which means that your statement is not necessarily true so as to be taken at face value.
    I think I explained this already but in case I didnt...he said he would be "in a place" for 3 days AND 3 nights...the bible says the "heart of the earth"...you say it can mean something else...show me where he was in "a place" for 3 days AND 3 nights.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    You need to provide a better defense of your claim. If however you are simply going to dismiss any counter explanation out of hand.. then I guess this is as far as a discussion is going to go.
    Im not on the defense, you are. However, Ive shown where christ lied...you said "no it means something else"...dont hit me with the "its all about perception" speech or we're done. I dont mind you googling...its cool i was just stating what I thought might be a better website for you is all.

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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by MISt
    Sir it could have said "heart of the earth", "tomb", "whale", hell it could have said "dumpster"...the point is he wasnt there for 3 days and 3 nights. You said it started when he was handed over to his enemies. Well if that's the case then its still didn't come to pass because you would have to be in "that place" for 3 days AND 3 nights.
    Your assuming a place, when I referenced a situation.
    His ordeal began in the garden and ended at resurection and it took 3 days and 3 nights.
    just like Johnas whail ordeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    Not the case, you said "nope" (he was in the heart of the earth 3 nights) if we were in court your case would be surrendered.
    Sure if the judge and jury want to ignore context and stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    STATE YOUR EXACT POINT SO THAT I CAN GAIN CLARITY
    That given the specific context as you are reading it, your conclusion seems to follow.
    Yet your context is incorrect, or not "necissarily" correct.

    Your position requires it to be necissarily correct. Thus your position fails to be an actual contradiction in the bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    I think I explained this already but in case I didnt...he said he would be "in a place" for 3 days AND 3 nights...the bible says the "heart of the earth"...you say it can mean something else...show me where he was in "a place" for 3 days AND 3 nights.
    Support that it was necissarily a "place", and couldn't be a situation or event.


    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    Im not on the defense,
    On ODN the policy is "make a claim, support it".
    You are the one making the initial claims, and you must support them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    However, Ive shown where christ lied...you said "no it means something else"...dont hit me with the "its all about perception" speech or we're done.
    Certainly it isn't what we think it means that is important, but we should be trying to discover what was INTENDED by the writer.
    Would you agree with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    I dont mind you googling...its cool i was just stating what I thought might be a better website for you is all.
    I appreciate your attempt to help bolster my case, but I'm more interested in the substance of what the sources have to say, then who says it.
    As sig has pointed out, there are multiple explinations floating out there.

    The one I forwarded challenges your assumption of "A place".

    Another will challenge your assumption of "Friday sabath".

    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    Based on these facts, many people have assumed that it is the weekly Sabbath mentioned here, and that Jesus was therefore crucified on a Friday. But two types of "Sabbaths" are mentioned in the Scriptures—the regular weekly Sabbath day, which fell on the seventh day of the week, and seven annual Holy Days (listed in Leviticus 23), Sabbaths that could—and usually did—fall on days of the week other than the regular weekly Sabbath day.
    Was the day after Jesus was crucified a weekly Sabbath, or one of these annual Holy Days?
    John:19:31 clearly states that this approaching Sabbath "was a high day." This term does not refer to the weekly Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), but in this context to the first day of Unleavened Bread, one of God's annual Holy Days (Exodus:12:16-17

    ; Leviticus:23:6-7

    ). A number of Bible commentaries, encyclopedias and dictionaries will confirm that John is not referring to the weekly Sabbath here, but rather to one of the annual Sabbaths.
    According to the biblical calendar, in that year this high-day Sabbath fell on a Thursday (meaning it began on Wednesday night at sunset). We can confirm this by looking at the details in the Gospel accounts—which show us that two separate Sabbath days are mentioned.
    Luke:23:55-56

    tells us that the women, after seeing Christ's body being laid in the tomb just before sundown, "returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils" for the final preparation of the body.
    They would not have done such work on a Sabbath day, weekly or annual, since it would have been considered a Sabbath violation. This is verified by Mark's account, which states: "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices [which they could not have purchased on a Sabbath day], that they might come and anoint Him" (Mark:16:1).
    The women had to wait until this Sabbath was over before they could buy and prepare the spices to be used for anointing Jesus' body. Then, Luke:23:56 tells us that, after purchasing and preparing the spices and oils on Friday, "they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment"—which means they had to have acquired the spices before that Sabbath on which they rested. This second Sabbath mentioned in the Gospel accounts is the regular weekly Sabbath, observed from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
    http://www.ucg.org/doctrinal-beliefs...s-heart-earth/


    There is just a lot of things going on that people ignore when criticizing the bible. Be it the cultural use of language (such as "in the heart of the earth") or the cultural use of dating (such as the Sabbath, and how several can occur in one week). The later is the one that has made the most sense to me. But both are sufficient to rebut your position.
    To serve man.

  14. #13
    mistercghs
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    A general statement on the topic. I was curious how the question had been answered and found a wide range of different apologetic tracks to answer it. That has been my experience with apologetic in general. Sometimes you can shift someone onto a different track, but rarely can you convince them there is an actual contradiction in the bible as there is always some room to move on definitions and meanings in such a document.

    Not that I think you should not bring it up, its always interesting to see what individuals have to say on the matter.

    My own take is generally that the NT was written weakly to harmonize with the OT when in fact the Christian faith was a Jewsih cult with very different central themes than the Jewish faith and those who wrote it were not always trying hard to synchronize it and this shows through in places like this. Then again a lack of precision could speak to a more genuine account not trying to synchronize or it could speak to simple sloppiness in lore crafting. Obviously I'd be in the latter camp.
    I hear ya Sig, I agree in every way

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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I can see that, I have a problem with taking it in the most literal sense, because it wasn't given in a literal language.
    Taking a watch to it is taking literally, and so it should be supported that it was INTENDED literally.
    Not to mention you then have to take the story of a man living in a whale literally. As an illustrative story.... its a lot easier to... wait for it.... swallow! (ahhh the pleasure of being the 9 billionth person to make that joke.)

    Yea .. no water anywhere
    Indeed! LOL

    .. of course what I mean is that there are a lot of ways it still could be very much like being inside the whale.
    Jonah didn't want to be there.. maybe it is referring to that?
    Jonah was being controlled by the whale (or under its authority).. maybe it's referring to that?
    True, I went to far. Lets say that the more salient or remarkable aspects of being inside a whale are not being under its authority or not wanting to be there. Were those relevant it could have been the story of Jonah inside the belly of the Department of Motor Vehicles.

    That seems to be pretty true. The Jews were expecting an earthly ruler.. Jesus said his kindgom was spiritual.
    And I know there are lots of apologetic that work to synchronize in various ways, and the have their moments. But my general reading is that Jesus was not what most Jews expected of a Messiah. Were I a christian I might put some stock in folks like Marcion. Of course that path has some nasty anti-Semitic descendants so I much prefer to stick with my more secular humanist trappings!
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Not to mention you then have to take the story of a man living in a whale literally. As an illustrative story.... its a lot easier to... wait for it.... swallow! (ahhh the pleasure of being the 9 billionth person to make that joke.)
    you think it's hard for you, what about a Krill eating whale!
    Budum Cha!

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    True, I went to far. Lets say that the more salient or remarkable aspects of being inside a whale are not being under its authority or not wanting to be there. Were those relevant it could have been the story of Jonah inside the belly of the Department of Motor Vehicles
    Well, I just don't know the culture to say what they thought was important.
    I mean, I have taken Jonah to be literal, and that it was the dead part that Jesus was referring to, which means I'm more inclined to think it was a different Sabbath than Friday/sat.
    those are just the most recognizable to us, but apparently Jewish culture has a much more confusing calendar.

    But I don't close the door on the idea that Jesus wasn't referring to being dead, but was referring to doing something he wasn't excited about.
    Jonah is a famous story about a reluctant missionary.
    So there is a lot that can be communicated in that small reference, and the important aspect to our discussion is WHAT aspect was it referring to... I don't really know though I have my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    And I know there are lots of apologetic that work to synchronize in various ways, and the have their moments. But my general reading is that Jesus was not what most Jews expected of a Messiah. Were I a christian I might put some stock in folks like Marcion. Of course that path has some nasty anti-Semitic descendants so I much prefer to stick with my more secular humanist trappings!
    Ahh.. the incurable humanist you are

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxg3DvApg34#t=89

    Song, Regina Spektor.. where she sings "incurable humanist" in a beautiful voice.

    anyway, I subscribe to the warning about the grafted on branch. If the original can be cut off, I have no place to think myself better.
    To serve man.

  17. #16
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your assuming a place, when I referenced a situation.
    His ordeal began in the garden and ended at resurection and it took 3 days and 3 nights.
    just like Johnas whail ordeal.
    The "garden" is a place...the ressurection is an event...which are you referencing...place or event? Forget that, answer this...what day was he delivered to his enemies (the garden)? Please answer that. Please

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Sure if the judge and jury want to ignore context and stuff.
    Context, context, context...I dont mind context but this crap is CLEAR AS DAY...when you go to church or wherever you go...you have "good Friday"...and then easter on Sunday (the day he supposedly rose)...The Pauline doctrine says god is not the author of confusion yet you make this SIMPLE concept into Chinese arithmetic...OK cool

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    That given the specific context as you are reading it, your conclusion seems to follow.
    Yet your context is incorrect, or not "necissarily" correct.
    Is it correct or incorrect? Pick one...confusing

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your position requires it to be necissarily correct. Thus your position fails to be an actual contradiction in the bible.
    ok...if you say so


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Another will challenge your assumption of "Friday sabath".


    http://www.ucg.org/doctrinal-beliefs...s-heart-earth/
    Im familiar witrh the argument...That was Passover sir, the Passover is not a weekly Sabbath. Mathew Mark Luke and John all say "it began to dawn towards the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" which is Sunday...so he did not die on Wednesday and rise Friday...doesnt work


    There is just a lot of things going on that people ignore when criticizing the bible. Be it the cultural use of language (such as "in the heart of the earth") or the cultural use of dating (such as the Sabbath, and how several can occur in one week). The later is the one that has made the most sense to me. But both are sufficient to rebut your position.[/QUOTE]

    ---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

    [QUOTE=mistercghs;537245]The "garden" is a place...the ressurection is an event...which are you referencing...place or event? Forget that, answer this...what day was he delivered to his enemies (the garden)? Please answer that. Please



    Context, context, context...I dont mind context but this crap is CLEAR AS DAY...when you go to church or wherever you go...you have "good Friday"...and then easter on Sunday (the day he supposedly rose)...The Pauline doctrine says god is not the author of confusion yet you make this SIMPLE concept into Chinese arithmetic...OK cool



    Is it correct or incorrect? Pick one...confusing



    ok...if you say so




    Im familiar witrh the argument...That was Passover sir, the Passover is not a weekly Sabbath. Mathew Mark Luke and John all say "it began to dawn towards the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" which is Sunday...so he did not die on Wednesday and rise Friday...doesnt work



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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    The "garden" is a place...the ressurection is an event...which are you referencing...place or event? Forget that, answer this...what day was he delivered to his enemies (the garden)? Please answer that. Please
    Yes the garden is a place, and he was betrayed there .. which is an event.
    Events are not clearly defined and it is still proper to call the point from his betrayal to resurrection a single "event".
    Wednesday, per the link I gave earlier. (that is according to the second understanding of what is going on).

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    Context, context, context...I dont mind context but this crap is CLEAR AS DAY...when you go to church or wherever you go...you have "good Friday"...and then easter on Sunday (the day he supposedly rose)...The Pauline doctrine says god is not the author of confusion yet you make this SIMPLE concept into Chinese arithmetic...OK cool
    I don't see how difficulty for us is "confusion".

    Quote Originally Posted by MIST
    Context, context, context...I dont mind context but this crap is CLEAR AS DAY...when you go to church or wherever you go...you have "good Friday"...and then easter on Sunday (the day he supposedly rose)...The Pauline doctrine says god is not the author of confusion yet you make this SIMPLE concept into Chinese arithmetic...OK cool
    I quoted an explanation, and I don't see how you are addressing it at all.
    The idea is that there are two "Sabbaths" occurring in close proximity.
    Quote Originally Posted by LINK
    tells us that the women, after seeing Christ's body being laid in the tomb just before sundown, "returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils" for the final preparation of the body.
    They would not have done such work on a Sabbath day, weekly or annual, since it would have been considered a Sabbath violation. This is verified by Mark's account, which states: "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices [which they could not have purchased on a Sabbath day], that they might come and anoint Him" (Mark:16:1).
    The women had to wait until this Sabbath was over before they could buy and prepare the spices to be used for anointing Jesus' body. Then, Luke:23:56 tells us that, after purchasing and preparing the spices and oils on Friday, "they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment"—which means they had to have acquired the spices before that Sabbath on which they rested. This second Sabbath mentioned in the Gospel accounts is the regular weekly Sabbath, observed from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
    To serve man.

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  20. #18
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    When we stick to the Word of God, the answers become concise.

    Are you concerned about the day Christ died?

    Christianity is not for everyone . Those who are not chosen will always deny God's truth. nothing new here. But for purposes of claification ,read the following :

    Jesus died at around 3:00pm (Luke 23:44) in the afternoon right about the time when the passover lambs were being slaughtered in preparation for the Passover. After Jesus gave up the ghost and died, we read in John 19:31 that the Jews went to Pilate requesting that the legs of those crucified be broken to quicken their death. Pilate gives the order and the soldiers broke the legs of the two thieves but they did not brake Jesus' legs (Psalm 34:20) (Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12) because they found Jesus was already dead so they pierced (Zechariah 12:10) His side instead and blood and water flowed (John 19:34.)

    Isaiah 53:6-7 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

    Jesus died at the exact time when the Passover lambs were being slain in Jerusalem. This makes perfect sense, considering that Jesus is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world. When we read Isaiah 53, the sole purpose of the crucifixion becomes crystal clear: that Messiah Jesus had to die for the sins of the world.

    John19:39-42 - And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

    Jesus said that He would be in the grave three days and three nights and then He would rise again.

    I will explain my position of why Jesus died on Thursday. Follow me closely here. Let it sink in:

    Jesus Died on Thursday
    Buried on Thursday .. in the grave already on thursday night = 1 night
    In Tomb all day on Friday and Friday night = 2 nights
    All day Saturday and then Saturday night= 3 nights


    Rising again on Sunday morning....before dawn. Remember the "Three nights" part is the key to understanding the day in which Jesus was crucified.

    Matthew 28:1-6 "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay."

    The "Wednesday night group," who suggest that Jesus arose on Saturday evening are missing a key verse. Notice above that "as it began to dawn." The Greek word means "grow light." It would not be getting light out on Saturday evening, just the opposite.

    We must conclude that Jesus was crucified on Thursday, the day of preparation for the Passover. He died the very hour the lambs were being slaughtered.

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  22. #19
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Using roman weeks for a Jewish calendar is a bit off.

    Jewish weeks have seven days, day 1 is the first day, day 7 is the last day and day of rest (Sabbath).

    Passover starts on the 15th day of the first month of the Jewish calendar and goes for 7 days (8 in some groups).

    A day new day starts at sunset, not on sunrise or midnight. Sun goes down, new day starts.

    That means the 14th is the night before the meal which is when you prepare the food, and at sunset you start the Sabbath and have the Sadder meal and have the day of rest.

    So to obey the Sabbath Jesus has to be in the tomb and prepped by end of sunlight on the 14th. (day 6 of the week or Saturday evening if you must use the roman calendar analogy)

    Day after the Sabbath after dark means morning on day 1 which would be Monday morning in our roman analogy. (Sabbath ends Sunday night but in this case we are looking at morning hours on that day so that's Monday for us)

    So he's in the tomb for 2 nights and 1 day. Not 3 nights and 3 days. If you go in the day before Sabbath (Saturday Afternoon) and come out the morning after Sabbath (Monday Morning) that is the only way it works out.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  23. #20
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    Re: The only sign Christ gave...null n void

    Quote Originally Posted by lindlkeller View Post
    When we stick to the Word of God, the answers become concise.

    Are you concerned about the day Christ died?

    Christianity is not for everyone . Those who are not chosen will always deny God's truth. nothing new here. But for purposes of claification ,read the following :

    Jesus died at around 3:00pm (Luke 23:44) in the afternoon right about the time when the passover lambs were being slaughtered in preparation for the Passover. After Jesus gave up the ghost and died, we read in John 19:31 that the Jews went to Pilate requesting that the legs of those crucified be broken to quicken their death. Pilate gives the order and the soldiers broke the legs of the two thieves but they did not brake Jesus' legs (Psalm 34:20) (Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12) because they found Jesus was already dead so they pierced (Zechariah 12:10) His side instead and blood and water flowed (John 19:34.)

    Isaiah 53:6-7 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

    Jesus died at the exact time when the Passover lambs were being slain in Jerusalem. This makes perfect sense, considering that Jesus is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world. When we read Isaiah 53, the sole purpose of the crucifixion becomes crystal clear: that Messiah Jesus had to die for the sins of the world.

    John19:39-42 - And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

    Jesus said that He would be in the grave three days and three nights and then He would rise again.

    I will explain my position of why Jesus died on Thursday. Follow me closely here. Let it sink in:

    Jesus Died on Thursday
    Buried on Thursday .. in the grave already on thursday night = 1 night
    In Tomb all day on Friday and Friday night = 2 nights
    All day Saturday and then Saturday night= 3 nights


    Rising again on Sunday morning....before dawn. Remember the "Three nights" part is the key to understanding the day in which Jesus was crucified.

    Matthew 28:1-6 "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay."

    The "Wednesday night group," who suggest that Jesus arose on Saturday evening are missing a key verse. Notice above that "as it began to dawn." The Greek word means "grow light." It would not be getting light out on Saturday evening, just the opposite.

    We must conclude that Jesus was crucified on Thursday, the day of preparation for the Passover. He died the very hour the lambs were being slaughtered.
    First of all...show me one place where the Passover is called a Sabbath...u can't

    Second...how do we know it's the weekly Sabbath (Saturday)...because the next day was called the first day of the week (Sunday)...

    Third... we look at Luke (which you chose) then we clearly see the confusion of even his followers...
    Luke 24:1-4 KJV

    Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

    They came to anoint him and were PERPLEXED that he was gone...if he was "on schedule" they wouldn't even have come to anoint him knowing he was gone...They even would've been like "he kept his word he us risen"...but they didn't...why?

    Fourth...Isaiah 53 is not speaking about Christ...Christ was not a Passover lamb...The Passover lamb was ALWAYS a female...WITHOUT BLEMISH...it's speaking of his chosen...Israel...we can get into that later...

    Fifth...I'm not worried about thr day Christ died...I'm more worried people following the foolishness...I follow Torah and Torah teaches that every man dies OF HIS OWN SINS...

    Do u still agree he died on
    Thursday@3:00...?

    Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

 

 
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